Jack Layton Says Surrender.....

[M.Dancer]

He has my full support.

That's obvious, and thankfully one of the reasons they will never have power.

[Peter F]

Didn't see you anywhere nearby egging on one warlord or another.

Maybe your eyes were closed but I was a big fan of Ahmad Shah Massoud. Follwed his career closely as he forst fought the russians then the Taliban.

Good for you. And I cheer on the Seattle Seahawks. And we both stayed the fuck out of Afghanistan.

Wich reveals exactly where our prioritys lie.

If I were you I would avoid attempting smart comebacks.....they don't quite work for you.

...but wait, you said teh same people who fought the Soviets are fighting us....yet here is the Lion of the Panjshir who made the Red Army tremble with his daring and courage and lo...he was the sworn enemy of the Taliban.....

So?

EDIT: Ohhhh. ok. I'll mail him a hero cookie.

sui

Like I said, smart comebacks aren't your forte. He was murdered by an Al Qaeda suicide bomber, sept 9, 2001

Good man. too bad you can't actually make an argument about negotiations.

[M.Dancer]

Didn't see you anywhere nearby egging on one warlord or another.

Maybe your eyes were closed but I was a big fan of Ahmad Shah Massoud. Follwed his career closely as he forst fought the russians then the Taliban.

Good for you. And I cheer on the Seattle Seahawks. And we both stayed the fuck out of Afghanistan.

Wich reveals exactly where our prioritys lie.

If I were you I would avoid attempting smart comebacks.....they don't quite work for you.

...but wait, you said teh same people who fought the Soviets are fighting us....yet here is the Lion of the Panjshir who made the Red Army tremble with his daring and courage and lo...he was the sworn enemy of the Taliban.....

So?

EDIT: Ohhhh. ok. I'll mail him a hero cookie.

sui

Like I said, smart comebacks aren't your forte. He was murdered by an Al Qaeda suicide bomber, sept 9, 2001

Good man. too bad you can't actually make an argument about negotiations.

Why> The link you posted made it for me, or don't you read the stuff you post?

[ScottSA]

I think it is you who doe's not have a goddamed clue about Canada's role in Afghanistan.

nice. he's only a soldier over there NOW.

Could you be anymore pompous?

such ignorance.

Yes, he is a soldier over there right now. and right now, as a soldier over there putting his life on the line to achieve to goals of the canadian government - he still doesnt know why he's there. He thinks he's there to defeat evil Islam the Taliban and Al Queda. That may very well be his own personal ambition but thats not why the Canadian government sent him there...and he knows that very well.

I might suggest you refrain from drinking and posting at the same time

I suggest you stop kissing ass.

It's a shame that you don't see, first, the fact that you are going beyond insult in your dealings with active duty soldiers, and second, that you don't have the elementary common sense to see what "negotiations" mean in this context. What should we negotiate about?

1 We can't negotiate on the basis of political power sharing, because we believe in democracy and they believe in theocratic authoritarianism. It would be like negotiating a form of government with Hitler. We would have to convince the Taliban that democracy is better than ordained theocracy, that Jefferson is better than Mohammed and smarter than Allah. How likely is that?

2 We can't negotiate on the basis of territorial division, because if we split the north from the south, the Taliban will constantly be on the warpath. What is peace to them if Allah wants it otherwise?

3 They have no more intention of bargaining in good faith than the North Vietnamese did in the Paris peace talks. You must be aware that they put a fair bit of stock in what the Koran says, and the Koran is quite explicit that the Musselman can lie through his teeth, construct temporary truces, and make fake peace treaties if it will help the Ummah bring other lands under it's influence.

You and Jack are completely fooling yourselves that these folks see things the way you do. Peace is paramount to you and Jack. "Better red than dead" is the gang of folks you would have hung out with a few years ago. You see peace as the ultimate virtue, which is fine, since you can afford to for now, but the Taliban doesn't. You believe that everyone just wants peace. The Taliban scoffs at people like you for imagining that peace is anything but an afterthought to the success of Jihad.

[margrace]

What a lot of BS, Armchair warriors sending someonel elses children and grandchildren to the the slaughter. It you think this was is just why aren't you there?

[weaponeer]

Typical leftards, you believe in freedom, democracy and human rights, you just don't want to do anything about it!!! Just make excusses for the enemy...

Typical right-wing two-faced hack. Didn't hear you chomping at the bit to liberate the downtrodden in North Korea...nope. silence regarding democracy and human rights there.

Actually I am highly in favor of doing what you suggest. I would love to see all the people of the world stand up to oppressive regimes like N Korea, Iran etc... and give these people the rights they deserve as human beings....

[M.Dancer]

What a lot of BS, Armchair warriors sending someonel elses children and grandchildren to the the slaughter. It you think this was is just why aren't you there?

Logic like that means I should never report a crime nbecause I'm not a cop.

....just plain stupid but for you info, if I was 25years younger i would be there with my reg't The Black Watch .....

[ScottSA]

What a lot of BS, Armchair warriors sending someonel elses children and grandchildren to the the slaughter. It you think this was is just why aren't you there?

Again, a foolish thing to say, and something which shows the bancruptcy of your argument. Besides, you're talking to at least two people who are over there, and they are both in favor of it, so if your argument is that only those who are there are worthy to speak of it, you ought to STFU and listen to what they say about it, right?

[margrace]

Why is an American so interested in seeing Canadian young men killed and why aren't your over?

[margrace]

Why is an American so interested in seeing Canadian young men killed and why aren't your over? Those men over there are putting their actions where their beliefs are, why aren't you.

[weaponeer]

AQ and the talibs are religious zelots that are not interested in negotiations, they view peace talks as a sign of weakness. "Our enemy wants to talk peace, they are defeated".

ejack is a very dangerous person, not willing to stand up against AQ, talibs and islamic evil.

Canada isn't in Afghanistan to defeat AQ. We aren't even in Afghanistan to defeat the Talibs. Canada's aim in Afghanistan is to help secure the Kharzai government until such time that they can secure their own selves.

Secure the Kharzai gov't form whom, talibs and AQ, you made my point....

[weaponeer]

I have never seen such a disgusting series of posts in all of my time here at MLW.

For a smug little shit like that to openly insult a serving member of the CF's that is in Afghanistan now - I just can't begin to comprehend the thought process. It really makes me angry and ashamed at the same time. He sounds like he is actively angry with weaponeer because he IS a member of the CF's.

Maybe Canada doesn't deserve our soldiers. In fact, I'm sure that it doesn't.

I can't imagine how shit like this makes army guy and weaponeer feel.

It makes me sick and ashamed.

It is nothing I have not heard before. To quote Mr Trudeau, "I have been called worse things by better people".

The fact is the people like peterf, andrewl have most likely never been out in the real world, seen a Somalia or Afghanistan, seen real deprivatey, and I hope they never do. They are either spoiled kids spouting of crap they heard at some university, or perhaps sociaties failures whom have turned to the NDP, to be with thier like.

The left is anti-war, and anti-american, (for the most part, some exceptions) and no sane person will disagree. They do hold protests here and there, talk about human rights, womens rights, gay rights, your dogs rights etc... yet when it comes down to really doing anything they are notably absent. You see, they believe in these things, but they are not really willing to work hard, or put their lives on the line to defend this ideals. It follows the ideology of the NDP, everything is someone elses fault, corporations are to blame for everything, why should I work I am ENTITLED to this and that, the gov't should solve all my problems etc.... They never once protested in front of the Soviet embassy against Russian nukes, against their invasion of Afghanistan. They never said a word when Saddam gassed the Kurds in the 1980's. Iran says they want to "wipe Israel of the map" yet none of them form "days of action" to protest against Iran...they are full of it!!

Yes, the left does undermine the situation over here. The IEDs that kill Canadian troops and others are actually aimed at the likes of andrewl and peter "full of it". They get weak, and want too run....AQ sees Canada/Canadians as weak, and if we kill enough they will run away... thanks jack!

Now andrewl brought up some points about Afghan military history. Firstly the British situation of the 1840's. The Brits went into Afghanistan from India in order to add it to their empire, they were tere to conquor. The Brit were armed with muskets, swords and horses, turns out the Afghan tribesman were armed the same way. The Afghan tribesman outnumbered the golly old Brits and massacared them. Next the Soviet Invasion; it was just that an invasion to take over AFghanistan and add it to the commie empire. An invasion by GODLESS commies. This situation infuriated not only the Afghans, but the whole muslim world, which in turn dispatched thousand of "holy warriors" to repel the Soviet attack. The muslim fighters almost lost that war. In fact they were defeated, all but destroyed by the Soviet army that did not give a damm about human rights, peace or anything else. I was only after the USA gave the mujahadeen Stinger misslies, along with other advanced weapons systems and traing that the tide turned against the Russians. Had the USA stayed out of Afghanistan in the 1980's the Soviets would have crushed the mujahadeen.

People like this do not bother me. They are nothing to me, as I who serve in the CF am nothing to them. As for the NDP, I stand by what I have said, however I really does not matter, they will never form the gov't in Canada. I have a ceremony to go to....... goodnight

[madmax]

Peter F

You could use some manners, and a lesson in respect.

I don't support the combat mission in Afghanistan. I disagreed with it from the get go, and I don't believe it will achieve its goals. The fact that after 6 years the attacks on our forces have increased with the support for the Taliban, demonstrates that something is wrong between the actions and the results. The hearts and minds have not been won, and Canadian Forces cannot and do not trust the Afghan forces.

What does exists are large brothels in Kabul, and lots of gung ho mercenaries running around making a good buck, while our guys try to do something good, believe in a mission, that is not going to make the impact that must occur to achieve security in the country.

There is no endgame, nor can there be. There is no reason to believe that Afghans cannot defend their values and beliefs against the Taliban, yet we believe that we must be the ones to get this done.

Now there is alot of movement towards getting the forces out of this mess.

It is not better then 2001 after the invasion and it is a downhill slide.

We have had our politicians visit Pakistan with little to show.

Ask yourself a question.

What would occur with a withdrawl in Afghanistan? Would the Taliban overwhelm the country side? Would women that are beaten or raped by Afghan Men, be treated differently by Taliban Pashtuns?

Would mercenaries pick up the slack, and get out of Kabul?

What ever good the Canadian Forces do, after having seen some of these Mercenaries, I have to wonder how much influence they leave in the minds of Afghans.

And then there are the spin doctors here.....

some bold talkers who are old enough to enlist and support the troops but are too unwilling to do so, but are very effective in blaming the "left" for 6 years of trouble in Afghanistan and no significant results showing that the Karzai government has a military force that can stand on it's own.

Fact is, Pakistan backed the Taliban, a bunch of orphaned kids of the USSR war and managed to overun and secure the country in a year.

There are people here who would like us to fight forever, without military objective.

I understand Weaponeers and some of the other guys frustrations, who wear their thoughts on their sleeves. They back up what they say and mean what they believe in. I don't have a problem with them slamming any politician, be it Layton, Dion or Harper. They are the ones putting it on the line, and they have to live with the decisions that are made by politicians.

, it was some bad political choices to put our troops out there running around doing search and destroy missions, with no timelines or objectives.

Nothing will be gained staying in Afghanistan trying to kill all the Taliban or Pashtuns who move back and forth across the Pakistani Frontier.

[Army Guy]

Yes, he is a soldier over there right now. and right now, as a soldier over there putting his life on the line to achieve to goals of the canadian government - he still doesnt know why he's there. He thinks he's there to defeat evil Islam the Taliban and Al Queda. That may very well be his own personal ambition but thats not why the Canadian government sent him there...and he knows that very well.

You are spouting bullshit about our need to defeat AQ+Talibs+evil Islam. That is not our aim at all and never has been. Where did you pull this crap from?

Really it's all bullshit, i'm stunned...., I'm curious on who is directing and approving all of our military forces operations if not our government. Thats right our government, Not NATO or our military but our presently elected government. Who is responsiable for writting our rules of engagement, Our nations soldiers are not out there chasing thier own agendas, thier following orders from our government...don't like that take that up with them not bone, slam, and degrade one of our nations soldiers, just so you can make a piont, one that is false...

So how do you and some other Canadians here on this forum come up with "THATS NOT WHY OUR GOVERNMENT SENT YOU THERE FOR"....Have you not been listening to the media, our CDS comments in the media, we are taking the fight to the taliban, we are engaged in combat operations to hunt down those Taliban scumbags...we've been doing this since we first stepped off the plane day 1 of this operation...and we are still doing it today...

I don't care how each party has spun it to the media, which in turn has twisted it and feed it to the Canadian public. we have been involved in combat since day one, and will be until the day we leave, you don't have to like it, but it is historical fact...and everyone of those sitting in parliment are privey to that info, past and present...in fact that same history has been recorded for public viewing...

why we are there.

[Army Guy]

Madmax:

Thanks madmax for atleast meeting me halfway.

[AndrewL]

You are soused, right? You think that because the afghans were conquered by Arabs in the 8th century it has something to do with the afghans resisting the soviet invasion of the 20th?

Im thinking that Islam is a great source of their desire to resist being occupied by any foreign nation. I think it reasonable to offer the conjecture that had these people not taken up the religion, the soviets certainly might have had a much easier time of it. They may have even succeeded. The foreign jihadis who made their way to Afghanistan when the Russians were there were coming to the 'rescue' of the islamic brothers after all.

Historically it is a difficult (likely impossible) thing to occupy a determined muslim people. The british, russians, french, americans, canadians, turks, israelis, etc.. they all know this very well.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

It is nothing I have not heard before. To quote Mr Trudeau, "I have been called worse things by better people".

The fact is the people like peterf, andrewl have most likely never been out in the real world, seen a Somalia or Afghanistan, seen real deprivatey, and I hope they never do. They are either spoiled kids spouting of crap they heard at some university, or perhaps sociaties failures whom have turned to the NDP, to be with thier like.

I am neither on the left or the right. I am a refugee from the political spectrum. I am not anti war or anti american, nor am i pro american or pro war. I believe in freedom from nation-states entirely. If anything at this moment in life i would consider myself neo-tribalist and anti-civilization. (both the western and eastern types). I can't possibly identify with any political party i have ever heard of, nor can i identify with any culture of the civilized world. When i vote i simply vote for the opposite of the incumbent. Just to make sure change is constant. I could care less what 'side' their on. Our entire paradigm has to change.

The real worlds problems will never be solved by armies and wars. They never have been. One war has always guaranteed the next. As is the modern history of afghanistan.

The left is anti-war, and anti-american, (for the most part, some exceptions) and no sane person will disagree. They do hold protests here and there, talk about human rights, womens rights, gay rights, your dogs rights etc... yet when it comes down to really doing anything they are notably absent. You see, they believe in these things, but they are not really willing to work hard, or put their lives on the line to defend this ideals. It follows the ideology of the NDP, everything is someone elses fault, corporations are to blame for everything, why should I work I am ENTITLED to this and that, the gov't should solve all my problems etc.... They never once protested in front of the Soviet embassy against Russian nukes, against their invasion of Afghanistan. They never said a word when Saddam gassed the Kurds in the 1980's. Iran says they want to "wipe Israel of the map" yet none of them form "days of action" to protest against Iran...they are full of it!!

Nothing in your rant comes anywhere close to proving that war will solve the problems you mention. History shows that war is at best a temporary fix that causes insane hatred, and at worst a racket that lines the pocket of elites (while people like you foolishly and naively offer your lives as sacrifice).

The left certainly did protest against Saddam Hussein, and the wests complicity with him, long before the gulf war. It was only when Saddam started to misbehave that 'heroes' like you were sacrificed in order to keep him out of Saudi Arabia. Neither the gulf war nor the current debacle in Iraq have anything to do with protecting human rights. In reality both those wars major achievements were to create a human rights catastrophe. Its about power, little else.

Yes, the left does undermine the situation over here. The IEDs that kill Canadian troops and others are actually aimed at the likes of andrewl and peter "full of it". They get weak, and want too run....AQ sees Canada/Canadians as weak, and if we kill enough they will run away... thanks jack!

We are weak. We are little more than a protectorate of the US. As long as our resources are on the market we can be mostly ignored by the rest of the world.

And BTW, your portrait of me as 'wanting to run' when Canadian soldiers are killed is false. You make it sound as if i find the death of Canadian soldiers especially tragic...... people die every day in the world and most of the time is is very tragic.... there is nothing any more tragic about these young lads dying than there is about other young lives being cut short at any time, of any nationality, in any place in the world. I have sympathy for their friends and loved ones, but it has no bearing at all on how i feel about Afghanistan, its irrelevant. I think we should not be in Afghanistan because our presence there is not in my interests or my friends and family. It is eroding our security. And i am forced to pay for it against my will.

Now andrewl brought up some points about Afghan military history. Firstly the British situation of the 1840's. The Brits went into Afghanistan from India in order to add it to their empire, they were tere to conquer. The Brit were armed with muskets, swords and horses, turns out the Afghan tribesman were armed the same way. The Afghan tribesman outnumbered the golly old Brits and massacared them. Next the Soviet Invasion; it was just that an invasion to take over AFghanistan and add it to the commie empire. An invasion by GODLESS commies. This situation infuriated not only the Afghans, but the whole muslim world, which in turn dispatched thousand of "holy warriors" to repel the Soviet attack. The muslim fighters almost lost that war. In fact they were defeated, all but destroyed by the Soviet army that did not give a damm about human rights, peace or anything else. I was only after the USA gave the mujahadeen Stinger misslies, along with other advanced weapons systems and traing that the tide turned against the Russians. Had the USA stayed out of Afghanistan in the 1980's the Soviets would have crushed the mujahadeen.

Note that the american willingness to arm and befriend religious fanatics is what led directly to 9/11 and then back to afghanistan. According to Zbigniew Berzinsky (sp?) the US set a trap for the soviets by purposely using Islamic terrorism to destabilize the country and tempt the soviets to invade. The 'afghan trap' was meant to bleed the soviets. Given this, had America stayed out of Afghanistan in the late 70's it is likely the soviets never would have invaded in the first place. And you have obviously never read the soviet history of Afghanistan, it is full of the same rhetoric of human rights and peace that is offered up by the US/Nato alliance. And in fact the soviets in Afghanistan are equal partners to the human rights violations that America is currently engaged in. (domestically the soviets were far worse though, granted).

People like this do not bother me. They are nothing to me, as I who serve in the CF am nothing to them. As for the NDP, I stand by what I have said, however I really does not matter, they will never form the gov't in Canada. I have a ceremony to go to....... goodnight

All governments of Canada are the same. It makes very little difference. You are not nothing to me, you are just nothing 'special' to me.

Andrew

[Peter F]

To Weaponeer:

I knee-jerked reacted to your post where-in you called us leftoids excuse makers for the enemy and more-or-less cowards.

I should not have done so. It was extremely egotistical of me to feel insulted by your statements. I cannot, in any circumstance, understand the pressures you and everyone else in Afghanistan must be under.

I offer no excuses, only admit my lack of empathy for your position.

For what its worth. I apologize for the insults I selfishly aimed at you.

[Rue]

I was not aware there were guys in Afghan reading these posts. Now I know.

So I will say this directly to you because you need to hear it. I lived in Israel. I know terrorism. I saw it first hand. I know what it does and how it operates.

I live the way I do precisely because you decided to be a soldier and put your life on the line so I can leave in peace.

I am the first generation to live in a country where we do not fear the police, or attacks simply because we are Jewish. My ancestors dreamed of the peace I live in. It comes with a price. Your life. Your time. Your emotions. Your family.

No I am not sure how to thank you but I do.

I believe if you were not there now, doing what you do, I would not be here able to debate.

I worry that you guys are exposed. Had I known you were reading this I would not have said it out loud. I would have kept my big mouth shut.

I just wish if you guys have to be there, you get more support. Yah I am an arm-chair genius. It is easy for me to make comments. I am safe. I personally stated I wish you guys could be smaller, quicker moving and maybe not be so visible. I say that because I don't want you out in the open.

God luck. I pray for you guys. I thank you,

[AndrewL]

I believe if you were not there now, doing what you do, I would not be here able to debate.

I worry that you guys are exposed. Had I known you were reading this I would not have said it out loud. I would have kept my big mouth shut.

Huh? If Canadian soldiers were not in Afghanistan you would not be able to debate? You really think the Taliban and AQ are able to take over Canada? That is pretty silly.

Andrew

[mcqueen625]

Oh yes, the talibs are sooooo scarey, we should tremble before them.

Not relevant. Its the local tribes people that know the land and will fight indefinitely as their fathers and grandfathers did before them against the British and the Russians. Those were far more formidable foes than the ATV bound canucks.

They like to kill women and children, especially little girls, they even rape young boy, we should run away. No we should not stand up to them, they are tooo tough for us. They are real heros, they skin women alive, chop hands and heads off, really someone to look up to.... Yes Afghanistan is the superpower of the world, we should jkust let them harbour AQ and kill us at their lesiure!!!!

So, 6 years later and what has really changed?

AQ has declared war on the western world whether we like it or not. We did not run from or negotiate with the Nazis.

Actually, we were a bunch of jew haters who gladly did business with nazis at the time of WWII. This of course was not too long after we committed our own genocide against the natives. Nevertheless, AQ is little more than a murderous criminal organization, one that feeds off of nato and american expansion. You have no idea how stupid and corrupt the 'west' really is.

Typical leftards, you believe in freedom, democracy and human rights, you just don't want to do anything about it!!! Just make excusses for the enemy...

Ahh yes, the 'left' is the source of all your problems. Do yourself a favor and pick up a history book or two. Im thinking ignorance is maybe closer to the source of your actual problems.

Andrew

If you think so highly of radical Islam maybe you should move away from comfortable Canada and go live in a place like Iran where your thoughts and deeds are dictated by the local moron who runs the country. I sure hope you don't have a wife or daughters because I don't think they will appreciate being treated like a piece of property who are not allowed to be educated, and will do exactly as they are told, or else.

[Moxie]

We could start a fund raiser to help speed his voyage up MC.

I'm used to the sneer and jeers from the tree hugging peacenik crowd, don't let them bother you. Remember this group chains themselves to trees and holds Poverty Marches where all the participants are grossly obese. They have zero credibility with me, freaks geeks and losers where most of them live in Mommseys paneled basement apartment.

Members of our Military let it slide off your back like water, be grateful they don't have your back. Cowards never join the military they join Peace Marches and Parades and vote NDP a few pretend they are liberals but I don't believe them. I'm not fond of the liberal party ethos these days but they aren't cowards, just confused with the socialist dogma their party leader throws at them.

[Peter F]

We could start a fund raiser to help speed his voyage up MC.

I'm used to the sneer and jeers from the tree hugging peacenik crowd, don't let them bother you. Remember this group chains themselves to trees and holds Poverty Marches where all the participants are grossly obese. They have zero credibility with me, freaks geeks and losers where most of them live in Mommseys paneled basement apartment.

Members of our Military let it slide off your back like water, be grateful they don't have your back. Cowards never join the military they join Peace Marches and Parades and vote NDP a few pretend they are liberals but I don't believe them. I'm not fond of the liberal party ethos these days but they aren't cowards, just confused with the socialist dogma their party leader throws at them.

For the sake of our soldiers - as a card carrying member of the NDP - I accept the designation 'Coward'.

[Argus]

We could start a fund raiser to help speed his voyage up MC.

I'm used to the sneer and jeers from the tree hugging peacenik crowd, don't let them bother you. Remember this group chains themselves to trees and holds Poverty Marches where all the participants are grossly obese. They have zero credibility with me, freaks geeks and losers where most of them live in Mommseys paneled basement apartment.

Members of our Military let it slide off your back like water, be grateful they don't have your back. Cowards never join the military they join Peace Marches and Parades and vote NDP a few pretend they are liberals but I don't believe them. I'm not fond of the liberal party ethos these days but they aren't cowards, just confused with the socialist dogma their party leader throws at them.

For the sake of our soldiers - as a card carrying member of the NDP - I accept the designation 'Coward'.

As if anyone in the NDP gives a rats ass about our soldiers or what happens to them.

Even Layton was more interested in ranting about the Americans and whining about the civilian casualties in Afghanistan than he was in observing the deaths of 6 Canadian soldiers. He made it sound more like he wanted to bring them back to Canada to protect the Afghan people from their violence than to protect them from the Afghans.

[Peter F]

As if anyone in the NDP gives a rats ass about our soldiers or what happens to them.

Even Layton was more interested in ranting about the Americans and whining about the civilian casualties in Afghanistan than he was in observing the deaths of 6 Canadian soldiers. He made it sound more like he wanted to bring them back to Canada to protect the Afghan people from their violence than to protect them from the Afghans.

Your right. He did make it sound like that. I agree.

You are also right about me not giving a rats ass about our soldiers. Mea Culpa. Again you are correct.

My apologies.