Harper - A poor choice for conservatives

[Leafless]

Practically everything that our government will decide to do will affect Canadians, whether directly or indirectly.

Serious issues are not everything government will decide to do.

Are you satisfied with politicians decision relating to 'official bilingualism in our federal public service?

Are you satisfied with politicians unilateral decision relating to the passage of 'official multiculturalism'?

Are you satisfied with politicians decision to unilaterally repatriate our constitution from England?

Are you satisfied with politicians unilaterally amending our constitution with the Charter?

Then their are other important issues relating to Aboriginals and minorities.

Do you actually feel comfortable with the government changing the direction of the country WITHOUT your INPUT.

[Leafless]

What do you both mean by "totalitarian" government?

A government controlling the country with little or NO democratic input by its citizens especially relating to amendments to our constitution.

[Leafless]

So if you are say Mr. Harper is a principled prime minister, I must ask you in comparison or based on to what set of values?

Comparison?

Do you mean to compare with the principles of Churchill or Clinton etc.?

Do you mean he has principles just like so-and-so...but they're different?

To whom do you compare your own principles?

Why does it need to have any comparision?

Then I must ask you what your definition of 'principled' is before we can go any further.

[betsy]

Then I must ask you what your definition of 'principled' is before we can go any further.

Being "principled" as in opposed to being self-serving. Uprightness. With integrity.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Edited July 28, 2007 by betsy

[betsy]

What do you both mean by "totalitarian" government?

A government controlling the country with little or NO democratic input by its citizens especially relating to amendments to our constitution.

I have to admit that I haven't been following current political news lately. Can you be specific as to why you think we are now being run by a totalitarian government?

[betsy]

Practically everything that our government will decide to do will affect Canadians, whether directly or indirectly.

Serious issues are not everything government will decide to do.

Are you satisfied with politicians decision relating to 'official bilingualism in our federal public service?

Are you satisfied with politicians unilateral decision relating to the passage of 'official multiculturalism'?

Are you satisfied with politicians decision to unilaterally repatriate our constitution from England?

Are you satisfied with politicians unilaterally amending our constitution with the Charter?

Then their are other important issues relating to Aboriginals and minorities.

Do you actually feel comfortable with the government changing the direction of the country WITHOUT your INPUT.

You forgot to add the changing of the definition of marriage, the way Martin did it.

There are a lot of governmental decisions that I am not satisfied with for as long as I can remember. It's not only me...I had listened over the past years with disatisfied grumblings from others. Under different Prime Ministers.

In all the years I've lived in Canada, I don't think I remember there being any referendum at all. But then, most of the time I've been here was run by the Liberals. I hardly remember the years with Mulroney.

A lot of changes and important decisions made through all the years. Without our input. So why is this being pinned on Harper's door?

When was the last time we had a referendum?

Edited July 28, 2007 by betsy

[Leafless]

Then I must ask you what your definition of 'principled' is before we can go any further.

Being "principled" as in opposed to being self-serving. Uprightness. With integrity.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Interesting, but again these beliefs must be based on something and if it is NOT based on morals or a defined standard of rightness, 'principled' cannot really be used.

Therefore all politicians in Canada would be classified as 'unprincipled' since none follow morals or a defined standard of rightness. Would you agree or disagree that this is the case

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Adj. 1. principled - based on or manifesting objectively defined standards of rightness or morality; "principled pragmatism and unprincipled expediency"; "a principled person"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/principled

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[Leafless]

What do you both mean by "totalitarian" government?

A government controlling the country with little or NO democratic input by its citizens especially relating to amendments to our constitution.

I have to admit that I haven't been following current political news lately. Can you be specific as to why you think we are now being run by a totalitarian government?

We have always been run by a Federal Parliamentary Democracy and Constitutional Monarchy but as been made that much worse since amending our constitution in 1982 with the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms'.

We have very little real democracy in this country.

[Leafless]

In all the years I've lived in Canada, I don't think I remember there being any referendum at all. But then, most of the time I've been here was run by the Liberals. I hardly remember the years with Mulroney.

A lot of changes and important decisions made through all the years. Without our input. So why is this being pinned on Harper's door?

It is not being pinned on Mr. Harper's door but it simply the fact Mr. Harper is carrying on 'the totalitarian tradition' when you said Mr. Harper is a principled person.

When was the last time we had a referendum?

The last referendum we had excluding Quebec's referendums on separation is the referendum in 1992 on proposed constitutional changes in the Charlottetown Accord.

There is proof right there that referendums can be allowed but politicians prefer totalitarian rule and do not want Canadians to be part of a democratic process in allowing the 'will of Canadians' to trump politicians decissions.

[noahbody]

Then I must ask you what your definition of 'principled' is before we can go any further.

Being "principled" as in opposed to being self-serving. Uprightness. With integrity.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Interesting, but again these beliefs must be based on something and if it is NOT based on morals or a defined standard of rightness, 'principled' cannot really be used.

Therefore all politicians in Canada would be classified as 'unprincipled' since none follow morals or a defined standard of rightness. Would you agree or disagree that this is the case

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adj. 1. principled - based on or manifesting objectively defined standards of rightness or morality; "principled pragmatism and unprincipled expediency"; "a principled person"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/principled

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From Mirriam Webster, a dictionary for which people will actually pay: (2): habitual devotion to right

[betsy]

Then I must ask you what your definition of 'principled' is before we can go any further.

Being "principled" as in opposed to being self-serving. Uprightness. With integrity.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Motivated by the belief of doing what is right.

Interesting, but again these beliefs must be based on something and if it is NOT based on morals or a defined standard of rightness, 'principled' cannot really be used.

Therefore all politicians in Canada would be classified as 'unprincipled' since none follow morals or a defined standard of rightness. Would you agree or disagree that this is the case

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adj. 1. principled - based on or manifesting objectively defined standards of rightness or morality; "principled pragmatism and unprincipled expediency"; "a principled person"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/principled

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Let me correct my statement.

Motivated by the belief of doing what he believes is right.

As I've said in the previous post, his principles may not be the same as that of others. One of the principles he stood on during the time of debate in Parliament around the time the USA was issuing a threat to bomb Iraq, or had just bombed it (can't remember exactly)....Harper had spoke of the obligation to aid an ally and neighbor. It was that moment I had come to admire Harper, as he stood up alone in Parliament, staunchly debating for help to the USA.....knowing by doing so with the clime of anti-Bush and anti-Americanism could've meant the end of his political career.

Some of us (for whatever reasons) may not see coming to the rescue of a friend in need, or fulfillment of an obligation and duty to stand side-by-side with an ally (especially one we've stood beside with before in other wars) as a matter of having principles, but there are those who see and believe it that way (for whatever reasons).

The definition from webster:

Principle - a fundamental truth, law, doctrine, or motivating force, upon which others are based [moral principles],

A rule of conduct esp. of right conduct, such rules collectively, adherence to them; integrity, uprightness [a man of principle]

Principled - having principles, as of conduct: often in hyphenated compounds [high-principled]

[betsy]

In all the years I've lived in Canada, I don't think I remember there being any referendum at all. But then, most of the time I've been here was run by the Liberals. I hardly remember the years with Mulroney.

A lot of changes and important decisions made through all the years. Without our input. So why is this being pinned on Harper's door?

It is not being pinned on Mr. Harper's door but it simply the fact Mr. Harper is carrying on 'the totalitarian tradition' when you said Mr. Harper is a principled person.

Harper is in an un-enviable position right now. For someone like him who obviously was principled when he started out (and I am not saying he is not a principled man now), it must be much harder for him, killing him inside knowing he has to set aside some of his principles: that, or losing the foothold the Conservatives has on power.

The Conservatives are hanging on by their fingertips...and losing it now would mean the Conservatives may not see the chance to ever sit again as Prime Minister for a lifetime.

Society is peopled mostly by voters who had been pandered to, indoctrined to and known only of Liberal idealogy.

These voters had also been brainwashed to associate Conservative idealogy to Hitler, Supremacists, racism, hostility to immigrants...therefore they regard Conservatives with an almost built-in skepticism.

If the Liberals win again....the next generation will go through the same indoctrination. SO it may be a Liberal - or a very socialist party that will be in power for generations to come.

The Conservatives know that they have to change this attitude...this frame of mind of the people about them.

They know the people need to be "de-programmed".

But how do they go about doing that?

It is depressing, the way our society is going down. And yes, I do agree with your view that Canada is only enjoying a semblance of democracy that we are being allowed to enjoy. And I do pin the blame on that on the socialist-huggers who had propped up socialist-leaners like the Liberals and the NDP!

The focused goal for universal daycare (having complete access to our children starting from infancy), the focused fight to have the gun registry (to know who have arms, and could easily lead to dis-arming the population), every concievable social programs that has the large segment of society dependent on the government (for better control and manipulations).....are signs of what is up ahead.

The question is: do we as Conservatives hammer Harper now and split the party...at the most crucial time?

So we portray Harper now as a poor choice for us Conservatives - meaning then that he is a poor choice to lead the nation! That is the message we're giving.

And we are providing the oppositions with valuable tools to blow our party to smithereens!

Therefore all politicians in Canada would be classified as 'unprincipled' since none follow morals or a defined standard of rightness. Would you agree or disagree that this is the case

When one is in politics...it is hard to remain quite principled, I guess. Let us be realistic.

Edited July 28, 2007 by betsy

[Leafless]

Harper had spoke of the obligation to aid an ally and neighbor. It was that moment I had come to admire Harper, as he stood up alone in Parliament, staunchly debating for help to the USA.....knowing by doing so with the clime of anti-Bush and anti-Americanism could've meant the end of his political career.

So, you feel this makes Harper a principled man while neglecting the fact Canada has over 80 treaty level defence agreements with the U.S.

Maybe Mr. Harper simply had no choice. Perhaps the U.S. would be rebuffed no further by the actions of previous Liberal governments.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admpol/content.asp...1065FCED902F%7D

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/focus/canada-us/agree_e.asp

[Leafless]

The question is: do we as Conservatives hammer Harper now and split the party...at the most crucial time?

So we portray Harper now as a poor choice for us Conservatives - meaning then that he is a poor choice to lead the nation! That is the message we're giving.

And we are providing the oppositions with valuable tools to blow our party to smithereens!

Believe me, I don't envy Mr. Harper and wish him the best of luck, especially being forced to participate within a dysfunctional political system caused primarily by the 'clash of English vs. French ideologies defined by Mr. Trudeau and the Liberals under the guise of culture.

Therefore all politicians in Canada would be classified as 'unprincipled' since none follow morals or a defined standard of rightness. Would you agree or disagree that this is the case

When one is in politics...it is hard to remain quite principled, I guess. Let us be realistic.

I am realistic.

It was you using wrong terminology all along relating to 'principled'.

Anyways, I am glad we agree.

[Moxie]

My two cents, I'm a Classical Liberal who bends to the moderate right. I am very angry at the Liberal Party of Canada, it's not a "Liberal" party it is a left/left hardcore Socialist Party. It's gone so far left it can't stand up anymore it sidles sideways. The NDP are hardcore Communist and Crazies, I hold them in utter contempt no sane person would vote for this party. The Liberals put in place enormous powers in Federal Agencies to ensure their agenda stays on track when they get booted out of office. In order for this country to become a moderate left or right country again we need to embrace Freedom of Speech, (liberals hate that one the truth will set us free from them and their utopia state mentality) we need to stop pandering to minority groups and we need senate reform asap. However I'm not a Harper fan, he's a liar who will do what he must to stay in power. He makes no attempt to lead Canada away from the socialist path the liberals have laid down. Like most Politicians he will never cede the power the Liberals bestowed upon themselves in the name of "Social Conscience" (lack of one). I will however chew my left hand down to the bone before I'll ever vote for the lying cheating elitest in the Liberal Party, I can only hope Canadians see what this party has put in motion to turn this country into another Sweden where we serve the elites in Government for a life time or get jailed if we speak out. Emotive you say Lefties, yea right ask Free Dominion how it feels to be persecuted because of an Opinion. It's the first step the socialist take, shutting up those who loathe their idiology using organizations like the antiquated Human Rights Commission to silence those who oppose them. Next it's the police and finally utter silence from their detractors. For Canada to move away from the Utopia Agenda we need a Conservative Majority, it taste bad but I think the future of this country will be forever link to Eurabia if we don't turn away from using Europe as OUR role model.