Should Christians Recognize and Participate on Christmas?

[betsy]

Betsy I would say this and take it with a grain of salt considering I am a Jew. You and I and many others from a modern perspective know

many things about ALL organized religions may be scientifically absurd or defective or the result of misreprsentations or distortions or deviations from what was actually said. We read. We question. We seek answers to contradictions. Ou instincts tell us rigid dogma may not be sincere.

So yah on one level I hear you loud and clear and applaud your courage to openly question that which you think needs to be questioned and reformed or reconciled with what you truly believe and strongly applaud you for doing that. To question is to exist. It is the very reason I believe we are created-to exercise individual fere will. (that is only my opinion)

On the other hand, I also appreciate you have strong religious beliefs. Why not? The two of course go hand in hand. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't your religion say in the end it is between you and God/Jesus how you care to apply their teachings?

So I say, just because you question certain traditions or rituals, doesn't mean you still don't respect them or religion, etc.

Its possible to balance the two. That is what you are doing..so I say go for it...question, reform, reconcile, balance.

For me when I get into huge debates with alleged Christians or Jews I say-I have no problem with what Jesus or the prophets may have said-I only have problems with humans who are so confident they know what they said.

Me I criticize Judaism the exact same reason I do Christianity. I believe both the old and new testaments were rewritten from their original versions by men who edited and re-edited them so I do not take them literally, simply as parables.

That is why I say, to me, the Bible is man written. In the end, its what you believe that counts not what some old men wrote down thousands of years ago. In the end how you relate to God/Jesus, etc., is an individual thing you must create and whatever that is, I respect its sanctity because its you its who you are and that is good enough for me.

I make no claims to being a righteous or holy man. I am just an ordinary shmuck. But I do know how you choose to believe, is a highly individual and precious thing and I can't imagine not admiring it in you or anyone else.

So keep creating your own beliefs to deal with any contradictions you feel. Trust yourself to find the right answers.

As for me. I can deal with Mel Gibson. But that movie is just a tad sick for my tastesl.

Yes, I agree Rue that with all the various interpretations and contradictions we see around us, in the end we have to rely on our own selves to find the right answers. Perhaps this is what God has meant for us to do hence we are given free wills and the capacity to think...and why Jesus warned us about those who will try to decieve, or those who claim to speak in His name.

[buffycat]

Christmas and Easter are both adopted pagan rituals - these ceremonies and events were incorporated into early christianity to make the 'change' easier for the 'pagans' to accept.

Let people celebrate what they wish, I don't think the FSM will object.

BTW any kind of G-d which rules by instilling fear is not worth my time or energy - nor do any of its followers (ie sheep).

All of these religions are based on older beliefs, you might want to read up on Horus, Mises (sp) et al to get an idea where all these stories come from.

Religion is meant to divide us - thus making it easier to attain power over people and fight the wars which all consuming power requires. It has little to do with spirituality IMO.

[M.Dancer]

Christmas and Easter are both adopted pagan rituals -

The dates overlap defunct pagan holidays but the rituals are far from pagan. Keep in mind a christmas tree is not a ritual nor was it a popular (poplar?) feature in non nordic countries. As a matter of fact, in most of the christian world, christmas takes a lesser place to Easter.

The easter rituals, the palms, stations of the cross and communion are not pagan in the least.

[M.Dancer]

I'm supposed to be a Roman Catholic, however I'm afraid I'm a very poor example of one.

I'm supposed to be an Anglo Catholic, but at least I speak better anglo than Roman........

[M.Dancer]

The christmas celebrations now are still paganistic in so many ways. Christians try to cling to our own interpretation of this celebration....but aren't we just trying to make an excuse? Justifying its continued existence when there is no more threat of persecutions?

I know some who make special efforts on christmas to get the family to mass on the eve as well as on Christmas day and they always try to instill in their children that they should never forget the christ in christmas.

And having two myself and seeing what greed and envy can do to 2 small kids on christmas morning, I can fully understand their desire. Christmas without Christ is noting more than a consumerist ritual that eats the very core of your soul. Honestly I sometimes hate Christmas for what it's become. I would rather receive nothing other than my childrens health, a fat slab of tourtier and a weel off to go tobboganing with them.

[buffycat]

The dates overlap defunct pagan holidays but the rituals are far from pagan. Keep in mind a christmas tree is not a ritual nor was it a popular (poplar?) feature in non nordic countries. As a matter of fact, in most of the christian world, christmas takes a lesser place to Easter.

The easter rituals, the palms, stations of the cross and communion are not pagan in the least.

The eggs are, as too the whole name derived from Ostere (sp) and her sacred animal the hare (hence the easter bunny) AFAIR it is Saxon in origin - though I'd have to check. Dancer there is nothing new under the Son (Sun) - it's all recycled.

[jefferiah]

The eggs are, as too the whole name derived from Ostere (sp) and her sacred animal the hare (hence the easter bunny) AFAIR it is Saxon in origin - though I'd have to check. Dancer there is nothing new under the Son (Sun) - it's all recycled.

Thats a seperate entity from strict Christian Easter. That's like saying Santa Claus and the elves are part of Christian doctrine.

[M.Dancer]

The eggs are, as too the whole name derived from Ostere (sp) and her sacred animal the hare (hence the easter bunny) AFAIR it is Saxon in origin - though I'd have to check. Dancer there is nothing new under the Son (Sun) - it's all recycled.

Eggs are not an easter ritual. Eggs are an easter tradition. There's a big difference. Eggs are also part of the Greek orthodox trqadition, which has zero to do with the Saxons and the Greek traditions have no easter bunny.

Easter is an anglo-German experiance, the rest of the Christian world call it by a more appropriate name*, which translates to....Passover

*

Pâques -French

pascua -Spanish

Pasen -Dutch

pasqua -Italian

[jefferiah]

I am a Catholic, and you gave a precise example of one I'm also questioning now.

Praying to the saints....or even to the Virgin Mary....may be going against the law of God. Thou shalt not have other gods before me.

Praying to others may be falling under the category of "worship".

Praying before their statues may also be interpreted as praying to idols.

I'm also questioning the different prayers. Jesus had given only one: The Lord's Prayer.

What's your take on this?

I agree with you, but I am a protestant (and I am not a very good example of one either I am afraid). I don't believe the NT placed this much reverence on Mary. Neither did the disciples mention her as a vital part of the faith in their epistles to churches they had established. She is not mentioned once by them. They focused on Jesus himself, and their doctrine was very simple---Christ crucified. Also there is nothing in the Bible which sets the standard for qualifying saints. Who chooses who gets to be sainted? And then who chooses what they are patron saints of?

The New Testament says Peter was married, and if he was also the first "pope", well.....

And another problem I feel is important are the doctrines concerning transubstantiation. This was not an original Christian doctrine, nor is it scriptural. It was decreed by Pope Innocent in 1215 A.D., that the magical priests ordained by the organized Catholic church have the ability to perform the miracle of changing the communion wafer into the actual body of Christ. And a few years later adoration of the wafer was sanctioned. Salvation is dependent upon the wafer, according to Catholic doctrine, therefore salvation rests in the hands of the Holy Roman Empire. Pope Innocent solidified the power of the church over people in a few pen strokes.

"Heretics", who despised his teaching, were to be burned. But as Martin Luther once said of the Empire Church...."They have never actually burned a heretic." They burned the people who stuck to the truth.

[M.Dancer]

Neither did the disciples mention her as a vital part of the faith in their epistles to churches they had established.

On then otherhand, they didn't mention each other too often either.....and the authorship of the various epistles is in no conclusive, that the writer of, say James, was James of the Gospel or that all the letters of Paul were by Saul of Tarsus.

What is believed is that the Marys were central to the organization of the church (bake sales, raffles no doubt ...and may have bankrolled its operations.

But again, considering that the Gospels put her as the "Mother of Our Lord" 'His Handmaiden" and "all generations shall call me Blessed"...might not have been a lot to add.....

[jefferiah]

On then otherhand, they didn't mention each other too often either.....and the authorship of the various epistles is in no conclusive, that the writer of, say James, was James of the Gospel or that all the letters of Paul were by Saul of Tarsus.

What is believed is that the Marys were central to the organization of the church (bake sales, raffles no doubt ...and may have bankrolled its operations.

But again, considering that the Gospels put her as the "Mother of Our Lord" 'His Handmaiden" and "all generations shall call me Blessed"...might not have been a lot to add.....

Still though I can see quite a distinction between being called blessed, and being prayed to for intercession before God. And in which gospel is it said Mother of our Lord? Jesus called her "woman".

Blessed means something is bestowed upon you, and the one doing the blessing is much greater. Jacob was blessed.

Edited August 23, 2007 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

There is nothing scriptural which says Mary is the mother of God. There is nothing which says she is the "new Eve". These are Catholic additions. The disciples preached that salvation comes under one name.

Yet Catholicism says:

"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969

"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494

"She (Mary) is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son." Pg. 303, #1172

"Those who spread the word about the glory of Mary are certain of Heaven." -- St. Bonaventure.

"Whoever asks and expects to obtain graces, without the intercession of Mary, is attempting to fly without having wings."

Doesn't this go beyond being blessed?

Mary was the one who described herself as a handmaiden and that was uncapitalized. She thanked God for recognizing her and choosing her even though she was just his lowly handmaiden. That is not Handmaiden of God. When someone calls himself a lowly servant of God, does that make him The One and Only Sacred Blessed Servant of God of Immaculate Compassionate Heart Pyjamas and Apple Pies of the Mysterious Blessed Heart?

Edited August 23, 2007 by jefferiah

[jbg]

There is nothing scriptural which says Mary is the mother of God. There is nothing which says she is the "new Eve". These are Catholic additions. The disciples preached that salvation comes under one name.

Boney M. - Mary's Boy Child (link to lyrics)

Artist: Boney M.

Mary's boy child Jesus Christ, was born on Christmas Day.

And man will live for evermore, because of Christmas Day.

Long time ago in Bethlehem, so the Holy Bible say,

Mary's boy child Jesus Christ, was born on Christmas Day.

Hark, now hear the angels sing, a king was born today,

And man will live for evermore, because of Christmas Day.

Mary's boy child Jesus Christ, was born on Christmas Day.

While shepherds watch their flocks by night,

they see a bright new shining star,

they hear a choir sing a song, the music seem to come from afar.

Hark, now hear the angels sing, a king was born today,

And man will live for evermore, because of Christmas Day.

For a moment the world was aglow, all the bells rang out

there were tears of joy and laughter, people shouted

"Let everyone know, there is hope for all to find peace."

Now Joseph and his wife, Mary, came to Bethlehem that night,

they found no place to bear her child, not a single room was in sight.

Hark, now hear the angels sing, a king was born today,

And man will live for evermore, because of Christmas Day.

Mary's boy child Jesus Christ, was born on Christmas Day.

Oh a moment still worth was a glow, all the bells rang out

there were tears of joy and laughter, people shouted

"let everyone know, there is hope for all to find peace".

Edited August 23, 2007 by jbg

[jefferiah]

If all the world is a stage, then Maple Leaf Web must be a musical. After a little dialogue you can always count on someone to spontaneously burst into song.

[M.Dancer]

I used to live with a jewish girl and around X-mas I would tease her mercilessly

We would sing carols like the above and when it came to the refrain she would have to sing:

And man will live for evermore, because of Christmas Day.

if she wanted to get any stuffing......

for some reason we didn't last together....?

[jbg]

I used to live with a jewish girl and around X-mas I would tease her mercilessly

We would sing carols like the above and when it came to the refrain she would have to sing:

And man will live for evermore, because of Christmas Day.

if she wanted to get any stuffing......

for some reason we didn't last together....?

Hark!!!

[Leafless]

The easter rituals, the palms, stations of the cross and communion are not pagan in the least.

You are wrong.

The very name Easter is derived from Ishtar or Astarte, a pagan goddess.

[Leafless]

However, it must come with age.....contemplating and discussing about God with my husband quite more these days.

The christmas tree is pagan-based.

In the 7th century a monk from Crediton, Devonshire, went to Germany to teach the Word of God. He did many good works there, and spent much time in Thuringia, an area which was to become the cradle of the Christmas Decoration Industry. Legend has it that he used the triangular shape of the Fir Tree to describe the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The converted people began to refer to the Fir tree as God's Tree. By the 12th century it was being hung, upside-down, from ceilings at Christmastime in Central Europe, as a symbol of Christianity.

The fact that the christmas day we celebrate is not really the birthdate of Jesus, but apparently was a day for pagan celebrations in the old days. I'm not sure how Christians came to celebrate it as the birthday of Jesus.

Germanic tribes of Northern Europe also celebrated mid-winter with feasting, drinking, religious rituals and the lighting of the yule log. During the Middle Ages, Catholic priests sought connections between biblical teachings and pagan traditions - believing that a convergence of customs would lead more individuals to Christianity. The celebration of Jesus' birth was melded into other age-old practices and became known as the "Christ mass." Firelight represented the light of Christ. Gift giving was linked to the presents of the wise men. Trees were decorated with apples associated with the biblical Garden of Eden.

I'm not sure how Christians came to celebrate it as the birthday of Jesus.

Germanic tribes of Northern Europe also celebrated mid-winter with feasting, drinking, religious rituals and the lighting of the yule log. During the Middle Ages, Catholic priests sought connections between biblical teachings and pagan traditions - believing that a convergence of customs would lead more individuals to Christianity. The celebration of Jesus' birth was combined into other age-old practices and became known as the "Christ mass." Firelight represented the light of Christ. Gift giving was linked to the presents of the wise men. Trees were decorated with apples associated with the biblical Garden of Eden.

I am wondering if we, as Christians, are unwittingly (although with good intentions on our part) going against God by celebrating christmas.

Simply because a holiday was once celebrated by pagans does not make the believer guilty of worship by association. If I celebrate Jesus' birthday at Christmas time, this is a good practice. I am doing it "to the Lord," not to a pagan god who no on remembers or knows anything about that god.

[M.Dancer]

You are wrong.

The very name Easter is derived from Ishtar or Astarte, a pagan goddess.

Yeah, and in all the languages of Christendom, how many call the time of the crucifiction Easter?

And the appelation of Easter, being so geographically limited has nothing to do with Palms or stations....

[jefferiah]

Good point Leafless. The meaning of the holiday is determined by the one who celebrates it.

But also, in Dancer's defense, he was not wrong. He said the rites, palms, stations of the Cross, etc., were not pagan. He did not say anything about the name. Except that he called them Easter Rituals.

[M.Dancer]

Good point Leafless. The meaning of the holiday is determined by the one who celebrates it.

But also, in Dancer's defense, he was not wrong. He said the rites, palms, stations of the Cross, etc., were not pagan. He did not say anything about the name. Except that he called them Easter Rituals.

Maybe I should start refering to it a Christian Passover.

[Rue]

I'm supposed to be a Roman Catholic, however I'm afraid I'm a very poor example of one.

I think your willingness to question and challenge and seek answers makes you a good example

for others. But then Mel says I am a murderer so what the f..ck do I know. Never question

your spirituality simply because you have the integrity to question and exercise your free will!

That is admirable so there.

[jefferiah]

I think your willingness to question and challenge and seek answers makes you a good example

for others. But then Mel says I am a murderer so what the f..ck do I know. Never question

your spirituality simply because you have the integrity to question and exercise your free will!

That is admirable so there.

Well, Rue, for future reference, Jesus was Jewish, so were his original followers who brought the faith to Europe. The Romans were present. The Romans flogged Him, and nailed Him up. The point of the Passion (maybe not Mel's version...I do not know) in general is not that Jews killed Jesus. Although it has been portrayed that way. But if anyone says this stuff to you, you can point out to them that Jesus was Jewish and so were his followers. The whole New Testament was written by descendants of Jacob.

I think if you believe in Jesus, you have to understand that he would have met the same end anywhere else in the world. It just so happens he was an Israelite.

[Rue]

Well, Rue, for future reference, Jesus was Jewish, so were his original followers who brought the faith to Europe. The Romans were present. The Romans flogged Him, and nailed Him up. The point of the Passion (maybe not Mel's version...I do not know) in general is not that Jews killed Jesus. Although it has been portrayed that way. But if anyone says this stuff to you, you can point out to them that Jesus was Jewish and so were his followers. The whole New Testament was written by descendants of Jacob.

I think if you believe in Jesus, you have to understand that he would have met the same end anywhere else in the world. It just so happens he was an Israelite.

LOL I think you might find most of us Jews know Jesus was a Rabbia. ( Jackie Mason too)