way to cut healthcare costs

[geoffrey]

There is no a problem with health care costs in Canada. The problem is with health care spending. There is too little and often ineffective.

Your delusional. We spend way more than the Europeans and we have terrible care in comparison. The non-financial costs are also staggering. The lost time waiting for care and the impact on people's lives waiting and dying for care in a broken system is huge.

[Posit]

The system is terrible because bean counters (MBAs) have convinced government that the Health Care system should be run like business. They have done the same thing with other institutions like education etc. Institutions are not businesses. They are not designed to create profits and should be run like stogy and sometimes bloated government institutions. We must input money in to get good services out and I'll tell you I would rather have a doctor taking the time to put in as many stitches as needed to close a gaping wound then to lie there while he is deciding whether a band aid or crazy glue would do as good a job...just because a bean counter says it is cheaper.

If you want cheap service then move to Mexico.

[ScottSA]

The system is terrible because bean counters (MBAs) have convinced government that the Health Care system should be run like business. They have done the same thing with other institutions like education etc. Institutions are not businesses. They are not designed to create profits and should be run like stogy and sometimes bloated government institutions. We must input money in to get good services out and I'll tell you I would rather have a doctor taking the time to put in as many stitches as needed to close a gaping wound then to lie there while he is deciding whether a band aid or crazy glue would do as good a job...just because a bean counter says it is cheaper.

If you want cheap service then move to Mexico.

So, what exactly is your argument...that private healthcare is cheap and fast, and public healthcare is slow and expensive? And you don't like that why?

[Posit]

Private health care is far from cheap. The only reason it is faster is because it can exclude all those who need diagnostic services but can't afford them. On the other hand I would rather go to a public hospital where dedicated doctors and nurses are than to go someplace where the doctor is worrying about being late for a ski trip to Colorado trying to rush through open heart surgery.

The point is the health care system can't run without money. And the last twenty years when ever the Conservatives have gotten in to office they have gutted it in exchange for tax cuts for their friends. If you want a quality shirt, you don't buy it a WalMart.

Government MUST put sufficient money into the institution and let it provide services. While bean counters are looking for efficiencies, they could start by eliminating their own jobs for starters.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The point is the health care system can't run without money. And the last twenty years when ever the Conservatives have gotten in to office they have gutted it in exchange for tax cuts for their friends. If you want a quality shirt, you don't buy it a WalMart.

The Chretien/Martin team were not Conservatives, but they sure as hell "gutted" health care transfer payments to balance the budget. 'Course, there was some left over for the Libranos.

[Renegade]

Government MUST put sufficient money into the institution and let it provide services.

Why MUST it?

[KO2]

That's right, why must it?

Health care starts and ends for all practical purposes with the individual.

It is primarily up to you to look after your own health care.

Treatment of the ill is different than healthcare and can only be affordable for a society in which each individual does their duty to society by taking care of their own health to the best of their ability, first.

Otherwise these slackers want to smoke, drink, and live the devil may care, but perfectly legal life, and ask me to pick up the tab

Then they also blame me for my healthier habits because they are illegal

[geoffrey]

On the other hand I would rather go to a public hospital where dedicated doctors and nurses are than to go someplace where the doctor is worrying about being late for a ski trip to Colorado trying to rush through open heart surgery.

You don't think there are Canadian doctors that do that? Or do you actually think American doctors are more motivated by profit and ski trips? That's a sad sad unjustified bias.

The doctors are way more dedicated down south because their reputations determine their incomes. The team of doctors dealing with my sick sister in Minnesota 4 or 5 hours a day one on one were far more dedicated to her cause then the one she saw every few months when he had time in Canada.

The point is the health care system can't run without money. And the last twenty years when ever the Conservatives have gotten in to office they have gutted it in exchange for tax cuts for their friends. If you want a quality shirt, you don't buy it a WalMart.

Your right. Do you want to pay more taxes for inefficiency or change the system to operate like it does in Europe... cheaper, higher quality and more choice/freedom?

Government MUST put sufficient money into the institution and let it provide services. While bean counters are looking for efficiencies, they could start by eliminating their own jobs for starters.

You talk like money is unlimited. The real world doesn't exist in that state.

[Posit]

Money IS unlimited. The government can tax you into poverty and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

Health care requires money and as Canadians we have opted for universal health care. No compromises, just complete public health coverage for everyone regardless of income, status, creed or colour. IF YOU want private health care, move to the US. If not then just keep paying. it is likely you are not paying your share of the taxes anyway....

[geoffrey]

it is likely you are not paying your share of the taxes anyway....

I like these little personal shots.

Anyways. I would be far more suspect of the guy that believes we should be taxed into poverty for health care.

Universal health care exists in France, costs less, there are limited waiting lists and people have choice in care. This false dilemma is obviously an attempt to protect something else... like a cushy civil service job in Health Canada or a union nurse position.

[bush_cheney2004]

Money IS unlimited. The government can tax you into poverty and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

Health care requires money and as Canadians we have opted for universal health care. No compromises, just complete public health coverage for everyone regardless of income, status, creed or colour. IF YOU want private health care, move to the US. If not then just keep paying. it is likely you are not paying your share of the taxes anyway....

No compromises? Guess again, starting with those trips Canadians make to the US for private care, paid by the provinces when "universal health care" comes up a wee bit short and/or very untimely.

[KO2]

how to cut down health care costs?

Try to stay healthier as individuals?

[Posit]

Universal health care exists in France, costs less, there are limited waiting lists and people have choice in care.

By far the French are healthier than slothy Canadians. They eat more frequent meals, have less heart disease and are generally more fit. A system catering to a healthy population will naturally find more economies in the delivery of service than one bloated with patients filling the emergency rooms with cheezy and coke constipation. Certainly Canadians must take responsibility for our own health. However, we have opted to allow government to run the system and if prevention is not in their course of treatment (and mostly it is not) then they MUST pay whatever is needed to treat our diseases and ailments. That's what Canada is about.

Edited July 15, 2007 by Posit

[mikedavid00]

Money IS unlimited. The government can tax you into poverty and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

IF the gov't taxes you into poverty you won't have a job and there wont be an economy to take taxes from.

Look. Canada deals with about 500B in taxes a year. About 25% goes into healtchare. I'm suggesting that for healtchare to succeed we need to put tripple that amount into healthcare which of course is not possible.

Canada is not 'rich' enough to fix our healthcare system - be honest - it's barnkrupt and broken. Time to move on with our only solution to help better our system.

[mikedavid00]

By far the French are healthier than slothy Canadians. They eat more frequent meals, have less heart disease and are generally more fit.

But they smoke much more.

[Renegade]

... then they MUST pay whatever is needed to treat our diseases and ailments.

Actually no. It is completely at the discretion of the government what they should and should not pay for. For example, when the liberals came into power into Ontario they delisted some of the services which were previously covered. The Chouilli(sp?) Supreme court decision in showed that the government is not obligated to provide any level of service. It simply cannot block private providers if it cannot itself provide adequate service.

That's what Canada is about.

Is there anything besides your opinion and those of others which show that? Is medical care a consttuional guaranteed right?

Edited July 15, 2007 by Renegade

[Bonam]

Health care requires money and as Canadians we have opted for universal health care. No compromises, just complete public health coverage for everyone regardless of income, status, creed or colour. IF YOU want private health care, move to the US.

Why? I'll just keep going to a private clinic in Canada, and spending my own money as I see fit to get faster and better healthcare. Don't like it? Too bad.