Conference in London to Revive the Caliphate

[Riverwind]

with ridiculous notions like the idea that the cold war was all a big over-reaction. How trite.

A show on CBC radio tonight called "THE COLD WAR DECLASSIFIED" uses previously classified documents in the US, Russia and China to talk about the facts and the myths of the cold war. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/

This research supports my claim that the cold war was a big over reaction. I have also read similar comments by other historians.

[marcinmoka]

This research supports my claim that the cold war was a big over reaction. I have also read similar comments by other historians.

Could you give us specifics? I do not think that evoking a simple title does much in supporting your argument, nor does alluding to the fact that you previously read similar comments, therefore it must be true.

Sure, both sides at some points must of exagerated the threats in order to mobilize their populations, who were more preoccupied with the here and now than they were with strategic, long term thinking. But that is true of any war, and there is a clear reason for that : hindsight is not a luxury we can afford ourselves in times of great duress, I am sure you would agree, and it always is better to err on the side of caution. Having said that, how would you of preferred to see the cold war handled? Should the prospects of France, and especially Italy, being run over by the communists been ignored, thereby putting in peril the very alliance, NATO, which affords us security?

Not to make it personal, but it does upset me quite a bit to hear some sheltered kid brush away the threat posed by the most murderous regimes in the history of humanity as no big deal. Granted, some people are foolish enough to look at a few figures of immediate economic data and believe this gives them a glimpse onto the bigger strategic picture and even moreso, the psyche of those in power. Useful idiots was the proper expression, one attributed to those who gave the enemy the benefit of the doubt.

[M.Dancer]

The cold war, whether the participants over reacted or not, is besides the point. The cold war could have turned hot precisely because they were over reacting or simply reacting to real provocative threats. On the otherhand, what would have been the soviet reation had not the west reacted vigourously...would the soviets have seen non reaction as a sign of weakness and pushed westward, maybe trying to swallow all of Germany and thus precipitating an nuclear exchange? Or would we simply acquiessed?

The invasion of South Korea....Russian pilots in Chinese warplanes....

Berlin Blockade-Berlin Wall

Invasion of Hungary

Missiles in Turkey

Missiles in Cuba

[scribblet]

Another non-event in Jakarta, this one made today's BBC World News. According to the Beeb some of the speakers couldn't make it, they were not allowed into the country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6942688.stm

Islamists urge caliphate revival

A Indonesian boy holds a flag with Arabic writing during the International Caliphate Conference 2007 in Jakarta.

Most of the 80,000 who attended the conference were Indonesian

Some 100,000 Islamists have met in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta, to press for the re-establishment of a caliphate across the Muslim world.

The Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir - which organised the conference - said it had been the largest gathering of Muslim activists from around the world

[bush_cheney2004]

You need to learn to put things in perspective. 9/11 had some effect on the economy but it is not that significant when you compare it to other events such as WW2 or unusally bad weather.

No, I have shown you argument to be mostly flawed. Similarly, you would argue that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor had very little impact....and of course you would be wrong. In fact, until then, the Americans were accused of "under-reacting" when Commonwealth bacon was at stake.

[Riverwind]

Similarly, you would argue that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor had very little impact....and of course you would be wrong.

I said no such thing and bringing up this example demonstrates that you are limited to two modes of thinking: do nothing or full frontal assault. The world is more complex than that and different situations require different reactions and over-reacting is often as worse as doing nothing. There were many different events during the cold war that required some reaction and not every reaction was extreme. MAD is only a deterrent if you demonstrate a willingness to use it. OTOH - justifying the invasion of Viet Nam because of a possible 'domino effect' was clearly absurd. Similarly, propping up various brutal regimes like Pinochet because 'they aren't communists' is an equally ridiculous over reaction to the 'communist' threat.

Many of the increased security measures since 9/11 are prudent. Going into Afghanistan to get rid of the Al Qaeda bases was also a sensible reaction. Invading Iraq was a gross over reaction that has increased the risk of terrorist attacks and given Iran and North Korea the excuses they needed to build nukes as fast as possible no matter what the world thinks.

This Mulsim Caliphate definiately falls under the category of nothing to worry about.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Riverwind

[bush_cheney2004]

Many of the increased security measures since 9/11 are prudent. Going into Afghanistan to get rid of the Al Qaeda bases was also a sensible reaction. Invading Iraq was a gross over reaction that has increased the risk of terrorist attacks and given Iran and North Korea the excuses they needed to build nukes as fast as possible no matter what the world thinks.

This Mulsim Caliphate definiately falls under the category of nothing to worry about.

All of the "increased risks" you refer to existed long before the invasion of Iraq. Ironically, nuclear weapons development in Iraq was a real threat intercepted by the "over reaction" of both Iran and Israeli bombing missions at Osirak and UNSCOM/IAEA inspections. Toppling Saddam's regime was a matter of public law in the USA as of 1998...President Clinton promptly bombed over 100 sites. The subsequent invasion in 2003 was not an "over reaction"....it was simply "action" to complete what should have been done in 1991, having nothing to do with a "caliphate". 9/11 made this politically possible and acceptable.

America did not become the sole superpower of the world worrying if aggressive foreign policy actions or re-actions would meet your approval. No balls...no blue chips.

[Riverwind]

9/11 made this politically possible and acceptable.

Only because Bush an his cronies deliberately decieved the American populace by claiming that Iraq was linked to 9/11. The majority of Americans realize they were duped today and only a minority of believe the invasion was anything other than a mistake. Every respectable source agrees that the evidence for WMDs was too weak to justify an invasion at that time.

That example perfectly illustrates why one should _never_ trust leaders who build their political careers out of conflict. These kinds of people cannot be trusted to properly evaluate threats.

[bush_cheney2004]

That example perfectly illustrates why one should _never_ trust leaders who build their political careers out of conflict. These kinds of people cannot be trusted to properly evaluate threats.

No, this example is garden variety American foreign policy by other means. That you disagree with it does not make it an "over reaction". The invasion of Iraq was methodical and purposely executed. Your vantage point is from that of a lesser god, with the obviously mistaken notion that the USA should meet threats with equal and measured response. History provides numerous examples of exactly the opposite, and President Bush was more than happy to oblige.

[scribblet]

Here's another article on this 'growing movement'.

Waiting peacefully isn't quite telling it like it is, this guy Sheik Abu Abdullah said later, "The Jewish state and its occupation of Palestinian lands will be dealt with later by the combined armies of Islam."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...2/TPStory/Front

Now the rapidly growing movement has been emerging from the shadows in the Palestinian territories as well, capitalizing on public unhappiness with the recent bloodshed between the mainstream Hamas and Fatah movements that has split the Palestinian cause in two. A recent rally in the West Bank drew a crowd estimated in the tens of thousands. Days later, the centre of Ramallah is still covered in dark red posters praising "The Caliphate: The Coming Force," and Palestinians are flocking to mosques to hear preachers with an angry message.

"Why are we watching infidels prosper in this world and not stopping them?" Sheik Abu Abdullah, a young-looking man sporting a black turban and a neat black beard, asked a silent crowd of 50 people gathered at the al-Faruq mosque in Kfar Aqab last night. The audience, all men, most middle-class professionals, sat in silence as a battery of ceiling fans sliced through the humid night air.

"Muslims in China, Indonesia, Pakistan and everywhere in their thousands are asking for God's government through the Caliphate. They demand the return of God's rule on Earth," the preacher continued. He acknowledged the road to a global Islamic empire would be a long one, but told the worshippers to "please be optimistic." cont....