Jews barred from renting apartments in Nice, France

[scribblet]

Is anyone really surprised at this - whoda thunk it huh

http://tinyurl.com/2gy3mq

Jews barred from renting apartments in Nice, France

A French newspaper revealed that some 1,000 apartment buildings in Nice continue to maintain a decades-old municipal regulation barring Jews from becoming tenants. by Israel Insider staff and partners

A French newspaper revealed over the weekend that some 1,000 apartment buildings in the Mediterranean city of Nice have maintained a decades-old municipal regulation barring Jews from becoming tenants.

The regulation was put in place during World War II, when parts of France were cooperating and collaborating with their Nazi occupiers.

French Jewish leaders expressed outrage over the discovery, and demanded the regulations be revised immediately.

Israeli leaders have for years been urging European Jews, especially those residing in France, to immigrate to the Jewish state amid rising anti-Semitic trends in Europe.

edited to correct URL

Edited August 10, 2007 by scriblett

[M.Dancer]

Jewsweek?

[M.Dancer]

I for one am surprised. France is probably the least institutionally anty semetic nation in europe. Has been for centuries except for blips like the Dreyfuss Affair and the Vichy regime......

More on the story......

Jews who want to acquire an apartment have to pay an additional amount of 900 to 7,000 euros in order to bypass the law which is still in effect.

The regulation says that in order to acquire an apartment any person must declare “being a French citizen” and “not being Jewish” or “not being married to a Jewish woman”.

http://ejpress.org/article/14874

[scribblet]

I would think once it gets some publicity they'll change the law.... nothing like a bit of bad press

[marcinmoka]

I would think once it gets some publicity they'll change the law

Did anyone actually try to enforce the law?

Granted, I am sure there are still archaic, forgotten laws in existence in our own country pertaining to were Irish folk can live or what not. We just can't be bothered to research them.

[scribblet]

I wondered that too, but article said that they are maintaining the regulation, sounds like they are enforcing it.

"A French newspaper revealed that some 1,000 apartment buildings in Nice continue to maintain a decades-old municipal regulation barring Jews from becoming tenants"

[buffycat]

From what I can gather no Jews have actually been denied apartment rental. The law was on the books since the WW2 when France collaborated with the Nazis.

Hence I am calling this whole non event BS.

From ynet:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3371697,00.html

Should the regulation be struck down? Of course - that is a no brainer Scriblett.

Note also that this was first published in March, what took you so long to find it?

How about the REALITY of Arab Israelis unable to buy or rent apartments in Israel? Hmmmm - that actually happens. Not like this utter nonsense. Really Scriblett I think you're slipping!!

[Bonam]

How about the REALITY of Arab Israelis unable to buy or rent apartments in Israel?

Lol I was wondering how long it'd take someone like Buffy to barge in here with some blatant anti-Israeli lies. Which propaganda site did you pick up that little factoid at? Or just make it up yourself?

Also, everyone else, please note the instant translation from a regulation in France to pointing fingers at Israel, simply because it involves Jews. Even if Israel had discriminatory housing policies, that would in no way justify or excuse anti-Jewish housing policies in France. In fact, the two are unrelated, except in the mind of a person who seeks to blame all Jews around the world for the injustices that they perceive Israel is perpetrating.

[kimmy]

From what I can gather no Jews have actually been denied apartment rental. The law was on the books since the WW2 when France collaborated with the Nazis.

Hence I am calling this whole non event BS.

The article posted by Monsieur Dancer says:

Jews who want to acquire an apartment have to pay an additional amount of 900 to 7,000 euros in order to bypass the law which is still in effect.

So it sounds as if this regulation is still in use, even if only as a means of extracting money.

Note also that this was first published in March, what took you so long to find it?

Perhaps Scribblett only just found Jewsweek. Does it matter?

Why is that an issue? Perhaps if you want your Jewish News faster you should hire a news-clipping service to keep you more up to date.

How about the REALITY of Arab Israelis unable to buy or rent apartments in Israel? Hmmmm - that actually happens. Not like this utter nonsense. Really Scriblett I think you're slipping!!

That sounds like a fascinating subject. Perhaps you should start a thread on it.

-k

[buffycat]

Did either one of you, Bonam or Kimmy READ the articles?

There is NO proof that this is actually happening now - at all.

If it were, obviously it is discrimination and should stop - but the point which BOTH of you seem to have missed is this: It's not happening - period.

As far as discrimination goes, Israel DOES so on a regular basis to the Arab Christian and Muslim minority. Just recently with the hooplah surrounding the discriminatory practices of the JNF and the ILA - look it up - I'm not your research engine. Not to mention the unofficial policy of not issuing housing permits to Arab Christians and Muslims in Israel - then bulldozing the said structure, even though the permits are 'in limbo'! So, you take issue with something here - which IS not occuring - yet both of you seem to be fine when the Israeli Admins do it in Israel against others! What a double standard and what shear hypocrisy!! Amazing!

You both need to read a little more and question when something so obviously trollish is posted.

(I take it it's okay for one group but not for other eh?)

Can you find any kind of evidence that this particular 'regulation' is still in practice?

No? Didn't think so.

Oh and Bonam - is adhominen the only thing you know how to post?

[scribblet]

It's NOT happening - really - I suppose the writer just made it up, or if you don't like it then dismiss it as NOT happening.

I provided a source, maybe someone could find a source to back up their claim that it is not happening.

[buffycat]

It's NOT happening - really - I suppose the writer just made it up, or if you don't like it then dismiss it as NOT happening.

I provided a source, maybe someone could find a source to back up their claim that it is not happening.

Nah, Scribblet - you were the one who seems to think it is which of course the article doesn't actually say - so I think it's up to you to call up Nice and ask them!!

pfft.

[kimmy]

Did either one of you, Bonam or Kimmy READ the articles?

There is NO proof that this is actually happening now - at all.

If it were, obviously it is discrimination and should stop - but the point which BOTH of you seem to have missed is this: It's not happening - period.

You appear to be the one did not read the articles. M.Dancer's article asserts that this regulation is used to extract additional money-- from 900 to 7000 euros-- from Jews who want to rent an apartment.

http://ejpress.org/article/14874

-k

[marcinmoka]

sounds like they are enforcing it.

I just looked through my old rental lease(s) from a few years back when I actually lived in Nice, and nada, could not find anything in the fine print stipulating the necessity of my being non-jewish. Though who knows,maybe this poor soul planned on getting a pad on Rue Trachel, which also houses the office of a certain personality by the name of Le Pen, first name, Jean-Marie, and who's private office looks onto an enormous red billboard for "Mecca Cola". Considering he loves to hate everyone, enacting such a law in this day in age amongst one or two hardcore supporters could be plausible. Nice (PACA) is single handedly his biggest stomping ground.

P.S. Has anyone access to the actual wording of the law? I find it hard to believe the Vichy Gov' had the skill to predict both the future European currency and real estate values that far in advance.

Edited August 11, 2007 by marcinmoka

[Rue]

From what I can gather no Jews have actually been denied apartment rental. The law was on the books since the WW2 when France collaborated with the Nazis.

Hence I am calling this whole non event BS.

Well Buffy congrats. You have demonstrated for everyone to see you are full of it and jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. More to the point

you just couldn't resist turning an incident of anti-semitism around to criticize Israel. Perhaps you would like to write BC Chick

and explain to her why what you just did, so you both can sit there and claim its beyond both of you.

I have a daughter who lives in Paris. I have friends who live in Paris, Nimes, Nice and Marseilles. I can tell you for a fact that when you go

to apply for an apartment certain types of people can not get them.

I can also tell you Buffy has no clue of what she is talking about - as usual.

I would hope some other French citizens come on this forum and explain how it happens when you go to apply for

an apartment.

Interesting Buffy but the UN stated; (http://www.hri.ca/fortherecordcanada/documentation/genassembly/a-54-347.htm)

in a report in regards to racism in France and I quote;

61

"In recent years, daily incidents of discrimination, for example in connection with admission to discotheques or with the renting of apartments, have become commonplace. "

Perhaps Buffy you should learn to read before you shoot off at the mouth about things you have

no clue about. The only b.s. is you making assumptions without substance to back them up.

[buffycat]

From what I can gather no Jews have actually been denied apartment rental. The law was on the books since the WW2 when France collaborated with the Nazis.

Hence I am calling this whole non event BS.

Well Buffy congrats. You have demonstrated for everyone to see you are full of it and jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. More to the point

you just couldn't resist turning an incident of anti-semitism around to criticize Israel. Perhaps you would like to write BC Chick

and explain to her why what you just did, so you both can sit there and claim its beyond both of you.

I have not jumped to unsubstantiated conclusions Rue - as I did try to research this and it seems as though there is absolutely nothing outside of three articles. Nothing is even mentioned on ADL wrt this archaic and bigotted law. At least that is what the cursory searches that I have attempted in order to vett this piece of BS has shown! Believe me if this were the case it would be a well known fact - not some tiny article with NO evidence that this is actually occuring currently.

I have a daughter who lives in Paris. I have friends who live in Paris, Nimes, Nice and Marseilles. I can tell you for a fact that when you go

to apply for an apartment certain types of people can not get them.

How nice for you all. Guess what? I also have friends and relatives living in France, Germany, Austria and Czech Republic - and this proves what Rue? Sure it's hard to get good accomadations in ALL of Europe. I recall waiting for over an hour to view one apartment in Hamburg - one apartment - hundreds turned out to view it. SO WHAT??

I can also tell you Buffy has no clue of what she is talking about - as usual.

First you apologize (for whatever that may be worth - nada) then you character attack again! What chutzpah Rue, I gotta hand it to ya!

I would hope some other French citizens come on this forum and explain how it happens when you go to apply for

an apartment.

Interesting Buffy but the UN stated; (http://www.hri.ca/fortherecordcanada/documentation/genassembly/a-54-347.htm)

in a report in regards to racism in France and I quote;

61

"In recent years, daily incidents of discrimination, for example in connection with admission to discotheques or with the renting of apartments, have become commonplace. "

Perhaps Buffy you should learn to read before you shoot off at the mouth about things you have

no clue about. The only b.s. is you making assumptions without substance to back them up.

I take it you mean this ENTIRE bit - noting of course the spin you are attaching, as the part you quoted (I'll bold it for ya!) is about ALL non ethnic groups - not just those of Jewish faith:

C. Anti-Semitism

58. In its communication of 16 March 1999 transmitting the Annual Report of the Government of Israel on anti-Semitic Trends in 1998, the Government of Israel noted that anti-Semitic propaganda and violence had increased considerably in 1998 compared with 1997. This coincided with the commemoration of the fiftieth anniversary of the founding of the State of Israel and the issue of the recovery of the gold and property of Jews seized during the Second World War and resulted in attacks on Jewish communities and synagogues and the desecration of Jewish graves in various parts of the world.

59. The Israeli Government and many Jewish organizations also believe that the denial of the Holocaust is one of the main common manifestations of anti-Semitism.

D.Insidious and subtle forms of racism and racial discrimination

60. Unlike the violent manifestations of racism, anti-Semitism and racial propaganda, which are visible forms of racism, there are hidden, insidious and subtle forms of these phenomena that are not always subject to the law.

61. A circular of 16 July 1998 from the French Minister of Justice addressed to the procurators-general of the courts of appeal and government procurators of the courts of major instance on efforts to combat racism and xenophobia, transmitted to the Special Rapporteur by the French Government, provides some information about this type of racism and racial discrimination. It notes inter alia that:

"Over the past 30 years, France has gradually put into place an arsenal of laws that seem to be equal to the task of effectively prosecuting the different manifestations of racist and xenophobic ideologies and protecting their victims ...

"Despite increasingly vigorous and significant judicial responses, racially-biased crimes continue to affect social relations and threaten the fundamental values of our civilization.

"Although there has been a steady increase in the number of sentences handed down by all French criminal courts, it should nevertheless be noted that because so few complaints are recorded by the police and gendarmerie, and referred to the prosecution service, the number of cases prosecuted does not at all reflect the reality as perceived by the associations that combat racism on a daily basis ...

"The facts brought to the attention of the Ministry of Justice show that the manifestations of racism and xenophobia are becoming increasingly diversified in terms of both form and gravity. Moreover, racist discourse is becoming more sophisticated and is often couched in such terms as to escape being characterized as an offence ...

"In recent years, daily incidents of discrimination, for example in connection with admission to discotheques or with the renting of apartments, have become commonplace.

"Yet only 10 people were sentenced, in 1996, for discrimination with respect to the offer or provision of goods or services.

"No one was sentenced for any other form of discrimination (employment, recruitment, dismissal and economic activity in general which covers all the other forms of discrimination).

"Instances of discrimination in recruitment and in the workplace are much more widespread than it appears. It is up to the courts to prosecute any such cases that are brought to their attention and to hand down the relevant sentences. Discrimination can also be insidious and result in hindering an individual's career development or unfair dismissals ...".

IV. Measures taken or envisaged by Governments, legislative and

judicial bodies and other authorities

***

So, it's not just Jews being discriminated against! Quelle surpise! (not). It is interesting that you cherry pick the one line - in another category (D vs C) in which to rest your oh so floppy case.

Nice try.

No one is denying that racism and bigotry exists - but false accusations do nothing outside of diminishing the ACTUAL cases when they do arise - again not just for Jews - but for all who may be treated differently.

[M.Dancer]

Lol I was wondering how long it'd take someone like Buffy to barge in here with some blatant anti-Israeli lies. Which propaganda site did you pick up that little factoid at? Or just make it up yourself?

Also, everyone else, please note the instant translation from a regulation in France to pointing fingers at Israel, simply because it involves Jews. Even if Israel had discriminatory housing policies, that would in no way justify or excuse anti-Jewish housing policies in France. In fact, the two are unrelated, except in the mind of a person who seeks to blame all Jews around the world for the injustices that they perceive Israel is perpetrating.

No no...no anti semite here...das it gott .....move along...move along....

[buffycat]

No no...no anti semite here...das it gott .....move along...move along....

As usual an really enlightened response from you M.

WRT Bonam: My source is B'TSelem - you might want to look them up sometime - or present your own facts (but I guess for all of you it's far easier to simply use adhominen!)

pffft

BTW M - what does 'das it gott' mean? If it's a weak attempt to marry the bastardized german you have written with some kind of Nazi association, you might want to actually look up how to spell it.

could it be Das ist Gott? or is it Das ist gut? Pretty lame however, though I'm certainly not surprised!

Edited August 13, 2007 by buffycat

[M.Dancer]

As usual an really enlightened response from you M.

Thank you. I try to be bang on in a little space as possible. And thanks for the tip. I know now where to get my 30s era conversational german lessons........

[Rue]

"I have not jumped to unsubstantiated conclusions Rue - as I did try to research this and it seems.."

And how did you research it? Did you go there. Did you speak to people who live there? Right you went on the internet. The scary thing is you believe you are an expert researcher.

"There is absolutely nothing outside of three articles."

And how do you know this Buiffy. Oh yes, you are an expert on the topic and have ruled out anything but these three articles. Do yous top and think before you respond? Do you really think you going on the inter-net, allows yout o make the above conclusion?

"At least that is what the cursory searches that I have attempted in order to vett this piece of BS..."

Bingo, you come up with your conclusion its b.s. and then make a cursory search and gosh darn it Buffy becomes an expert.

"Believe me if this were the case it would be a well known fact - not some tiny article with NO evidence that this is actually occuring currently."

Now there is a brilliant example of logic. It would be a well known fact, i.e., since Buffy never heard of it, it is not a well known fact, and let us also not forget, for a fact to exist, it must be well known. Not only that the SIZE of an article dictates its credibility. Buffy with comments like these is there a need for anyone to even poke fun at you?

"I also have friends and relatives living in France, Germany, Austria and Czech Republic - and this proves what Rue? "

Yes and as usual you miss the point. Are your friends Jewish? Are they experiencing a landlord not wanting to rent to them because they are Jewish. Oh wait, I forgot, Buffy doesn't know Jews. You are a laugh riot.

"Sure it's hard to get good accomadations in ALL of Europe.I recall waiting for over an hour to view one apartment in Hamburg - one apartment - hundreds turned out to view it. SO WHAT??"

Spoken like a true pampered sheltered white girl expecting the whole world to experience it as she does. So what? Buffy, the fact that you ask so what...proves you just can't for one second flex your brain, and imagine anything other then an experience as through the eyes and brain if it is that of Buffy.

So what? Yes the white sheltered pampered girl asks so what...so what? Have you had a door slammed in your face simply because of your skin colour or the sound of your name? So what?

Finally, good grief you quote the entire UN article, which anyone can read as I posted the site;

"58. In its communication of 16 March 1999 transmitting the Annual Report of the Government of Israel on anti-Semitic Trends in 1998, the Government of Israel noted that anti-Semitic propaganda and violence had increased considerably in 1998 compared with 1997. This coincided with the commemoration of the fiftieth anniversary of the founding of the State of Israel and the issue of the recovery of the gold and property of Jews seized during the Second World War and resulted in attacks on Jewish communities and synagogues and the desecration of Jewish graves in various parts of the world.

59. The Israeli Government and many Jewish organizations also believe that the denial of the Holocaust is one of the main common manifestations of anti-Semitism.

D.Insidious and subtle forms of racism and racial discrimination

60. Unlike the violent manifestations of racism, anti-Semitism and racial propaganda, which are visible forms of racism, there are hidden, insidious and subtle forms of these phenomena that are not always subject to the law.

61. A circular of 16 July 1998 from the French Minister of Justice addressed to the procurators-general of the courts of appeal and government procurators of the courts of major instance on efforts to combat racism and xenophobia, transmitted to the Special Rapporteur by the French Government, provides some information about this type of racism and racial discrimination. It notes inter alia that:

"Over the past 30 years, France has gradually put into place an arsenal of laws that seem to be equal to the task of effectively prosecuting the different manifestations of racist and xenophobic ideologies and protecting their victims ...

"Despite increasingly vigorous and significant judicial responses, racially-biased crimes continue to affect social relations and threaten the fundamental values of our civilization.

"Although there has been a steady increase in the number of sentences handed down by all French criminal courts, it should nevertheless be noted that because so few complaints are recorded by the police and gendarmerie, and referred to the prosecution service, the number of cases prosecuted does not at all reflect the reality as perceived by the associations that combat racism on a daily basis ...

"The facts brought to the attention of the Ministry of Justice show that the manifestations of racism and xenophobia are becoming increasingly diversified in terms of both form and gravity. Moreover, racist discourse is becoming more sophisticated and is often couched in such terms as to escape being characterized as an offence ...

"In recent years, daily incidents of discrimination, for example in connection with admission to discotheques or with the renting of apartments, have become commonplace.

"Yet only 10 people were sentenced, in 1996, for discrimination with respect to the offer or provision of goods or services.

"No one was sentenced for any other form of discrimination (employment, recruitment, dismissal and economic activity in general which covers all the other forms of discrimination).

"Instances of discrimination in recruitment and in the workplace are much more widespread than it appears. It is up to the courts to prosecute any such cases that are brought to their attention and to hand down the relevant sentences. Discrimination can also be insidious and result in hindering an individual's career development or unfair dismissals ...".

IV. Measures taken or envisaged by Governments, legislative and

judicial bodies and other authorities"

Nothing in the above contradicts a thing I said, nor negates it. None the less you suggest I stated only Jews are discriminated against which I never did but shows where your mind is at and that you have twisted the entire post around in to suggest because the original poster posted it, he is suggesting discrimination against Jews in Nice, is only particular to them. Why Buffy oh why is it when you read an article talking about discrimination against Jews finding apartments, you think it is relevant to state, that I or anyone else have suggested discrimination in France is only against Jews?

Stop and think Buffy how your mind twisted it around to that assumption and why I ridicule you. Stop and think why you took an article on anti-semitism in France and try deny it with no objective proof, and then try turn this around to suggest Israelis discriminate against Arabs in Israel? What logic in your mind takes an incident with French Jews and discrimination against Jews, and uses it to suggest it is related to what goes on in Israel.

Use your alleged logic Buffy. If indeed Israelis discriminate against Arabs with apartments in Israel how is that any relation to Jews in France and what happens to them. It is a classic case of someone who does not distinguish between Jews and Israelis and that is precisely what anti-semitism is-the failure to distinguish between Israelis and Jews, and to suggest they are synonomous. What makes it an anti-semitic remark as well, is that you seek to negate discrimination against Jews by trying to depict Israelis as discriminatory and so your logic is -Jews can't complain about being discriminated against because Israelis are bad people and since Israelis are Jews, all Jews are bad and discriminate against people so no one should feel sorry for them.

That was your pathetic point Buffy and its pathetic. That is the only word I can use for it.

"So, it's not just Jews being discriminated against!"

Bingo there is Buffy making a statement that typifies why some of us ridicule her. No one on this forum at any time suggested discrimination was only against Jews, ever! Buffy though with her preconception that Jews complain for no good reason rushes to the above conclusion thinking she has found a smoking gun.

What did you find Buffy?

"It is interesting that you cherry pick the one line - in another category (D vs C) in which to rest your oh so floppy case. "

I did not cherry pick a line. I went right to the point of discrimination when looking for apartments which you said did not exist and I never hid the source of the article.

"Nice try."

Try what? You are so bent on trying to portray ALL Jews as bad or evil, you couldn't resist coming on this post and with due respect making a complete satire of yourself.

"No one is denying that racism and bigotry exists "

That is exactly what your words have done. Not only do you try trivialize what is happening to Jews in France, but you try turn it against all Jews by making a preposterous and anti-semitic slur against Israelis.

" false accusations do nothing outside of diminishing the ACTUAL cases .."

You dare lecture anyone on false accusations, You come on this post and make slurs against all Israelis suggesting they discriminate against Arabs looking for apartments and you think you can accuse me or anyone else of false accusations!? Just what was false in what was reported. Do you realize Buffy you have failed to provide on shred of evidence in any of your remarks or your expert research to prove these articles are false?

"when they do arise - again not just for Jews - but for all who may be treated differently."

So tell us Buffy, what really makes you feel the need when you see an article on Jews being treated poorly to try negate it and trivilaize it such as with the above words? What do you think makes you feel the need to point out that Jews are no different then anyone else if they are being discriminated against, so that in itself means we do not have to pay such discrimination any credence?

I would suggest Buffy your need to negate and put down the discrimination Jews feel is not anything but a classic example of anti-semitic thought.

I say that just as I would say you were racist if you tried to say the same thing if a black person told you about their experiences of trying to get an apartment, or any other visible minority experiencing discrimination when trying to get an apartment. I would call you a biugot and an ignoramus, if you tried to dismiss the discrimiantion a person with a disability experiences tryingt o get an apartment.

To me Buffy someone who feels the need to jump on tales of discrimination and try trivialize them is doing it for a specific reason. Your target in this case is Jews.

What happened Buffy. When did you decide to go on your mission to attack Jews like this and trivialize their problems?

Do you think it makes you a person of integrity?

With due respect Buffy, your comments not only miss the point but show you are blinded right now by a mission you are on. I am not sure who is filling your head with this hatred or whether it comes genuinely from you but I work with many people llike you. The name of the group they hate changes, but the sentiments and remarks are the same.

Good luck on your campaign to villify. Problem is some of us find you nothing more then a hateful distraction when you make such comments or attempt to lecture people.

[Bonam]

Might wanna edit that post a bit Rue so that only the parts you are quoting are inside the

cause its a bit painful to parse through as is, just FYI.

[Rue]

Buffy made a point of responding to a post about discrimination against Jews

in Nice, France by suggesting the allegations of discrimination are false but she has yet to provide any evidence to suggest the allegations as stated in the articles are false.

She then contradicted herself, and said discrimination happens against many people in France not just Jews thereby unintentionally admitting there is discrimination against people including Jews. She then falsely stated I stated only Jews were being discriminated against in France. In Buffy’s response,there is a clear inference that since other target groups and not just Jews are discriminated against this lessens the value or experience that should be placed on what happens to Jews in France.

Buffy also raised the argument that Israelis discriminate against Arabs in Israel.

She provided no basis for this allegation nor did she explain how it is relevant to Jews experiencing discrimination in France.

Again the inference made was that since Israelis are Jews and they discriminate against Arabs in Israel according to Buffy, this negates the experience of discrimination Jews may be undergoing in France.

I responded by stating that when you make allegations against ALL Israelis that do not distinguish them from other Jews, this is an act of anti-semitism. I stated, that when you

try trivialize the experience of discrimination Jews are feeling, this is anti-semitic.

I suggested that when you take two unrelated incidents and try link them together simply because of a suggested commonality of being Jewish and you try negate the discrimination experience being reported by turning the person complaining of the discrimination into a villain or discriminator, this is anti-semitism.

I would suggest all three counts of anti-semitism, are classic examples of anti-semitic comments or thought. They are anti-semitic in that they assign negative assumptions and generalizations about all Jews, all Israelis, and seek to denigrate or deny the fact that Jews experience discrimination.

I specifically wrote a post under the religious posts explaining why some of us will feel the need to point out when we feel comments or thoughts expressed are discriminatory or hateful against Jews and this is why we refer to those comments as anti-semitic.

Buffy made a point in her response to tell me she did research and found no proof that Jews are being discriminated against in Nice, France. On the one hand she said she did research, but on the other, stated she did a cursory search.

I would suggest had Buffy made any effort to research anti-semitism in France she would have noted the following inter-net articles she seems to have missed;

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights...pe/France01.htm

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights...pe/France01.htm

http://www.christianity.ca/news/internatio...003/06.000.html

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsoc...nd_its_Jews.asp

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51552.htm

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/france.html

I point the above articles out because Buffy inferred that I deliberately cherry picked and only pointed out one piece of information and suggested I did so because I was arguing only Jews are discriminated in France and tried to misrepresent this to this forum by selecting only certain information.

The alleged information she accused me of selecting to suggest only Jews are discriminated against didn’t even mention Jews!!!! I quoted it for one reason only, to prove the UN had found that discrimination in apartment searching did exist.

I conclude this post by stating for Buffy to suggest I am cherry picking on this forum topic is absolutely untrue for if I did I would have in fact produced information suggesting ONLY Jews were being discriminated against.

I deliberately chose a neutral source of information.

Now since Buffy was the one to accuse me of being selective, I now ask the question-how is it she claims to have done research on discrimination against Jews in France and has found none but the above articles, are simply ignored by her in her cursory research as she called it. I found all the above with a cursory search within 5 seconds.

[Rue]

I would like to focus back on the original issue which deals with anti-semitism in France.

There is an article entitled; France Goes Vichy On Its Jews, written by Andrew L. Jaffe, dated June 3, 2004. It discusses anti-semitism going on in France today including synagogues that have been burned down, Jewish schools that have been torched and hundreds of attacks against Jews.

It discusses how the old anti-semitism was perpetuated by Christians in France and the new anti-semitism is now being perpetuated by North African Muslims, who themselves are often the target of racial attacks as well.

This article discusses how Le Consistotoire de Paris and the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions of France (the body representing the Jewish community of France) have compiled a long list of anti-Jewish acts in France.

Examples of 6 personal attacks were provided in the article;

A 14-year-old boy wearing a yarmulke came out of the Ourq metro station and was followed by two young men. They called him a "dirty Jew" and robbed him in front of a crowd of witnesses. The men knocked the boy down, beat him on the head and broke his nose. The boy begged for help from passers-by, who simply walked away.

In central Paris, a teacher from a Jewish school was beaten up by young men, who ripped the Star of David from the teacher’s neck and trampled her. They called her a "dirty Jew" and lit her hair on fire. They also told her, "We’re going to burn all you Jews."

A group of four young men interrupted a class in the auditorium of the University Medical School of Saint-Antoine in Paris. They yelled, "We’re going to kill all the Jews" and, "We’re armed and we’re going to take you all down."

When a Jewish student confronted the men they beat him and robbed him. The professor who was teaching the class said nothing and the men walked out without a care while the class looked on in silence. The dean of the University has been told of the situation but has not yet responded.

On the walls of the Rue Des Rosiers (in the Marais, the Jewish quarter), once again there are signs of the Star of David in yellow paint accompanied by the slogan, "And don’t forget the showers of Zyclon," referring to the gas used in Nazi death camps.

Also in Paris, a 12-year-old girl coming out of a Jewish school was attacked by two men. They beat her, held her down and slashed her face with a box cutter. They carved a swastika into her face and walked away. Her parents have filed a police report.

What we know about today’s version of anti-semitism in France is that it is fueled by animosity the French have towards Israel which in turn is subjected on Jews in France.

For example, the French Ambassador to Britain stated in 2002 and I quote;

“ Israel is a shitty little country… Why should the world be in danger of World War Three because of THOSE PEOPLE.”

Interestingly in her response to this topic, Buffy stated the anti-defamation league provides no information as to discrimination in France. Had she done the research she claimed she did she would have realized the above organizations I mentioned and not the ADL have been documenting the incidents of anti-semitism.

She would also have known that based on the Eurobarometer survey conducted in 2000,

it found when it came to considering its minorities;

• 19% of French respondents were classified as intolerant

• 26% as ambivalent

• 31% as passively tolerant

• 25% as actively tolerant.

It also found that only 31% of French respondents favoured laws outlawing discrimination against minorities.

In an article that can be found at; http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsoc...s_With_Hate.asp

you can find these two portions of it which are self-explanatory;

“Anxiety is gripping French Jews. They've seen synagogues ablaze, cemeteries vandalized and walls painted with swastikas as they face what observers have called the worst spate of anti-Semitism since World War II. Hate crimes rose from just one in 1998 to more than 700 in the first five months of 2002. Observant Jews live in a state of siege. Police now patrol in front of the Jewish schools. Graffiti and swastikas appear almost nightly in Strasbourg. Rabbis exhort congregants in Marseille to cover their kipas in public. Jewish men guard the front of synagogues during services, walkie-talkies in hand, revolvers hidden in their pocket. Parents forbid their sons to play soccer because of a vicious attack in Paris. And the number of Jews considering leaving for Israel has skyrocketed in recent months, according to the Jewish Agency office in Paris. “

“In two dozen interviews conducted in French with Jews in Paris, Marseille and Strasbourg during a two-week period in mid-May, a portrait emerges of a complex French Jewish community splintered by the specter of anti-Semitism. The Jews of France became unified briefly in fighting Le Pen. With that threat over, the ongoing anti-Semitic events have exposed differences along fault lines of religious observance, social class, politics, age and origins. “

My point is France is not a tolerant society. It has always discriminated against its North Africans (Muslims from Algeria, Tunisia, Morrocco, Syria, Lebanon) and its Africans and Vietnamese. Prior to its discrimination against these immigrant groups, there has always been a long standing element of anti-semitism flowing from the Catholic Church.

Today’s anti-semitism can be from the right (La Penn and ultra right wing Christian groups) or the left and from French Muslims(those claiming to be anti-Israeli but attacking anything Jewish ).

Having lived in France I understand how people react to being Jewish. I went to L’Universite de Montpelliers and was the subject of anti-semitic remarks by North African French students as well as alleged leftist anti-Israel professors.

Interestingly an Algerian who when finding out I was a Jew from Canada spit on my food

became my friend as I came across him being beaten up by some French students and pleaded with them to stop. I lied and told them he was mentally ill and was a patient I was treating at a hospital. (you think fast when you want to avoid a beating)

I hold my tongue when I hear the Buffy’s of the world lecturing people about France.

That said, France is no different then any other democracy. It has its share of hate mongers. Do I hate all French people, of course not. These hate mongers are a minority.

The point is they do exist and when they do discriminate against Jews, it is particular to Jews, although it has similarities with discrimination against others.

Discrimination in finding an apartment doesn’t only happen in France, it happens here in Canada as well but for someone like Buffy to pretend it doesn’t exist or suggest it doesn’t exist with Jews is idiotic. I have had doors slammed in my face because I am Jewish in Paris and Marseilles but then I also know many wonderful French people.

I blame today’s anti-semitism in France as a combination of anti-Israeli anger from North Africans which has fused with a left wing bias against Israel in France which fails to distinguish between Jews and Israelis and can be traced back to anti-semitism as promulgated in the past by the Catholic Church and therefore French government officials and yes the Vichy regime and Nazi collaborators.

The Nazis had no problems finding French to assist them in deporting Jews during World War Two.. Unlike the Danish, Dutch or Norweigans, the French who did help Jews were

very much a minority and could not count on wide spread support from their fellow citizens.

The anti-Israel policies first advanced by Charles DeGaulles and then Valerie Giscard D’Estang and Jacques Chirac most certainly incited and inflamed a new form of anti-semitism.

Many French people have spoken out against anti-semitism and other forms of discrimination-they are the people I prefer to keep in mind and embrace and I believe they are the majority.

It is also ironic because Napoleon was the first European leader to support a Jewish independent state in Israel and treat Jews with respect and dignity.

I doubt he would have approved of Charles DeGaulles, Vichy, Petain, Chirac, Pompidou,

Giscard D’Estang or Chirac.I think would have found them to be cowards and opportunists.

Nicholas Sarkozy appears to be making a considerable effort to distance himself from these predecessors.

You will note I omitted Francois Mitterends from the list. Yes he was socialist but he fought in the under-ground and although surrounded by trendy anti-Israel leftists chastised anyone who engaged in anti-semitism. I can’t say the same for Chirac who made a speech condemning it but looked the other way as his Ministers made deliberately anti-semitic speeches inflaming riots against Jews as a result of alleged criticism against Israel.

Then again Mr. Chirac claimed Arafat was a freedom fighter and when Hezbollah murdered 55 French commandoes, pretended it never happened.

[fcgv]

I would imagine this is one of those forgotten laws that no one actually enforces anymore.

[Bonam]

I would imagine this is one of those forgotten laws that no one actually enforces anymore.

Living in Canada, where this type of discrimination is almost unheard of, I can see how you would imagine that. France, however, seems to be different story. Read Rue's post above.