Judeo-Christian Ethics; The Gift That Keeps on Giving

[Guest American Woman]

You just spoke in absolutes concerning the Chinese when you say you don't understand those who speak in absolutes.

I am certainly willing to let others make their own life decisions, and wanting to explain some things about God in response to certain critical comments doesn't mean I am forcing God on anyone.

Saying *I* find the Chinese to be wonderful people is an opinion, not an absolute; so I was stating an opinion, not declaring something as fact-- and making an observation about the Chinese most certainly isn't the same as speaking in absolutes regarding beliefs that cannot be proven or disproven. Furthermore, I didn't in any way, shape, or form even so much as insinuate that you were trying to force God on anyone.

[Higgly]

There is a fundamental difference between Jews and Christians. Christianity preaches "turn the other cheek", while Judaism preaches "an eye for an eye."

[jbg]

There is a fundamental difference between Jews and Christians. Christianity preaches "turn the other cheek", while Judaism preaches "an eye for an eye."

"An eye for an eye" in practice evolved fast into monetary equivalents.

[cybercoma]

What if I don't "comprehend the reality of god"? Will I not be able to calm down? Do I need god to calm down? Of course not. I am responsible for my actions and reactions, not god.

Actually, I'm a little more offended by the comment, "his reality makes you want to do what is right". That's to say that those who do not believe in god don't want to do what is right. We're completely incapable of doing what is right. Not only is that idea just plain wrong, it's pretty insulting.

[sharkman]

Actually, I'm a little more offended by the comment, "his reality makes you want to do what is right". That's to say that those who do not believe in god don't want to do what is right. We're completely incapable of doing what is right. Not only is that idea just plain wrong, it's pretty insulting.

No it's not, you are looking for insults and making assumptions, something you seem to do when discussing God for some reason.

Haven't you ever been in a situation where you don't know which is the right thing to do? I must profess weakness to you since this happens to me every so often, and obviously you know the right thing in every single instance you have ever been in.

It must be nice.

[Argus]

Are you saying the only reason you don't do terrible things is because God is watching you?

Either your sense of morality comes from religion, or it comes from the greater culture around you. And the greater culture around us isn't necessarily very good at imparting moral lessons these days.

[Argus]

Not everyone "needs" God in their lives. For example, China is an atheist nation and I find the Chinese to be wonderful people, so they seem to be doing ok without God in their lives.

The Chinese people, as embodied by their government, are pretty much savages; barbarians. They are capable of immense cruelty, and have perpetrated it throughout their long history on vast numbers of people. At the moment they are engaged in ethnic cleansing in at least two regions, and their abortion policy as carried out on the local level often includes forced abortions and the murder of babies as they are born. Bride stealing, a term which describes how an unmarried young woman is kidnapped and repeatedly raped by a man with the aid of his family - and thus is forced to marry him because no one else will have her - is a growing problem because of the shortage of women. Men and women have been found to be kept as slaves in numerous areas by factory owners who work them like dogs, beat them like animals, and starve them. In every war in which they have been involved the Chinese have engaged in the torture and abuse of prisoners on a vast scale.

Tell me again about how wonderful the Chinese people are.

Why do so many people have to think they are right instead of just respecting people's beliefs?

If you're talking about foreign cultural beliefs, most of them are primitive, because most world cultures are a generation or ten behind the West in sophistication, enlightenment and maturity.

[Argus]

Im not saying people who believe in human rights cannot hold the bible dear. Im just saying that if such things were inspired by the bible they would have taken place long before the last two centuries. The bible certainly has not changed, but peopel did, for reasons unconnected to religion.

Andrew

I would say that the Christian religion allowed people and society to change, where others have not. Western culture, the enlightenment, came about hand in hand with Christianity and each inspired more tolerance in the other. There are many, many messages in the bible which speak of loving thy neighbor, of peace and tolerance and forgiveness, so many it is impossible, once literacy became more widespread, for more and more people to not begin to believe that many of the cultural values of their society were out of step with what should be proper morality. This process, which, due to their vast influence in the arts, culture and entertainment, has incorporated much of the more enlightened teachings of Judaism, as well, has been ongoing for a while now but really has accelerated the last century, as literacy really became widespread.

Even those who are not religious today, who know little of the bible and don't go to church, live in a society which has been, in large part, created in tandem with this phenomenon, and thus incorporates much of the values taught by the bible.

[Argus]

Show me an example please.

MLK got his non-violence from Ghandi who got it from Jainism. He got his desire for freedom from the secular american constitution. MLK was not an author of the bible. He is far too recent. lol...

You are referring to the reverend Martin Luther King? His tactics might have been inspired by Ghandi, but his respect for others, his belief in the fundamental value of all humans came from his religion

Let us, as an example, examine African American culture - which turned into Black culture - which is now turning into Nigger culture.

African Americans were extremely religious. Their communities, by and large, in the first half of the last century, were clean and law-abiding. Harlem was an exceptionally good neighbourhood in New York! Now look at it. Look at what the current "nigger culture" has wrought on the Black community. It is the antithesis of morality and religion. It preaches self interest above all else, it worships consumerism, things, money, gold, diamonds. It praises violence and open sex. In fact, one could suggest that the culture as preached by hip-hop artists today, who are the driving focus in the Black community, is basically Sodom and Gomorrah. There was an interesting feature on 60 minutes recently, about the growing phenomenon of black community members refusing to speak to police about crimes. This has existed for a long time among poor communities, but is becoming almost fashionable as "stop snitching" is preached by rap artists and drummed into the heads of the young that snitching to police about any crime is worse than the crime itself. Some idiot rapper was even interviewed stating he wouldn't tell police if he knew a serial killer was living next door, and young blacks responded that everyone would hate you and that it just "ain't cool" to snitch to police. In some communities the crime solution rate for murders is now in single digits.

Does not not give you some idea of what happens to a community which has nothing to drive its morality

[jefferiah]

Actually, I'm a little more offended by the comment, "his reality makes you want to do what is right". That's to say that those who do not believe in god don't want to do what is right. We're completely incapable of doing what is right. Not only is that idea just plain wrong, it's pretty insulting.

If you do not believe, then why should it offend you. Really why is it that people feel the need to object to "terms" and such. And yes you are also jumping to a conclusion.

A simple question for you....

How many threads slamming atheists have been started here in the last 5 months?

[Guest American Woman]

The Chinese people, as embodied by their government, are pretty much savages; barbarians. They are capable of immense cruelty, and have perpetrated it throughout their long history on vast numbers of people. At the moment they are engaged in ethnic cleansing in at least two regions, and their abortion policy as carried out on the local level often includes forced abortions and the murder of babies as they are born. Bride stealing, a term which describes how an unmarried young woman is kidnapped and repeatedly raped by a man with the aid of his family - and thus is forced to marry him because no one else will have her - is a growing problem because of the shortage of women. Men and women have been found to be kept as slaves in numerous areas by factory owners who work them like dogs, beat them like animals, and starve them. In every war in which they have been involved the Chinese have engaged in the torture and abuse of prisoners on a vast scale.

Tell me again about how wonderful the Chinese people are.

I said "I find the Chinese to be wonderful people," and I do. They are not responsible for what their government does or what factory owners do any more than I am. I accept the people as the individuals that they are, and do not dismiss highly intelligent, kind people as "barbarians" and "savages" because of the acts of someone else or because of their "long history" any more than I expect to be judged by how Native Americans were treated or America's history of slavery etc. If we go back into nations' "long historys," we'd all have a lot to be held accountable for. And while we're at it, let's not forget to mention how American corporations are practically engaging the Chinese in 'slave labor' with the wages and conditions of American factories over there, and how some of our government officials not only turn a blind eye to it, but applaud those who run the factories.

[margrace]

You are referring to the reverend Martin Luther King? His tactics might have been inspired by Ghandi, but his respect for others, his belief in the fundamental value of all humans came from his religion

Let us, as an example, examine African American culture - which turned into Black culture - which is now turning into Nigger culture.

African Americans were extremely religious. Their communities, by and large, in the first half of the last century, were clean and law-abiding. Harlem was an exceptionally good neighbourhood in New York! Now look at it. Look at what the current "nigger culture" has wrought on the Black community. It is the antithesis of morality and religion. It preaches self interest above all else, it worships consumerism, things, money, gold, diamonds. It praises violence and open sex. In fact, one could suggest that the culture as preached by hip-hop artists today, who are the driving focus in the Black community, is basically Sodom and Gomorrah. There was an interesting feature on 60 minutes recently, about the growing phenomenon of black community members refusing to speak to police about crimes. This has existed for a long time among poor communities, but is becoming almost fashionable as "stop snitching" is preached by rap artists and drummed into the heads of the young that snitching to police about any crime is worse than the crime itself. Some idiot rapper was even interviewed stating he wouldn't tell police if he knew a serial killer was living next door, and young blacks responded that everyone would hate you and that it just "ain't cool" to snitch to police. In some communities the crime solution rate for murders is now in single digits.

Does not not give you some idea of what happens to a community which has nothing to drive its morality

Aren't you describing how the white culture in a lot of instances has always behaved. You are forgetting who were the original slave owners aren't you?

[Argus]

Aren't you describing how the white culture in a lot of instances has always behaved. You are forgetting who were the original slave owners aren't you?

All groups have barbarism in their past. What matters is the present.

[White Doors]

You are forgetting who were the original slave owners aren't you?

that would be the arabs, no?

[Higgly]

that would be the arabs, no?

Slaves go back to the days of the first African cultures. The Aztecs had slaves and so did the peoples of Polynesia.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

"An eye for an eye" in practice evolved fast into monetary equivalents.

You are going to have to explain this. You lost me.

[jbg]

You are going to have to explain this. You lost me.

Monetary fines and damages swiftly replaced direct retribution.

[jbg]

All groups have barbarism in their past. What matters is the present.

Some cultures have gone further to eradicate barbarity than others. Some have if anything gotten worse over the years.

[M.Dancer]

There is a fundamental difference between Jews and Christians. Christianity preaches "turn the other cheek", while Judaism preaches "an eye for an eye."

Actually no. There is no fundamental difference here. Turn the other cheek isn't new to christianity. Jesus did not invent the concept, he mined the Jewish old testament for the source.

He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach

Lamentations 3:30

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Lev. 19:18

[jbg]

M. Dancer, thanks. I did not know those citations.

Edited August 24, 2007 by jbg

[M.Dancer]

M. Dancer, thanks. I did not know those citatins.

just the product of a misspent youth.....

I should add though that Jesus was a Rabbi and like many Rabbis he quotes freely and adds commentaries to the scriptures.

Jesus didn't really say anything new, although he did say it in new ways.

But in the end, Christianity is merely a Jewish sect that was very successful at proselytizing

Edited August 22, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Higgly]

Pheh. Jesus is the Son of God who came into the world to die for our sins. You, on the other hand Dancer, are a blasphemer and an apostate. See how easy that is? Isn't religion fun?

Edited August 23, 2007 by Higgly

[Rue]

There is no such thing as "chosen People" that is just religious quackery.

No its not quackery its you misunderstanding the Jewish religion. Chosen does not refer to anyone being special. or better. Rather then misrepresenting and misunderstanding the concept, go find out what "chosen" really means. See before you go off on tangents about how religions are full of shit, find out what the shit is you think you are criticizing.

Speaking about quackery I personally believe all organized religions by their very nature are defective since they are created and promulgated by humans.

As for all this talk in this series of postsabout whethr its anotomically correct to stick a piccolo up the Love Canal let's put it this way,

in Ottawa when you turn your back and they screw you they call it politics and no one condemns that although we know politics from a moral point of view is questionable. Why the double standard?

More to the point, JBG don't you find politicians hard to swallow?

[Rue]

Hey wait a second. Now I get it...turn the other cheek...

[M.Dancer]

Pheh. Jesus is the Son of God who came into the world to die for our sins. You, on the other hand Dancer, are a blasphemer and an apostate. See how easy that is? Isn't religion fun?

Don't you mean ignorance and stupidity? And you are right, you are amusing