Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcar

[geoffrey]

Lol.. The CBC and MSM has really gotten to you eh?

Nope, just reality.

We don't need a gun registry, we need a Doctor registry. You can sign up for the stoneage-cultured doctors, and I will choose Dr. Bernstein or Dr. James.

Sure. What do I care? If medical professionals say their training standards are similar, then let's do this. Upgrade them a little if needed. Whatever. If they are adequately trained, I don't care where they come from.

That will make things fair. Go fast track those doctors, but YOU sign up that you would like to be treated by them. I will keep myself off that list and wait for a Canadian/American doctor.

Does that sound like a good deal?

Yup.

[jdobbin]

LOL - bingo! I wasn't going to mention the obvious in an attempt at civility.

I think the start of change comes from sympathy and understanding. That seems to be sorely lacking in some posters. I don't know if they would post the same sort of stuff in the U.S. because they'd get an earful for it. Instead, they post in Canada about how bad our system is.

I hope that you'll continue to survive in such an uncertain circumstances.

There are problems in Canada as well but the principles of universality of heathcare for all citizens has remained intact.

[Peter F]

It costs about $100 per visit to a family doctor... to the system that is. An ER visit will run you $300-400ish. We need more family doctors. Unfortnately, they are driving our taxi cabs.

Lol.. The CBC and MSM has really gotten to you eh?

We don't need a gun registry, we need a Doctor registry. You can sign up for the stoneage-cultured doctors, and I will choose Dr. Bernstein or Dr. James.

That will make things fair. Go fast track those doctors, but YOU sign up that you would like to be treated by them. I will keep myself off that list and wait for a Canadian/American doctor.

Does that sound like a good deal?

Hell yeah! Where do I sign? gimme your pen...

[SkyhookJackson]

LOL - bingo! I wasn't going to mention the obvious in an attempt at civility.

But I did mention the obvious..why have millions of others with less income than you figured it out?

I must be too dim - a hard admission to make to a Bush/Cheney supporter. Enlighten me. If I get sick are you telling me to ask for a cut rate at Dr. Kevorkian's?

[mikedavid00]

Solution one. Accept and assist in upgrading foreign credientials regardless of what the protectionist Doctor's 'unions' want. More doctors mean lower doctor salaries. One of the factors in the efficency of Europe's system is a healthy supply of doctors, forcing down salary rates.

I would not want a 'doctor' from some third world university working in our system without having his/her credentials thoughly examined.

The problem with unaccredited doctors is due to the lack of intern positions for doctors that did not graduate from Canadian universities. The solution is to have the governments provide more funding for intern positions. Lowering our standards is a bad idea.

The US back in the 80's I think had a doctor shortage and resolved the problem with the help of the health insurance companies funding major schools and opening more seats in the medical schools. And yes, the marks were lowered to allow more people int becuase there were more spaces. Americans then became doctors.

Once you get into med school it has a very low fail rate. Actually I think the lowest. This is because they actually teach you things and don't play assignment games that we're all used to. They almost mentor you into becoming a dr.

Canada, I believe, does indeed have an 'elitism' problem in our medical schools. Similar to the third world, sons and daugters of other Doctors are getting 'preference' over other people who just want 'in'. It's known that there is not much seating space to get in. Marks to enter are *increadibly* high, and we just don't turn out enough doctors. This is a typical Canadian 'elitism' issue where there is a fight to keep the schools small and exclusive.

Again, private health insurance and corporations are the answer to help fund and expand these medica learning facilities.

As far as stoneage dr's go, in Hamilton they tried to beta test a fast track program where you would spend a day or two examining case studies and giving recommendations. A medical panel would read over the answers and then deem them competant enough to practice.

Well, all failed. And I believe only %20 of class even got the first case study correct.

In the 3rd world, you get passed by who know and who your family is. We don't really live in the third world so we can't comprehend my last sentance. But a Pakistani co-worker I used to work with said it best:

"In Pakistan there is a saying; under every rock there is a Doctor... and btw they get paid gov't minimum wage too".

So bleeding hearts like Geoferry who works with his 'highly skilled and smart' immigrants can choose these people to operate on him.

I think I'll pass and wait for:

Adams, Dr. David Owen

184 Meadowlark Shop Ctr

156 St & 87 Ave NW

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, T5R 5W9

(780) 484-1122 ( Phone )

(780) 489-4121 ( Fax )

Accepting New Patients: Yes

Gender: Male

Physician Status: Active

Practicing in Alberta: Yes

Qualifications

Specialty: General Surgery

Practice Limited To: N/A

Approval(s): N/A

Degree: MD -Doctor of Medicine

University of Western Ontario, 1969

[mcqueen625]

Canadian's like to think our system is the best in the world even though the World Health Organization puts us around the 30th spot. Hopefully this added public scrutiny will get Canadian's to wake up to the realty of a failing healthcare system.

Not doing anything about it just doesn’t cut it anymore, should we wait till the baby boomers hit the system en masse before trying to change things? The Senate and 5 provinces have already reported unsustainable rates of healthcare cost increases. That leaves it to a parallel private and public system as a solution.

Let’s be a little more proactive Canada, stop denying the sick access to healthcare for your own ideology.

A great idea, but first we need to reestablish wide spread employer sponsored healthcare insurance, and for government to step on the medical insurance industry. and not allow them to screen out anyone who has a pre-existing condition. Most insurance companies before Medicare used to insure everyone in a family, but now they have taken to scrutenizing the applicants and their families for pre-existing condition and then denying them healthcare coverage. Coverage should be for everyone, not just the healthy. It's certainly not a case of the insurance industry being on the verge of bankruptcy, in fact the continue to report record profits each and every year. In many cases even when an insured person becomes ill in the case of Disability Insurance, the insurance industry first denies the claims even against medical evidence, and when that doesn't work they explore ways to disqualify the claimant from benefits. That is a case of politicians climbing into bed with the insurance executives, and the people wind up getting anything but a good nights sleep.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the start of change comes from sympathy and understanding. That seems to be sorely lacking in some posters. I don't know if they would post the same sort of stuff in the U.S. because they'd get an earful for it. Instead, they post in Canada about how bad our system is.

Nope..we post all over the place, especially in the US (e.g. NPR). Sympathy and understanding don't pay the bills. There are millions of Sub-Saharan Africans without basic food, water, and sanitation (let alone "health care"), but some fat ass North Americans are worried about "free" health care for all "citizens" as a higher priority.

If you want me to jump onboard the sympathy bandwagon for suffering humankind, let's see just how dedicated you are to the cause.

Keep your pretend system which already is two-tier and getting more private each day. Money talks...bullshit walks.

[jbg]

There will also be problems in healthcare until the population, or the baby boomers, slowly die off and then the population will correct the need for healthcare. We all share part of the problem, the patient , their life-style, the province and the Feds.

The problem in healthcare in both of our countries is that technological advances increases rather than reduces costs. As more and more can be done, the treatments, being more sophisticated, cost more and more. Ditto medications.

It's an unlimited demand for a product, that to all Canadians and many Americans, is apparently free or cheap. Someone else is paying the difference. It's that simple.

[jdobbin]

If I get sick are you telling me to ask for a cut rate at Dr. Kevorkian's?

That would be a sin. I think you'd be told that you'd have to suffer instead.

Be sure to vote for the party that will do a better job for healthcare in the U.S. Time for a change at the top.

[bush_cheney2004]

That would be a sin. I think you'd be told that you'd have to suffer instead.

Be sure to vote for the party that will do a better job for healthcare in the U.S. Time for a change at the top.

Oh great...now we have a Canadian telling Americans how to vote. Which party would that be?

Canadians for Kerry...Yea!

[margrace]

That would be a sin. I think you'd be told that you'd have to suffer instead.

Be sure to vote for the party that will do a better job for healthcare in the U.S. Time for a change at the top.

Oh great...now we have a Canadian telling Americans how to vote. Which party would that be?

Canadians for Kerry...Yea!

Well it seems we have Americans on here who think they know how Canada should be run so whats the difference

[jdobbin]

Well it seems we have Americans on here who think they know how Canada should be run so whats the difference

It seems we hit a soft spot. And funny how some people get all hot about posts that are not even directed at them. Time for someone to cool down.

[margrace]

Well it seems we have Americans on here who think they know how Canada should be run so whats the difference

It seems we hit a soft spot. And funny how some people get all hot about posts that are not even directed at them. Time for someone to cool down.

Ah its okay for them to critize us but heaven forbid that we should return the favour.

[SkyhookJackson]

Well it seems we have Americans on here who think they know how Canada should be run so whats the difference

It seems we hit a soft spot. And funny how some people get all hot about posts that are not even directed at them. Time for someone to cool down.

Yike! Sorry if I stepped on any toes. I'm an American who wished I lived in Canada. Actually, maybe that will happen someday since my husband has dual citizenship.

[jdobbin]

Yike! Sorry if I stepped on any toes. I'm an American who wished I lived in Canada. Actually, maybe that will happen someday since my husband has dual citizenship.

I don't think anyone was referring to you. And I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms in Canada.

[Michael Bluth]

Yike! Sorry if I stepped on any toes. I'm an American who wished I lived in Canada. Actually, maybe that will happen someday since my husband has dual citizenship.

I don't think anyone was referring to you. And I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms in Canada.

Skyhook don't worry about people trying to impose their view of how this board should be run on you.

Nothing in your posts appeared offensive to me. Doesn't really matter as I'm not a mod. Only Charles Anthony and Greg have those powers. Anybody else is just exercising power they don't have.

[jdobbin]

The problem in healthcare in both of our countries is that technological advances increases rather than reduces costs. As more and more can be done, the treatments, being more sophisticated, cost more and more. Ditto medications.

It's an unlimited demand for a product, that to all Canadians and many Americans, is apparently free or cheap. Someone else is paying the difference. It's that simple.

There are some contrasts between Canada and the U.S.

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/s...exHealth/1/1/9/

Canadians pay about 9 per cent of GDP to insure 100 per cent of citizens; Americans expend more than 14 per cent of GDP to insure 85 per cent of the population. The Kaiser Family Foundation reports that the average compound annual growth rate in U.S. health-insurance costs has been 11.6 per cent over the past five years. It is, therefore, not surprising that polling by Kaiser found that 75 per cent of Americans were worried about the amount they would need to pay for health insurance in the future and that 63 per cent were worried about not being able to afford health-care services.

---

The Commonwealth Fund is a private American foundation that aims to promote a high-performing health-care system. In 2005, the fund evaluated access and continuity of care for adults with chronic illness across five countries. Comparing results in Canada and the United States, they found that 97 per cent of Canadians had a primary doctor and that 78 per cent had visited the same doctor for more than five years. In the U.S., only 84 per cent had a doctor and barely 50 per cent had the same one for more than five years. They also found that 26 per cent of Canadians and 51 per cent of Americans reported an unmet health need within the past two years due to cost. Finally, 29 per cent of Canadians, versus 39 per cent of Americans, reported difficulty in achieving access to care at off hours.

[SkyhookJackson]

The problem in healthcare in both of our countries is that technological advances increases rather than reduces costs. As more and more can be done, the treatments, being more sophisticated, cost more and more. Ditto medications.

It's an unlimited demand for a product, that to all Canadians and many Americans, is apparently free or cheap. Someone else is paying the difference. It's that simple.

There are some contrasts between Canada and the U.S.

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/s...exHealth/1/1/9/

Canadians pay about 9 per cent of GDP to insure 100 per cent of citizens; Americans expend more than 14 per cent of GDP to insure 85 per cent of the population. The Kaiser Family Foundation reports that the average compound annual growth rate in U.S. health-insurance costs has been 11.6 per cent over the past five years. It is, therefore, not surprising that polling by Kaiser found that 75 per cent of Americans were worried about the amount they would need to pay for health insurance in the future and that 63 per cent were worried about not being able to afford health-care services.

---

The Commonwealth Fund is a private American foundation that aims to promote a high-performing health-care system. In 2005, the fund evaluated access and continuity of care for adults with chronic illness across five countries. Comparing results in Canada and the United States, they found that 97 per cent of Canadians had a primary doctor and that 78 per cent had visited the same doctor for more than five years. In the U.S., only 84 per cent had a doctor and barely 50 per cent had the same one for more than five years. They also found that 26 per cent of Canadians and 51 per cent of Americans reported an unmet health need within the past two years due to cost. Finally, 29 per cent of Canadians, versus 39 per cent of Americans, reported difficulty in achieving access to care at off hours.

It's interesting to note that Canada ranks 13 and the U.S. is number 45 in life expectancy. Infant mortality rates are higher in the U.S. as well. That's from the Central Intelligence Agency World Facts site. Canada also fares better on the World Health Organization's ranking of health care systems, 30 over the U.S. at 37. You must be doing something right.

[geoffrey]

It's interesting to note that Canada ranks 13 and the U.S. is number 45 in life expectancy. Infant mortality rates are higher in the U.S. as well. That's from the Central Intelligence Agency World Facts site. Canada also fares better on the World Health Organization's ranking of health care systems, 30 over the U.S. at 37. You must be doing something right.

Or terribly wrong. We're one of the richest countries in the world and 30th? That's not acceptable. Canada is an epic failure with health care. But with people like you proposing the false delimma between the Canadian way and the American way, we'll never get anywhere and thousands will countinue to die and suffer needlessly.

[jdobbin]

It's interesting to note that Canada ranks 13 and the U.S. is number 45 in life expectancy. Infant mortality rates are higher in the U.S. as well. That's from the Central Intelligence Agency World Facts site. Canada also fares better on the World Health Organization's ranking of health care systems, 30 over the U.S. at 37. You must be doing something right.

Canada needs to do much more to improve its system. Part of it is restoring money that was cut to eliminate Canada's deficit. The other part is to look to other countries to see what they do to successfully run their universal healthcare.

The United States has some excellent healthcare if you are properly covered. But it costs more than Canada and the outcomes are not as good.

I think change in the U.S. will come at the state level just as healthcare change started in Canada. I don't know what state you are in but hopefully, they are acting on healthcare issues.

[jdobbin]

Or terribly wrong. We're one of the richest countries in the world and 30th? That's not acceptable. Canada is an epic failure with health care. But with people like you proposing the false delimma between the Canadian way and the American way, we'll never get anywhere and thousands will countinue to die and suffer needlessly.

You'll have to show me the citation that thousands die in Canada, Geoffrey. I've never seen that number.

I do know that there is a citation for 18,000 a year who die because they lack healthcare in the U.S.

[bush_cheney2004]

Forget Michael Moore (and the Americans)....our favorite Canadian think tank presents a nice summary of reality, the (wicked and much hated) Fraser Institute reports for 2002 in the wake of massive cuts to health care spending:

This new study compares Canada to other OECD countries that also have universal access, publicly-funded health care systems....

Although Canada spends the most on an age-adjusted basis on health care among OECD nations, our system produces inferior access to physicians and technology, produces longer waiting times, is less successful in preventing deaths from preventable causes, and costs more than any of the other systems that have comparable objectives.

“Put simply, Canada has the most expensive health care system amongst the industrialized nations that have comprehensive, universal access to health care. Unfortunately we have limited results to show for it,” says Michael Walker, executive director of The Fraser Institute and co-author of the study.

“It astounds me that the defenders of the status quo aren’t troubled by the fact that we spend the most and yet receive miserable service,” concludes Walker. “Canadians are being shortchanged.”

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readm...?sNav=nr&id=475

So take away the evil and profit motivated Americans, and we find that the Canadian health care system comes up short. Good thing the evil USA is right next door (cash or credit card accepted!)

[Riverwind]

I see you are misusing stats again:

Although Canada spends the most on an age-adjusted basis on health care among OECD nations

So what is this age adjustment and why is it a reasonable thing to do? The Fraiser Instititute does not say. More importantly, the table itself is titled 'Age-adjusted spending in Universal Access OECD Countries'. This means that the US does not even show up in the table because it does not have universal access. IOW - the claim 'Canada spends the most on an age-adjusted basis on health care among OECD nations' is a complete and total FALSEHOOD.

So take away the evil and profit motivated Americans, and we find that the Canadian health care system comes up short. Good thing the evil USA is right next door (cash or credit card accepted!)

Nothing in the report indicates the US system is better. There is not a Canadian alive who thinks the Canadian system is perfect. The point that many are making in this thread is that the Canadian system is much better that the US system even though it has flaws.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nothing in the report indicates the US system is better. There is not a Canadian alive who thinks the Canadian system is perfect. The point that many are making in this thread is that the Canadian system is much better that the US system even though it has flaws.

The Fraser Institute has formally described what you refuse to believe in my own posts...the USA's health care "system" does not have the same objective, namely, universal access for all citizens. Among those OECD nations that do have such an objective, Canada comes up way short and costs more.

The Canadian system is better for people who need or want a socialized health care system with universal access, but it sucks when compared to other OECD nation's implementations for the same objective.

[Riverwind]

The Fraser Institute has formally described what you refuse to believe in my own posts

The Fraser is a right wing lobby group that tries to disguise itself as a research group. Much of what the Fraser Institute produces is deliberately deceptive and misleading. I have pointed out exactly why the Fraser Institute claims on this point are misleading. Furthermore, I have never said the Canadian system is perfect - I am simply saying it is much better that the mess that Americans are force to suffer with.

The Canadian system is better for people who need or want a socialized health care system, but it sucks when compared to other OECD nations implementations for the same objective.

I suspect most Americans would want universal health care system if they had a chance to learn what it really means. The health care industry in the US has done a good job spreading misinformation and fear among Americans - you are a case in point.