Toronto - Out of Money Again

[Higgly]

Get out your hankies, folks, but the impossible has happened. Toronto is having a budget crisis. Of course every city in Ontario is having a budget crisis because, in Ontario, cities are the fief of the liege lord province. The fief gets downloaded upon, as in Mike Harris, the Common Sense Revolution, and gets only the power to raise money by taxation. It also gets to see the real money earners inside its borders send all of their taxes somewhere else.

Of course, a lot of the other cities in Ontario are saying "Stop whining. Suck it up!". But then when a hundred thousand Philipino immigrants show up, they are not looking to go to those cities, are they? Somehow the immigrants always end up in Toronto. This would be a good time to review the fact that the tide of immigration is controlled by the Federal Ministry of Immigration.

The city has looked within itself to find savings as best it can. First, it turned to the Toronto Police Service. A request was put to the police board from the city - we are cutting your budget, please implement these cuts. "What us?", they asked. "You have to be kidding. There will be chaos in the streets.". LOL. Let's face it folks. The cops have never been team players. The next day, the news hits the stands: Library cutting its buget. Sad but true. Muscle before brains every time. The last time this happened under the previous regime they were closing swimming pools for kids but the cops were still getting their orthopaedic shoes LOL.

[White Doors]

Toronto shoudl have more money

police should have less and they whine alot and do nothing and aren't team players.

Province does nothing.

Toronto has done everything it has to reduce costs. (lol).

ok. I think I got it.

thanks for coming out.

[Higgly]

You scored better on this one than you usually do. Are you taking ginseng?

[guyser]

The city has looked within itself to find savings as best it can. First, it turned to the Toronto Police Service. A request was put to the police board from the city - we are cutting your budget, please implement these cuts. "What us?", they asked. "You have to be kidding. There will be chaos in the streets.". LOL. Let's face it folks. The cops have never been team players. LOL.

Laugh all you want , but if I were on the Police Board and had been asked to slice $10M from my police budget it would cause me to stop dead.

For I would have remembered that Mayor Miller just spent $6M re-doing his office and hiring staff members.

"LOL" all you want.

[Higgly]

Do you have a reputable reference for that spending by Miller? I don't believe you. Thanks.

[M.Dancer]

Miller is the worst mayor Toronto has had since Sewell.

City Council wants to cut everyone's budget, except there own cushy salaries which recently git a nice bump up. Had they voted to return to their previous cushy salary, they would have saved 1/2 million.

[Shakeyhands]

The city has looked within itself to find savings as best it can. First, it turned to the Toronto Police Service. A request was put to the police board from the city - we are cutting your budget, please implement these cuts. "What us?", they asked. "You have to be kidding. There will be chaos in the streets.". LOL. Let's face it folks. The cops have never been team players. LOL.

Laugh all you want , but if I were on the Police Board and had been asked to slice $10M from my police budget it would cause me to stop dead.

For I would have remembered that Mayor Miller just spent $6M re-doing his office and hiring staff members.

"LOL" all you want.

this project was canceled.

[guyser]

this project was canceled.

Whoops....but then again, good thing it was cancelled. Was it or was it postponed , I only ask because the talk radio people said it was a go.

Shot myself in the foot on that one I guess.

[fellowtraveller]

There is an easy solution for Toronto: raise taxes to whatever level is required to provide essential services.

If people howl, direct their complaints to the provincial government that has refused to dole out their funds in an equitable manner.

it is not a fiscal crisis, it is a political problem.

[geoffrey]

Just like in Calgary. Same problem. City won't raise taxes in an election year so they howl to the province.

Funny though out here, Stelmach gave Bronco his money, but had 'strings attached'... like he had to spend it on building exactly what Bronco wanted to spend it on... meaning you've got to wonder what his hidden agenda is.

I'm sure the same applies to Toronto.

In Canada, our system of government encourages low levels of governments to ask a bigger government, further away from the voters, to raise the money for their spending.

Though in all government fiscal crisis, you do need to look at spending before taxation. Is Mr. Miller spending beyond Toronto's means? I hear he is a very left wing socialist?

[john farson]

Just like in Calgary. Same problem. City won't raise taxes in an election year so they howl to the province.

Funny though out here, Stelmach gave Bronco his money, but had 'strings attached'... like he had to spend it on building exactly what Bronco wanted to spend it on... meaning you've got to wonder what his hidden agenda is.

I'm sure the same applies to Toronto.

In Canada, our system of government encourages low levels of governments to ask a bigger government, further away from the voters, to raise the money for their spending.

Though in all government fiscal crisis, you do need to look at spending before taxation. Is Mr. Miller spending beyond Toronto's means? I hear he is a very left wing socialist?

He's very left wing. I'm not very intimiate with the budget details but there must be some way to cut fat at city hall! Because this is getting tired -- year after year it's the same plea for more money -- pathetic really.

Other than his idea to make this city greener, he's devoid of the ability to think outside the box on seemingly all other issues.

Here's an idea. Why not cut business taxes to lure companies back to the city? Businesses come back + people get jobs = more revenue for the city. But that kind thought process seems to be beyond Miller's socialist, eco-friendly, increase-taxes-one-track mindset.

[guyser]

He's very left wing. I'm not very intimiate with the budget details but there must be some way to cut fat at city hall! Because this is getting tired -- year after year it's the same plea for more money -- pathetic really.

And that is because of the downloads from the province. What the Prov/Feds fail to realize is that the cash cow that is TO , and make no mistake , TO pays more that it will ever recieve, needs help.

They also fail to realize that every Tom Dick and Mohammad is coming to TO, and while we need and welcome them , we also need a boost on the social payments made.

Here's an idea. Why not cut business taxes to lure companies back to the city? Businesses come back + people get jobs = more revenue for the city. But that kind thought process seems to be beyond Miller's socialist, eco-friendly, increase-taxes-one-track mindset.

They would only have to increase prop taxes to do so. And with MVA on the books, the costs to Joe Avg would climb thru the roof. The housing market would bust overnight, and the downward spiral would commence for the inner city.

[john farson]

And that is because of the downloads from the province. What the Prov/Feds fail to realize is that the cash cow that is TO , and make no mistake , TO pays more that it will ever recieve, needs help.

Agreed. But that doesn't change the fact that we are in this position and need to do something about it. Downloading sucked but it's never going to be uploaded again and the constant crying for more money is going to iritate the rest of the province more and more as time goes on.

Anyone know where to find a nice condensed version of the Toronto budget and assets owned by the city?

[john farson]

Toronto Budget

Edited August 2, 2007 by john farson

[Higgly]

... every Tom Dick and Mohammad is coming to TO...

Also every Boy-Boy, Moishe, Sergei and Clinton....

[guyser]

Agreed. But that doesn't change the fact that we are in this position and need to do something about it. Downloading sucked but it's never going to be uploaded again and the constant crying for more money is going to iritate the rest of the province more and more as time goes on.

Anyone know where to find a nice condensed version of the Toronto budget and assets owned by the city?

But we are in this position because we were asked to spend on things we did not spend on before , but we had to keep sending the same amount to Queens Park.

As for irritating the rest of the province,well , they can go to H for all I care. The rest of the province gets things paid for by TO's money (and most dont know it) or at least subsidized to a certain degree. If the towns and cities of Ont were counted on to fund their initiatives, they would have nothing.

Save for Muskoka/Haliburton , they know how to screw people. Its called cottagers.

[geoffrey]

Snow removal. You can save a tiny bit of money there. Calgary saves a whopping 2 or 3 mil by not removing snow other than highways until a few days after a snowfall. Saves the taxpayer about $10 a year I think was quoted.

Calgary also has one of the highest winter collision rates... and traffic after a snowfall is ridiculous.

Toronto must be wary of where it cuts costs. Cities slashing budgets can hurt economies. Cut the things people will pay for anyways (sports funding, arts, ect.) and then see what you have left over for things that must be publically provisioned (roads, other infrastructure).

It's all about going back to basics when you can make the chequebook balance.

[Renegade]

But we are in this position because we were asked to spend on things we did not spend on before , but we had to keep sending the same amount to Queens Park.

But if I remember correctly, fiscal responsiblity for education, which was previously a city responsibilty was uploaded to the province.

[guyser]

But if I remember correctly, fiscal responsiblity for education, which was previously a city responsibilty was uploaded to the province.

You may well be write, a quick look shows that all funding is Provincial. Which, if I think about it, is worse for city kids. A large tax base results in school funding going outside the city to the lesser haves.

We are talking about funding so I dont want kids stripped of funds at the local board level . But man, what a collosal waste of money $14 Billion dollars is. Too much middle management. but have to save that one for another day.

[Renegade]

You may well be write, a quick look shows that all funding is Provincial. Which, if I think about it, is worse for city kids. A large tax base results in school funding going outside the city to the lesser haves.

We are talking about funding so I dont want kids stripped of funds at the local board level . But man, what a collosal waste of money $14 Billion dollars is. Too much middle management. but have to save that one for another day.

The logic is that all kids in the province are entitled to the same level of public education regardless of if they live in a "rich" school district, or "poor" one. By controlling funding at the provincial level, it gives the province to ensure the quality of education is more uniform.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you saying that city kids are entitled to better quality education because funds are raised locally?

[guyser]

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you saying that city kids are entitled to better quality education because funds are raised locally?

What is apparent to me is that plenty of students outside of the city get perks that simply cannot be afforded by city schools. This is anecdotal observing my cottage schools and in discussion with teachers and mangmt of school boards up north.

Every thurs they have the option of downhill skiing, mountain biking, tubing ,X country skiing and other options for the shoulder seasons. Transport, admission all paid for.

The education they recieve should and is from what I know veru similar.

[M.Dancer]

What is apparent to me is that plenty of students outside of the city get perks that simply cannot be afforded by city schools. This is anecdotal observing my cottage schools and in discussion with teachers and mangmt of school boards up north.

Every thurs they have the option of downhill skiing, mountain biking, tubing ,X country skiing and other options for the shoulder seasons. Transport, admission all paid for.

The education they recieve should and is from what I know veru similar.

On the otherhand...property taxes for places like Muskoka and Halliburton give the municipalities a whack of dough oput of proportion to their true population stats.....

[guyser]

On the otherhand...property taxes for places like Muskoka and Halliburton give the municipalities a whack of dough oput of proportion to their true population stats.....

Oh you are so correct on that.

And now Muskoka wants to change the garbage pickup situation to one of "tags" that they bill us for.

Baysville has no garbage collection , only a depot. No break on taxes , still no water ,sewer, in some places they refuse to plow...oh someday , someday they will face the wrath.

There would be a lot of poor towns if the cottagers packed up and left, yet the townspeople never remember that.

[Renegade]

What is apparent to me is that plenty of students outside of the city get perks that simply cannot be afforded by city schools. This is anecdotal observing my cottage schools and in discussion with teachers and mangmt of school boards up north.

Every thurs they have the option of downhill skiing, mountain biking, tubing ,X country skiing and other options for the shoulder seasons. Transport, admission all paid for.

The education they recieve should and is from what I know veru similar.

It is not clear to me how these extra activities are funded. I'm in Mississauga and while the school offers many of these activies, it is the parents who are expected to fund it.

[Renegade]

They would only have to increase prop taxes to do so. And with MVA on the books, the costs to Joe Avg would climb thru the roof. The housing market would bust overnight, and the downward spiral would commence for the inner city.

There is plenty of room to increase property taxes. TO's taxes are significantly less than the surrounding suburbs. The increased tax rates in the suburbs did not seem to stall the housing market there. In addition, many of the suburbs have user fees for use of the facilites, which TO doesn't. For example it cost to swim in the pool in Mississauga. It is free in Toronto. If TO is so cash poor there are several sources of untapped revenue.