way to cut healthcare costs

[FascistLibertarian]

Hey

2 easy to do things

1) people living above the poverty line pay $20 per visit as a user fee (to stop people going to the hospital for stupid things)

2) If the action that gets u in the hospital is your own fault (drinking and driving, smoking etc) you pay the first $5,000.

What do people think?

Any other ideas on how 2 reduce costs?

[margrace]

Maybe it should be more than $20, local cottagers heading home with children with earaches, colds etc. flooded our local hospitals emmerg because they knew you got faster care there. They would have to wait for appointments with their doctor when they got home.

[Mad_Michael]

2) If the action that gets u in the hospital is your own fault (drinking and driving, smoking etc) you pay the first $5,000.

What do people think?

Any other ideas on how 2 reduce costs?

Everything is always your own fault.

Knowingly getting into a car is to accept the high risk of accidental death and/or dismemberment. Knowingly walking down the street is to accept the risk of getting hit by a car or breathing unhealthy exhaust fumes. Knowingly eating chocolate, salt, fried foods, white bread is to accept the risk of heart disease, hypertension and/or obesity. Riding a skateboard, rollerblades or bicycle or downhill skiing is also to knowing accept a significant risk of accidental injury. Going outdoors in the summer is to risk an insect bite and potential disease.

I could list another hundred things that people knowingly do that put themselves at risk of injury or unhealth.

Everything is always one's own fault, and thus, your plan here to reduce cost is just a plan to eliminate health coverage period. There is no defensible line that you can draw here that is not arbitary and subjective.

[ScottSA]

I could list another hundred things that people knowingly do that put themselves at risk of injury or unhealth.

Everything is always one's own fault, and thus, your plan here to reduce cost is just a plan to eliminate health coverage period. There is no defensible line that you can draw here that is not arbitary and subjective.

Not quite. The line obviously has to be subjective, but hardly arbitrary. Drinking and driving is an entirely controllable action that carries a significantly higher risk of injury than simply getting in a car. Smoking is clearly an unhealthy lifestyle choice, and while I strongly support smoker's rights, I think they should pay their own medical bills if they're still smoking when they have smoking-related illnesses. Nothing arbitrary about that either.

[Canapathy]

Any other ideas on how 2 reduce costs?

Ban public sector unions, put greater emphasis on preventative medicine, increase private delivery of health services, large scale, long term promotion of active healthy living, stop building car based suburbs.... we could also magically balance the demographic groups in Canada, tax illness or cure the common cold too. Edited July 12, 2007 by Canapathy

[Xman]

Why reduce costs? Spend more! Make Canadian health care the best in the world. Like education, it's an investment into our future.

[Xman]

Ban public sector unions

Disagree. Workers need protections.

put greater emphasis on preventative medicine

Agree.

increase private delivery of health services

Disagree. Profit-making does not save money. The mission becomes maximizing profits. Instaed, put the monwy toward more public delivery of service. Ensure a high level of care for less.

large scale, long term promotion of active healthy living

Agree.

stop building car based suburbs

Agree.

[ScottSA]

Ban public sector unions

Disagree. Workers need protections.

put greater emphasis on preventative medicine

Agree.

increase private delivery of health services

Disagree. Profit-making does not save money. The mission becomes maximizing profits. Instaed, put the monwy toward more public delivery of service. Ensure a high level of care for less.

large scale, long term promotion of active healthy living

Agree.

stop building car based suburbs

Agree.

Is there a point to this post? Do you imagine that anyone cares whether you agree or not?

[Xman]

There. There. It's OK. Transfer that anger onto me. It's good for you.

[Renegade]

1) people living above the poverty line pay $20 per visit as a user fee (to stop people going to the hospital for stupid things)

Good idea. I would actually institute it a different way. People pay 20% of the cost of their medical procedure. Minimium $20, Maximum $1000.

2) If the action that gets u in the hospital is your own fault (drinking and driving, smoking etc) you pay the first $5,000.

That is going to be unenforcable. How do you know something is someone's fault. If someone had one cigarette in their life and they get cancer later in life, can you prove that it was the cigarette?

Any other ideas on how 2 reduce costs?

More severely limit the expensive procedures which are available. Allow people to buy supplemental insurance to cover these procedures if they so choose.

Cap the amount of healthcare dollars spent on an individual in any year.

Put in a yearly deductable. (ie you pay ALL of your medical costs up to the deductable limit)

[noahbody]

increase private delivery of health services

Disagree. Profit-making does not save money. The mission becomes maximizing profits. Instaed, put the monwy toward more public delivery of service. Ensure a high level of care for less.

This depends on who pays for the profit. If a user-pay system is run parallel to our publicly funded system, it will save the public purse.

In our current system though, profit-making is an large problem. Every doctor's office is a private business that generates income through number of visits. Doctors make more if they're inefficient and ineffective.

One thing to consider would be to having salaried doctors in walk-in clinics. You might not get the best in the class to fill the job, the walk-in cases don't require top doctors.

[Xman]

increase private delivery of health services

Disagree. Profit-making does not save money. The mission becomes maximizing profits. Instaed, put the monwy toward more public delivery of service. Ensure a high level of care for less.

This depends on who pays for the profit. If a user-pay system is run parallel to our publicly funded system, it will save the public purse.

In our current system though, profit-making is an large problem. Every doctor's office is a private business that generates income through number of visits. Doctors make more if they're inefficient and ineffective.

One thing to consider would be to having salaried doctors in walk-in clinics. You might not get the best in the class to fill the job, the walk-in cases don't require top doctors.

A system that keeps track of visits opposed to salary?

[Topaz]

This paying out of pocket is wrong for many reasons. Anyone that has a job is already paying taxes that goes to the healthcare system, even the lower income which got hit with an increase in income tax! The upper-middle in Ontario also got hit with a health tax so anyone who wants to pay out of pocket , we'll let you! There are some people who abuse their body by smoking, drugs,overeating and there are people who don't but still get sick. The money should go to research, nurses, doctors the main sources of helping the patients. The governments bring in taxes on cigarette, liquor, and any other sins, and should go into the healthcare system. I feel once the babyboomers die off, the healthcare system may not be in as bad way as it is now, except perhaps shortage in nurses and doctors.

[mikedavid00]

Hey

2 easy to do things

1) people living above the poverty line pay $20 per visit as a user fee (to stop people going to the hospital for stupid things)

2) If the action that gets u in the hospital is your own fault (drinking and driving, smoking etc) you pay the first $5,000.

What do people think?

Any other ideas on how 2 reduce costs?

Ok what about 50,000 people living in Lebanon who are not paying taxes or are not even residents of Canada?

[guyser]

Ok what about 50,000 people living in Lebanon who are not paying taxes or are not even residents of Canada?

What about them? If they are gone longer than 180 days, then they do not have health care. When their card gets swiped it will be either rejected or a bill is sent.

They still pay, or rather have to file a tax return .So the Gov gets money and doesnt pay out, notwithstanding that dumb rescue .

[Renegade]

Ok what about 50,000 people living in Lebanon who are not paying taxes or are not even residents of Canada?

Non-residents of Canada are not entitled to free healthcare.

[Renegade]

They still pay, or rather have to file a tax return .So the Gov gets money and doesnt pay out,

The are not obligated to file a tax return if they are not a Canadian resident.

[guyser]

The are not obligated to file a tax return if they are not a Canadian resident.

Correction noted. I was assuming they had property to return to , otherwise why come here, thus the filing.

[KO2]

The surest way to cut health care costs is to trian you population to be more self reliant in all aspects of personal choice including food, exercise, substances.

This, coupled with the removal of the medical proffession from the administration of it.

It must be run by an independent board/structure that reflects mainly, our interest.

The public's interests are long term and stable.

Although I did access a cat scan recently because of an assuault, it was 1999 when I last accessed the healthcare system.

At that time I paid for the medical exam myself for my proffessional license.

Now, I don't believe it is only the fact that I smoke copious amounts of herbal medicine, for this great health that I suffer.

It could also be other aspects of my lifestyle, I cycle or walk, I don't use the legal poisons, Alcohol or Tobacco and most import of all, I try not to stress out about anything.

I truly believe that for some this is the miracle health benefit of Marijuana.

To be able to live without stress is slightly uphoric.

You might do it with valium, I could do it for pennies a day if I could grow my own "Miracle Medicine"

Such things would have been approved by my Grandmother, who was a midwife and hebal medicine woman.

This was the way health care was done less than a century before. A self reliant thing that might be assisted by a doctor.

today the doctors have marketed their craft to the extent people believe they are omnipotent.

They also regularly ratchet up ouir fears with scares of global epidemics.

I learned long ago the end of life is not ours to stave off, or worry about, or even predict.

The only thing that is important is how you accept it in the moment it comes.

All that aside, it should not be the goal of doctors to make us feel that it is important that we try every avenue, impossible though they may be to stave off death.....

It is a conundrum to me tha the religious claim we should never interfere with life while it is yet unborn, but it is ok to the bankrupt the health care system in order to prolong life from 87 to 89.

Here is where I would want the ability to check out if I needed to.

Why are they so afraid of meeting Jesus?

My focus, at the instant I realized that death was in the next moment, or even months down the line, would be to accept the inevitable and wonder where this new, mystery soaring flight would take me.

If the moment was in an instant, I would try to embrace it with the same eager grin of concentration that came over me as I gave the command, "Clear."

This would release my hang glider from the ground crew, directly into the maw of a "Fusion Dragon"--is my term for a thermal--as it climbed past the launch site. The cross country flights were always a magical mystery tour of undetermined adventure.

I don't believe in heaven per say, but I believe in going out on an optomistic note.

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2

[mikedavid00]

Ok what about 50,000 people living in Lebanon who are not paying taxes or are not even residents of Canada?

Non-residents of Canada are not entitled to free healthcare.

They only need to be here for 90 days to get medical benefits.

Basically they are not paying into the system and using these services. Funny, India doesn't allow this, why do we?

The suggestion during the Lebanon fiasco was to automatically revoke all citizenships from anyone who has been living outside of Canada for three years with dual citizenships. They would then be able to 'apply again'.

The majority both left and right (AT THE TIME) were supporting this idea but of course it's political death in Canada so nothing was done.

Now the economy is supposedly good so Canada 'has no problems' at the moment and 'everything is all good' to most people right now.

[Renegade]

They only need to be here for 90 days to get medical benefits.

Basically they are not paying into the system and using these services.

You make it sound like they can be visiting Canada for 6 months and are entitled to medical benefits after 90 days. They are not. They must move back to Canada and re-establish PERMANANT residency to get the benefits. Eligibility

When they file there tax return, they will pay based upon they move to Canada, so I don't see your point.

Perhaps you are suggesting that medical benefits should be withheld from those who don't pay taxes? If so, why bother, just change the system to pay as you go.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Renegade

[Keepitsimple]

I think the logical place to start is to begin sending people an annual "statement of account". This wouldn't be a bill that you had to pay, but would detail all the services and associated charges. It would accomplish two things right away. One, it would make people aware of the actual cost that they were incurring and two, it would allow for spotting any fraudulent charges for services that were never rendored. A third use is that it would be the first step towards making people accept that maybe one day, a co-payment might be a reasonable thing to do. The main goal however, is to make people understand that Health Care is not "free".

This idea pops up every now and then - it did in Ontario about 10 years ago....but to my knowledge, it still is not in place in any province.

[Drea]

What about those of us who rarely use doctors' services?

My statement would be at a zero balance and they would have to spend another $100,000 just to tell me that. More administration costs is not going to fix the system. IMO user fees would stop people from running to emerg or the doc for every little sniffle.

[geoffrey]

I think the logical place to start is to begin sending people an annual "statement of account". This wouldn't be a bill that you had to pay, but would detail all the services and associated charges.

I'd like the government to provide one for all expenditures, not just health!

[Posit]

There is no a problem with health care costs in Canada. The problem is with health care spending. There is too little and often ineffective.