Judeo-Christian Ethics; The Gift That Keeps on Giving

[jbg]

A poster on another forum, in connection with her post about the re-igniting persecution of British Jews stated:

I still cannot comprehend why Jews are so persecuted.

It is pure insanity. There is a large Jewish population here in Panama and whenever I see them about, I honestly think to myself they are special for not ever giving up.

When Jews were made G-d's Chosen People, G-d didn't say for what they were chosen. My own thinking is for never giving up, for being educated, successful, and envied. The latter equals being hated.

Malcontents who cannot achieve on their own feed on conspiracy theories. And what more natural target of a conspiracy theory than a group which is generally literate, well-educated, well-behaved, well-regarded and orderly, whether in New York City, Toronto, London, Kingston (Jamaica), Continental Europe (before they were butchered), Australia or wherever. Similarly, Israel is a modern, orderly democracy, which the neighboring countries are hell-holes of intrigue, grinding poverty and internecine violence.

No wonder Jews are envied. They have things other people can't figure out how to get. Another poster correctly responded that "the Jews have adhered to religious tenets that work for them since long before Christianity came into being. There is a solid argument for adhering to fundamental Judaeo-Christian teachings. Those who stray eventually pay".

The consequences of straying from the Judeo-Christian ethic, that has created most of what is great about the Anglosphere, are easy to see:

Exhibit:

1. Sexual and social revolution of late 60's/early 70's;
   1. 
      
   2. Spiraling divorce rates;
      
   3. Rising crime;
      
   4. Delinquency;
      
   5. Demands for "gay rights";
      
   6. AIDS;
      
   7. Herpes;
      
   8. Crack;
      
   9. Heroin
      

[*]Islam

1. Intrigue;
   
2. Violene;
   
3. Chaos;
   
4. Dictatorship;
   
5. Grinding poverty
   

One can quibble about the details. One cannot quibble about the big picture on either of those things.

Renwaa, in connection with her posting on the persecution of British Jews, posted these links to about six You-Tube videos. The most worthwhile of these, in my humble opinion are Part 1 and Part 5.

[cybercoma]

What nonsense, Jews are no more special than any other human monkey on this planet.

[cybercoma]

I can't even wrap my head around why some people choose to believe that there is an invisible being in the sky that will punish everyone who does not follow THEIR chosen mythology. Man... this is some truly priceless stuff, right there.

[B. Max]

The consequences of straying from the Judeo-Christian ethic, that has created most of what is great about the Anglosphere, are easy to see:

That is correct.

[jbg]

I can't even wrap my head around why some people choose to believe that there is an invisible being in the sky that will punish everyone who does not follow THEIR chosen mythology. Man... this is some truly priceless stuff, right there.

And your explanation as to why the earth is not patternless chaos, resulting from the tendency towards entropy is???

[jbg]

The consequences of straying from the Judeo-Christian ethic, that has created most of what is great about the Anglosphere, are easy to see:

That is correct.

Thank you. I'm a bit disappointed that the other responses were ad hominem responses rather than ones addressed to serious issues.

[Argus]

I can't even wrap my head around why some people choose to believe that there is an invisible being in the sky that will punish everyone who does not follow THEIR chosen mythology. Man... this is some truly priceless stuff, right there.

I don't think you even have to consider the religious nature of what he was saying, or whether or not there is a God. It suffices that those who believe there is adhere to a cultural pattern, or have long adhered to a cultural pattern, regardless of their personal religious beliefs. Jewish culture - if you can use that term and I think you can - emphasizes family, education and responsibility. And the great majority of Jews have bought into this culture, and as a result tend to be rather more successful in life than those who have no similar belief structure, and simply do whatever feels good at any given moment. Jewish parents, by and large, put a lot more work into raising their young than the more lackadaisical parenting which has come about since the sixties, especially with regard to education and instilling morals in their children.

If one can contrast with what you might call "Muslim culture", which truly is religious in nature, that culture emphasizes God above all else, submission to God, observance of God's rules, learning about God, and sacrificing all on His behalf. It, and not family or responsibility, is the main focus of their lives. And this also includes harsh judgments for all about them who fail to adhere to "god's will". The only education stressed is education about Allah and the Koran. And while I would say hard work is no stranger to Muslim culture, the downfall has been their lack of real education, and the violence brought about by the zealous attempts to not only adhere to what they believe is Allah's will, but to force others to, as well.

[cybercoma]

I don't think you even have to consider the religious nature of what he was saying, or whether or not there is a God. It suffices that those who believe there is adhere to a cultural pattern, or have long adhered to a cultural pattern, regardless of their personal religious beliefs. Jewish culture - if you can use that term and I think you can - emphasizes family, education and responsibility. And the great majority of Jews have bought into this culture, and as a result tend to be rather more successful in life than those who have no similar belief structure, and simply do whatever feels good at any given moment. Jewish parents, by and large, put a lot more work into raising their young than the more lackadaisical parenting which has come about since the sixties, especially with regard to education and instilling morals in their children.

If one can contrast with what you might call "Muslim culture", which truly is religious in nature, that culture emphasizes God above all else, submission to God, observance of God's rules, learning about God, and sacrificing all on His behalf. It, and not family or responsibility, is the main focus of their lives. And this also includes harsh judgments for all about them who fail to adhere to "god's will". The only education stressed is education about Allah and the Koran. And while I would say hard work is no stranger to Muslim culture, the downfall has been their lack of real education, and the violence brought about by the zealous attempts to not only adhere to what they believe is Allah's will, but to force others to, as well.

And that's fair if there is a truly "jewish" culture for raising their kids; however, I think most people adopt the culture of the nations they are raised in. I was born and raised in Canada, regardless of my ethnicity, I've adopted the culture of Canada.

My response was to jbg posting this quote:

"There is a solid argument for adhering to fundamental Judaeo-Christian teachings. Those who stray eventually pay"

To me, that is a direct threat to those who wish to either 1) not believe in any sort of religious dogma or 2) believe in something other than a Judeo-Christian God (which is what Muslim believe in as well anyway...) and what Jews and Christians believe is his will.

I find it disgusting and inaccurate that someone would say AIDS, floods, or any other type of disaster or suffering is caused by an invisible man in the sky, when we know exactly what causes these things. Those bishops from the Church of England pulled this exact same stunt with the floods they were having over there. They said it was God's way of condemning a nation that supports pro-gay legislation.

Well, excuse me for not believing there is a God who would punish innocent people because the government refuses to discriminate against homosexuals. They're people like the rest of us and its appalling that they're viewed as sub-human by religious types. Jews and Christians aren't as bad as Muslims who murder homosexuals or standby and do nothing while they're murdered in their country, but saying that AIDS is God's punishment for them is wishing them dead without having the conviction to actually carry out the murder.

This kind of thinking is dangerous for all of society because it creates an in-group/out-group thinking on the worst level. It appeals to those who want the out-group dead or killed. It's only a small step from praising God for killing people with floods and AIDS to carrying out the murders yourself and thinking your an instrument of God's will.

So, you can say it's a cultural thing that makes jews special, and it very well might be (if you can somehow show that they're anymore special than anyone else), but it was the sentence I quoted above that turned my stomach. To say, "those who stray eventually pay" is hate-mongering on the worst level.

[jefferiah]

Well, excuse me for not believing there is a God who would punish innocent people because the government refuses to discriminate against homosexuals. They're people like the rest of us and its appalling that they're viewed as sub-human by religious types.

Incorrect. Homosexuality is viewed as a sin. So is adultery. So is stealing. Churches are filled with people who are sinners according to the Bible which says "No one is righteous." But it is becoming a criminal act to express the belief that homosexuality is a sin. Why is this? If someone believes that eating meat is sinful it does not offend me. I have a choice whether or not I want to adhere to this belief.

[cybercoma]

Incorrect. Homosexuality is viewed as a sin. So is adultery. So is stealing. Churches are filled with people who are sinners according to the Bible which says "No one is righteous." But it is becoming a criminal act to express the belief that homosexuality is a sin. Why is this? If someone believes that eating meat is sinful it does not offend me. I have a choice whether or not I want to adhere to this belief.

This thread is going to fall into another argument about homosexuality, isn't it?

It is not a criminal act to believe that homosexuality is a sin. It is, however, a criminal act to BE a homosexual in some states in the US and it was not legal for people of the same sex to be in love with one another and marry before our western governments and courts realized how ridiculous it to deny people who love one another the same legal rights of partnership as same-sex couples. Calling love a sin is all that needs to be said about Judeo-Christian values and morality, if you ask me.

[B. Max]

This thread is going to fall into another argument about homosexuality, isn't it?

It is not a criminal act to believe that homosexuality is a sin. It is, however, a criminal act to BE a homosexual in some states in the US and it was not legal for people of the same sex to be in love with one another and marry before our western governments and courts realized how ridiculous it to deny people who love one another the same legal rights of partnership as same-sex couples. Calling love a sin is all that needs to be said about Judeo-Christian values and morality, if you ask me.

Calling perversion love is nonsense, and is typical of the twisted thinking of the left. The love of perversion is a sin just as much as the act.

[jbg]

I find it disgusting and inaccurate that someone would say AIDS, floods, or any other type of disaster or suffering is caused by an invisible man in the sky, when we know exactly what causes these things. Those bishops from the Church of England pulled this exact same stunt with the floods they were having over there. They said it was God's way of condemning a nation that supports pro-gay legislation.

That is a total and blatant misrepresenation of what I said. What I said, and meant, was that when the previous patterns of monogamy espoused by the Judeo-Christian culture broke down into a free-form, "do your own thing", "free love", and "feel groovy" the result was predictably disastrous. In 1970, after a Syracuse football game (Syracuse was my mother's alma mater) we walked "fraternity row" and saw a slice of 60's culture. It was a glorious, crisp fall day, but I had a sickening feeling, from what I saw, that we as a country were in for a bad ride. Boy was I right.

Well, excuse me for not believing there is a God who would punish innocent people because the government refuses to discriminate against homosexuals. They're people like the rest of us and its appalling that they're viewed as sub-human by religious types. Jews and Christians aren't as bad as Muslims who murder homosexuals or standby and do nothing while they're murdered in their country, but saying that AIDS is God's punishment for them is wishing them dead without having the conviction to actually carry out the murder.

Again, not what I said. What I said, and meant, was that the human body was not built for anal sexual penetration. The result of use of a human body in an unintended manner for an unintended purpose is akin to smoking cigarettes at a gasoline self-serve. Both are inherently legal (if not totally safe) activities but when combined they are disastrous. Same with using an anus, without the necessary mucous membranes, in the same manner as a vagina. It is not because of G-d I hold these beliefs; it is because believing that these activities are safe defies reason and logic.

So, you can say it's a cultural thing that makes jews special, and it very well might be (if you can somehow show that they're anymore special than anyone else), but it was the sentence I quoted above that turned my stomach. To say, "those who stray eventually pay" is hate-mongering on the worst level.

No, it is telling the straightforward truth.

[sucker punch]

Maybe I read that wrong, but did you intend to imply that 'Demands for "gay rights"' is a negative consequence?

[jbg]

Maybe I read that wrong, but did you intend to imply that 'Demands for "gay rights"' is a negative consequence?

I don't favor discrimination against gays. I don't think it should be encouraged or glamorized either.

[jefferiah]

This thread is going to fall into another argument about homosexuality, isn't it?

It is not a criminal act to believe that homosexuality is a sin. It is, however, a criminal act to BE a homosexual in some states in the US and it was not legal for people of the same sex to be in love with one another and marry before our western governments and courts realized how ridiculous it to deny people who love one another the same legal rights of partnership as same-sex couples. Calling love a sin is all that needs to be said about Judeo-Christian values and morality, if you ask me.

No one can criminalize belief (unless law enforcement can read minds), but that is immaterial because what I said was that it is criminal to express that belief. If you don't believe me look at the cases where people are being sued for saying just that. Do you remember the thread concerning a BC politician who when asked in an interview his views regarding the subject said, in effect, "I think they are entitled to rights and employment and to be treated like anyone else, but I am Catholic and personally I believe it is a sin." And he was sued for 1000 bucks. Many cases like this as well. The passage in Romans which refers to people having given up natural relations for unnatural ones has been deemed hate literature in Saskatchewan.

Anyways, yes, I don't think JBG even mentioned homosexuality, but the sexual revolution. It was you who brought it up so the it is on you if that's where the thread goes.

As for gay rights and many other rights groups, I have to say I am with JBG here. Everyone believes in rights of course. But a lot of these groups want more than their individual rights. They seek the right to censor what people can say, or they seek to impose parity laws, which are based on the logical fallacy that in a non-discriminatory society things would just magically work out evenly. Just because something has a good sounding name, does not make it great. But if someone asks to cut back funding on certain women's rights groups or gay rights groups because they can be quite ridiculous, nobody bothers to understand what the reasons were. They just hear "So-and-so wants to cut funding to women's right. Therefore, So-and-So is a misogynist." or a bigot, or a hate-monger, etc etc.

In the PC society you don't need to lop off heads to silence opinion....you just have to paint the thinker as a bigot.

Edited August 13, 2007 by jefferiah

[sucker punch]

I don't favor discrimination against gays. I don't think it should be encouraged or glamorized either.

Why not? Heterosexuality is encouraged and glamourized. What's the difference?

[CLRV]

There are some *definite* problems arising from a lack of Christian values. Particularly these central commandments of the Christian faith:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

(...)

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.'

But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,

leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.

(...)

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'

But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.

If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.

Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.

Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,

that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

You don't see anybody trying to get *these* Commandments put up in any court or schoolhouse, do you? No. Because if we did, our glorious, illustrious, morally smug Judeo-Christian society would fall apart at the seams.

I see precious few "Christians" even attempting to live up to these commandments and the sorry state of the world reflects that paucity of genuine Christian ethos. You don't see it on the street. Certainly I do not see it in this place. Advocating war. Forcing Christ into your voyeuristic fascination with the sex lives others, when Christ never uttered ONE WORD about homosexuals one way or the other. Utterly failing to even *try* understanding your "enemy"; to the point of actually stating, apparently with a straight face, that "muslim culture" somehow values family less than ours does. They're just not like us, you see.

Jesus Wept...

[jbg]

In the PC society you don't need to lop off heads to silence opinion....you just have to paint the thinker as a bigot.

Spot on. A bigot, to me, is a sheriff who sics police dogs on peaceful black demonstrators, or who forces a genius like George Washington Carver to duck out of the rear entrance of a building after giving a scientific presentation.

[jbg]

You don't see anybody trying to get *these* Commandments put up in any court or schoolhouse, do you? No. Because if we did, our glorious, illustrious, morally smug Judeo-Christian society would fall apart at the seams. I see precious few "Christians" even attempting to live up to these commandments and the sorry state of the world reflects that paucity of genuine Christian ethos. You don't see it on the street. Certainly I do not see it in this place. Advocating war.

You're babbling. The only problem with posting them in courthouses is their length and detail; the Ten Commandments are universal and simple.

Forcing Christ into your voyeuristic fascination with the sex lives others, when Christ never uttered ONE WORD about homosexuals one way or the other. Utterly failing to even *try* understanding your "enemy"; to the point of actually stating, apparently with a straight face, that "muslim culture" somehow values family less than ours does. They're just not like us, you see.

Jesus Wept...

I am not even a believer in Christ. Why not read what I wrote, not what you would like me to have written, so you can attack it? Why not address my relatively unarguable points about the intended use of a rectum, and sexual organs? Or would you prefer your proctologist shove his probe in randomly, violently and without lubrication?

[CLRV]

No, you're not a believer in Christ, are you? So it's pretty laughable telling the rest of us that we don't measure up to Christian ethics.

That's addressing your "unarguable points" in the most direct manner.

Your last sentence exemplifies unhealthy sexual fascination too, doesn't it?

[jbg]

No, you're not a believer in Christ, are you? So it's pretty laughable telling the rest of us that we don't measure up to Christian ethics.

I said "Judeo-Christian". That's very different.

That's addressing your "unarguable points" in the most direct manner.

Your last sentence exemplifies unhealthy sexual fascination too, doesn't it?

No, I'm pointing out that homosexual sex is contrary to anatomy, safety and nature. Why should the government sponsor "AIDS awareness" for a self-generated problem?

[cybercoma]

Again, not what I said. What I said, and meant, was that the human body was not built for anal sexual penetration. The result of use of a human body in an unintended manner for an unintended purpose is akin to smoking cigarettes at a gasoline self-serve. Both are inherently legal (if not totally safe) activities but when combined they are disastrous. Same with using an anus, without the necessary mucous membranes, in the same manner as a vagina. It is not because of G-d I hold these beliefs; it is because believing that these activities are safe defies reason and logic.

So, lesbianism is pretty much a-ok with you and your religion then? Please don't preach intolerance and try to cover it up as a health and safety issue.

[CLRV]

Or as a matter of religious ethics you do not possess.

[jefferiah]

I see precious few "Christians" even attempting to live up to these commandments and the sorry state of the world reflects that paucity of genuine Christian ethos. You don't see it on the street. Certainly I do not see it in this place. Advocating war. Forcing Christ into your voyeuristic fascination with the sex lives others, when Christ never uttered ONE WORD about homosexuals one way or the other.

Jesus never uttered any words about pedophiles either. But his followers said homosexuality was bad and they knew the man. Plus the Old Testament says this as well. Jesus being Jewish would have agreed. He never once softened religious values. In fact he made them stricter. Ceremonial and ritual laws he said came second. At the same time he believed in mercy. Therefore he would not punish or harm a gay person or refuse to talk or be friends. He was friends with sinners. But he never once said that sin was a-ok.

Why do you think that believing something is a sin is hate-mongering? There is some faulty logic there. I do things which I know other people believe is sinful, the fact that they do not condone it or even express a moral dissent about it does not mean they hate me. Liquor is legal, but aside from law individuals can have their own moral limitations. If a teetotaler believes liquor is evil and expresses his belief, that is not hatred. I am not barging into someone's bedroom. I am not stopping people from being gay. I just ask for the freedom to say I believe something is a sin. Plain and simple. That is not hatred.

[jbg]

So, lesbianism is pretty much a-ok with you and your religion then? Please don't preach intolerance and try to cover it up as a health and safety issue.

I suppose it's a bit less damaging, though I've never inquired about the mechanics. I do feel that lesbian relationships are less promiscuous and thus somewhat less damaging to the social fabric. I still don't think we should experiment with lesbian couples' raising children. The subjects of the "experiment" are totally innocent and have a right not to be experimented on.