betsy Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 If we eliminate religion from the discussion (which is hard but I'll try not to mention it), here is my take on it: Why do they hate us? Why do they hate freedom? IMO, it all boils down to.....F E A R and E N V Y. Fear? it seems the 'west' is more full of fear. Yes, F E A R! I do not agree that the west - namely the USA - is full of fear at all! If the USA ever decides to take out the problem countries in the Middle East, with the full support of its citizens and its close allies, and with total disregard for any conventions or ethics, you think it could not do so? Never confuse the restraint the USA is showing with fear. The despotic dictators has everything to lose! They only remember too well how Saddam Hussein ended up cowering in a hole in the ground! Envy?well that would have to imply, something to be envious of? what would that be? What would a dictator covet the most? Power! The USA being THE SUPER-POWER! The other western nations having power! The superiority of our society! Just compare the accessible streets alone....my golly! And why their people are trying to leave that god-forsaken countries in exchange for life in the West! Why do you think we've got immigrants, refugees and asylum-seekers from that part of the world? Are you telling me all these people coming and lining up to come to the west do not really care for the lifestyle here? So why are they coming here??? Are you suggesting they all have some ulterior motives in being here, and wanting to come here? You must be suggesting....<gasp>....that they are all in on it....that they're all terrorists! our freedom?well we have less and less of that all the time, spying, wiretapping, no-fly lists, cameras everywhere to take our pictures, in Britian that includes people to shout at you. Pffft! Don't make me laugh! If we have the kind of "freedom" they have in their despotic countries.....your head will be rolling by your children's feet right now, simply for having the nerve to say what you just did. our 'moral superiority'? hilariousour 'christian ways'? more hilarity Laughter is a good way to hide embarrassment....for lack of any sensible response. well I am not getting the envy...................... Well, I am not surprised. Quote
kuzadd Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 [Glad to see you're getting a few yucks. Man, it's kind of simple. They are envious of our wealth and power. why how much wealth and power do you have? Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
betsy Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 OBL , is religious, like donuts are low-cal! Since your statement is contradicting the research article I've posted, can you provide a source in support of your statement? Quote
kuzadd Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 betsy' date='Jun 17 2007, 11:32 AM' post='229820 Yes, F E A R!I do not agree that the west - namely the USA - is full of fear at all! If the USA ever decides to take out the problem countries in the Middle East, with the full support of its citizens, you think it could not do so? Never confuse the restraint the USA is showing with fear. The despotic dictators has everything to lose! They only remember too well how Saddam Hussein ended up cowering in a hole in the ground! I'm speaking of your fear. What would a dictator covet the most?Power! The USA being THE SUPER-POWER! The other western nations having power! The superiority of our society! Just compare the accessible streets alone....my golly! And why their people are trying to leave that god-forsaken countries in exchange for life in the West! Why do you think we've got immigrants, refugees and asylum-seekers from that part of the world? Are you telling me all these people coming and lining up to come to the west do not really care for the lifestyle here? So why are they coming here??? Are you suggesting they all have some ulterior motives in being here, and wanting to come here? You must be suggesting....<gasp>....that they are all in on it....that they're all terrorists! The superiority of our societies? The superpower of the US? You confuse and simplify alot of issues. You also let your imagination run away with you Pffft! Don't make me laugh!If we have the kind of "freedom" they have in their despotic countries.....your head will be rolling by your children's feet right now, simply for having the nerve to say what you just did. baloney. if that was the case, there sure as heck wouldn't be many people in the ME or kids. speaking of despotic countries, how many does the US prop up??? Laughter is a good way to hide embarrassment....for lack of any sensible response. laughter at how self-deluded some of us are. Well, I am not surprised. I am sure you are not. Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
kuzadd Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 OBL , is religious, like donuts are low-cal! Since your statement is contradicting the research article I've posted, can you provide a source in support of your statement? OBL is religious like Donuts are low cal, it's pretty straightforward. He ain't religious. Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
betsy Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 OBL , is religious, like donuts are low-cal! Since your statement is contradicting the research article I've posted, can you provide a source in support of your statement? OBL is religious like Donuts are low cal, it's pretty straightforward. He ain't religious. So where did you get that idea? Quote
betsy Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 betsy' date='Jun 17 2007, 11:32 AM' post='229820 Yes, F E A R! I do not agree that the west - namely the USA - is full of fear at all! If the USA ever decides to take out the problem countries in the Middle East, with the full support of its citizens, you think it could not do so? Never confuse the restraint the USA is showing with fear. The despotic dictators has everything to lose! They only remember too well how Saddam Hussein ended up cowering in a hole in the ground! I'm speaking of your fear. What would a dictator covet the most?Power! The USA being THE SUPER-POWER! The other western nations having power! The superiority of our society! Just compare the accessible streets alone....my golly! And why their people are trying to leave that god-forsaken countries in exchange for life in the West! Why do you think we've got immigrants, refugees and asylum-seekers from that part of the world? Are you telling me all these people coming and lining up to come to the west do not really care for the lifestyle here? So why are they coming here??? Are you suggesting they all have some ulterior motives in being here, and wanting to come here? You must be suggesting....<gasp>....that they are all in on it....that they're all terrorists! The superiority of our societies? The superpower of the US? You confuse and simplify alot of issues. You also let your imagination run away with you Pffft! Don't make me laugh!If we have the kind of "freedom" they have in their despotic countries.....your head will be rolling by your children's feet right now, simply for having the nerve to say what you just did. baloney. if that was the case, there sure as heck wouldn't be many people in the ME or kids. speaking of despotic countries, how many does the US prop up??? Laughter is a good way to hide embarrassment....for lack of any sensible response. laughter at how self-deluded some of us are. Well, I am not surprised. I am sure you are not. Blah-blah-blah! Bwa-ha-ha-ha! In other words, you can't support any of your statements! You can't even indulge in discussing or explaining them! Kindly lift thine eyes to the top of your page and see that topic title? What does it says? EXPLANATIONS NEEDED Oh my Lord, thank you Ghostshack for that! Well Kuzadd, definitely this is one thread where you can't bull your way out of it. You have to abide by the rules. No evasive and very vague responses allowed. And may I add, most especially in your case. He-he-he You gotta explain, babe. Quote
Rue Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 Seriously answer these questions for me. I am surprised this thread has not happend yet.I will ask you one thing. Leave religions out of this debate. Let's get down to the nitty gritty on it. Why do terrorists hate us? Why do they hate freedom? If any of you people can come up with some intelligent arguments as to the why, I would love to hear it. I am pretty damn sick of hearing 'All well they are terrorists, they hate us and freedom'. WHY? NAME YOUR REASONS? EDIT It should read "The 'Why do terrorists hate us'." I will not answer because I think it can not ne answered. Terrorist actions are the result of irrational behaviour. Any explanation given to explain them may be a pretext, excuse, rationalization, justification, etc., but they would only be humans trying to rationalize irrationality, and that is an exercise I won't engage in. To me there can be no reasons why terrorists do what they do, just excuses. To me there is always the choice of engaging in rational dialogue. Quote
Rue Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 "But it still all boils down to that, H A T E. " And with those precise words Besty, I believe you summarized it all. Quote
scribblet Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 "But it still all boils down to that, H A T E. "And with those precise words Besty, I believe you summarized it all. Exactly, I'll just add this: Islam isn't just about going to the mosque and praying 5 times a day, Islam is about their everyday way of life, and the law, you cannot separate the religion from any discussion about muslims and events, religion is part and parcel of the whole package. One of the major differences and problems is the lack of freedom of religious expression (other than Islam) or critical analysis of Islam for fear of your life. The West is for the most part multifaith and multiracial where most people are tolerant of an individual's rights - not so with most Islamic countries. Whether Muslims like it or not what the west sees is mainly a violent intolerant way of life/religion which discriminates against women and homosexuals, often quite violently. Another stumbling block to peace and understanding is their obsession with Israel as most thinking people do not accept suicide bombings as an acceptable political solution and will never accept turning your kids into human bombs killing as many innocent people as possible, as a legitimate means of protest. Maybe there is a need for the West to learn and appreciate Islam but if that is true it is just as true that Muslims need to learn appreciate the West. If accepting Islam and its needs is to be taught in schools then there is the same need for western culture to be taught in the madrasses of the M.E. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
kuzadd Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 Blah-blah-blah! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!In other words, you can't support any of your statements! You can't even indulge in discussing or explaining them! Kindly lift thine eyes to the top of your page and see that topic title? What does it says? EXPLANATIONS NEEDED Oh my Lord, thank you Ghostshack for that! Well Kuzadd, definitely this is one thread where you can't bull your way out of it. You have to abide by the rules. No evasive and very vague responses allowed. And may I add, most especially in your case. He-he-he You gotta explain, babe. actually dear betsy, I answered your questions, look, they are there. You don't like? can't understand? I guess my answers could seem vague in light of your confused statements and somewhat nonsensical aspersions. Clarify? here's my answer to gosthacked question, right off the top "In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable" As for OBL, pure nonsense, that he is religious, he may use religion to manipulate, rather like Pat Robertson of James Dobson, or Tim Lehay. He is a rich Saudi, dear family friends of the Bush's are the BinLaden's a CIA operative who has fought TO THE BENEFIT of the US. In Afghanistan and in Bosnia, for starters. He is not even wanted by the FBI for 9/11. And GWB says he is just not important wrt 9/11 any surprise there? Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
capricorn Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 Our system of government is secular, i.e. separation of church and state and that is how I want to keep it. As individuals, we in Canada are free to practice our religion without fear of persecution. Islam sees no distinction between the church and the state. They operate as one. In the eyes of radical Islam there is but one religion to the exclusion of all others and all other religions must be eradicated by any means. This belief becomes enshrined in Islam's form of government. I want to keep religious education out of our schools. Religion should be taught within the home by parents. That is where freedom of religion is exercised. I am not worried about our youth. They can do a fine job of being accepting of their peers without prodding. By the way, if Muslims are granted prayer rooms in certain schools, then I think Catholics should be granted a chapel for their own religious needs. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
betsy Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 Blah-blah-blah! Bwa-ha-ha-ha! In other words, you can't support any of your statements! You can't even indulge in discussing or explaining them! Kindly lift thine eyes to the top of your page and see that topic title? What does it says? EXPLANATIONS NEEDED Oh my Lord, thank you Ghostshack for that! Well Kuzadd, definitely this is one thread where you can't bull your way out of it. You have to abide by the rules. No evasive and very vague responses allowed. And may I add, most especially in your case. He-he-he You gotta explain, babe. actually dear betsy, I answered your questions, look, they are there. You don't like? can't understand? I guess my answers could seem vague in light of your confused statements and somewhat nonsensical aspersions. Clarify? here's my answer to gosthacked question, right off the top "In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable" As for OBL, pure nonsense, that he is religious, he may use religion to manipulate, rather like Pat Robertson of James Dobson, or Tim Lehay. He is a rich Saudi, dear family friends of the Bush's are the BinLaden's a CIA operative who has fought TO THE BENEFIT of the US. In Afghanistan and in Bosnia, for starters. He is not even wanted by the FBI for 9/11. And GWB says he is just not important wrt 9/11 any surprise there? Sorry. Personal opinions don't count so much in a forum, especially when you're making such a big claim. Sure we can listen to personal opinions....but to be taken seriously, you've got to have something to back it up. So you stated, OBL is not religious. He is only using it to manipulate. Source please. Otherwise it's just pure speculation on your part. I could easily say that he is actually a transvestite doing Madonna impersonations, and Saddam Hussein was the love of his life, that's why he was just so livid with the USA after Bush dethroned Hussein. All of this hatred is actually all about a lover's revenge! But of course, just like you...I've got nothing to back it up. "In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable" Yeah-yeah-yeah....they hate western interference....so does other little struggling countries along the way. What else is new. Odd thing though, it's only these terrorists from Muslim countries and their Muslim sympathisers who seem to have big problems with anger management. To the point of self-igniting and self-combusting! Talk about exploding with anger! Must be in the water they drink. Nice try anyway, Kuzadd! Quote
kuzadd Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 Sorry. Personal opinions don't count so much in a forum, especially when you're making such a big claim.Sure we can listen to personal opinions....but to be taken seriously, you've got to have something to back it up. So you stated, OBL is not religious. He is only using it to manipulate. Source please. Otherwise it's just pure speculation on your part. I could easily say that he is actually a transvestite doing Madonna impersonations, and Saddam Hussein was the love of his life, that's why he was just so livid with the USA after Bush dethroned Hussein. All of this hatred is actually all about a lover's revenge! But of course, just like you...I've got nothing to back it up. "In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable" Yeah-yeah-yeah....they hate western interference....so does other little struggling countries along the way. What else is new. Odd thing though, it's only these terrorists from Muslim countries and their Muslim sympathisers who seem to have big problems with anger management. To the point of self-igniting and self-combusting! Talk about exploding with anger! Must be in the water they drink. Nice try anyway, Kuzadd! actually what is laughable, is you passing off an OPINION piece as fact. So personal opinions only count when you say so? now that is a nice try....anyway. Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
betsy Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 actually what is laughable, is you passing off an OPINION piece as fact.now that is a nice try. But it's just alot of hooey. That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later. Quote
kuzadd Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 actually what is laughable, is you passing off an OPINION piece as fact. now that is a nice try. But it's just alot of hooey. That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later. like your fanatasy betsy? yet, there you keep going. The one where you post opinion pieces, and pass them off as facts, or proof? Please, come back when you have something of substance to prove OBL is religious. That's your contention. oh and I do love the added condenscending tone, it adds to the hilarity of it all, for me. Does it help you feel superior, when you can't actually prove, OBL is a religious man. How could you really though, except through rhetorical nonsense??? I'll let GWB do the talking about OBL, I always love this stuff! http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20020313-8.html Q Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? Also, can you tell the American people if you have any more information, if you know if he is dead or alive? Final part -- deep in your heart, don't you truly believe that until you find out if he is dead or alive, you won't really eliminate the threat of -- THE PRESIDENT: Deep in my heart I know the man is on the run, if he's alive at all. Who knows if he's hiding in some cave or not; we haven't heard from him in a long time. And the idea of focusing on one person is -- really indicates to me people don't understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than one person. And he's just -- he's a person who's now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been destroyed. He's the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match. He is -- as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and he, himself, tries to hide -- if, in fact, he's hiding at all. So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I'm more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did. And there will be other battles in Afghanistan. There's going to be other struggles like Shahikot, and I'm just as confident about the outcome of those future battles as I was about Shahikot, where our soldiers are performing brilliantly. We're tough, we're strong, they're well-equipped. We have a good strategy. We are showing the world we know how to fight a guerrilla war with conventional means. Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive? THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. except here in the speech Bush lies, OBL had taken over NO country, nadda one , zip zero , zilch. Just rhetoric and spin and BS passed off as facts, eh Betsy. Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
scribblet Posted June 17, 2007 Report Posted June 17, 2007 actually what is laughable, is you passing off an OPINION piece as fact. now that is a nice try. But it's just alot of hooey. That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later. Of course OBL is religious, he's a zealot, OBL certainly became deeply involved in religious activities at university and joined the Muslim Brotherhood, including theological debates and Koranic study. He might not have been a religious zealot when he was very young, but he sure is now. also http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStru...65507&typeId=13 says he's a religious fanatic Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
betsy Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 actually what is laughable, is you passing off an OPINION piece as fact. now that is a nice try. But it's just alot of hooey. That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later. Of course OBL is religious, he's a zealot, OBL certainly became deeply involved in religious activities at university and joined the Muslim Brotherhood, including theological debates and Koranic study. He might not have been a religious zealot when he was very young, but he sure is now. also http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStru...65507&typeId=13 says he's a religious fanatic Thank you for that info. This is what we mean by "having something to back up a claim." Quote
betsy Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 Please, come back when you have something of substance to prove OBL is religious.That's your contention. I know I said I wouldn't bother with you until you've got something to back up your claim. On second thought, maybe I should give you a sample what we mean by that. Since you said you didn't get about the "envy" part in a previous post....there's high probability you didn't get this one too. So, sister listen up: This here is another sample how to have something to support your claim. This is especially important when your statement is contradicting someone else's. You need proof or another source claiming the same thing, supporting, or proving what you claim to be true.....just so people don't challenge your position saying you're either lying to your teeth or being ignorant. After all, who wants to seriously argue or indulge in a heavy discussion with a liar...or someone who don't know squat what he/she is talking about. This is a forum after all. A political forum. Pure speculation is not enough. A poster caught lying or unable to support a significant claim, and making irresponsible statements and wilfully twisting facts....usually loses his/her credibility. When this happens, he/she is most likely to be challenged to provide proof for just about anything that she claims...which some other posters are dubious about. AND/OR, anything she says is not taken seriously anymore. Here's another proof of substance to support my claim. Bin Laden was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim. From 1968 to 1976 he attended the relatively secular Al-Thager Model School, called "the school of the élite."[14] In the 1960s, King Faisal had welcomed exiled teachers from Syria, Egypt, and Jordan, so that by the early seventies it was common to find members of the Muslim Brotherhood teaching at Saudi schools and universities. During that time, bin Laden was exposed to the Brotherhood's political teachings during after-school Islamic study groups. At university, bin Laden was influenced by Muhammad Qutb and Abdallah Azzam, professors with strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Qutb, an Egyptian, was the brother and publicizer of the late Sayyid Qutb, author of Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq, or Milestones, one of the most influential tracts on the importance of jihad against all that is un-Islamic in the world.[19][1] Azzam,[19] an Islamic scholar from Palestine, was instrumental in building pan-Islamic enthusiasm for jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan and in drawing Muslims (like bin Laden) from all over the Middle East to fight there.[20] Bin Laden has informal training in Islamic jurisprudence, is considered "well versed in the classical scriptures and traditions of Islam"[21] and has been mentored by scholars such as Musa al-Qarni[22]. Since bin Laden never studied Islam at a seminary (madrasa), he is criticized by Islamic scholars to have no standing to issue religious opinions (fatwa). However, it is possible to obtain scholarly credentials in Islam by learning with individual scholars and obtaining certificates (ijaza) from them.[citation needed] According to Wisal al Turabi, he married the other three because they were "spinsters," who "were going to go without marrying in this world. So he married them for the Word of God."[28][24] According to Abu Jandal, bin Laden's former chief bodyguard, Osama's wife Umm Ali asked Osama for a divorce when they still lived in Sudan, because she said that she "could not continue to live in an austere way and in hardship."[29][24] In 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri, (a leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad), co-signed a fatwa (religious edict) in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, declaring: “ [t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[56][57] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_Bin_Laden Now, it's your turn to provide something that backs up your claim that OBL is not religious. Your contention. That is all that is required. Are you up to that challenge? Can you deliver? Quote
jbg Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 Blah-blah-blah! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!In other words, you can't support any of your statements! You can't even indulge in discussing or explaining them! Seriously, did you expect better from someone who, kneejerk, dislikes positions taken by the West and in particular Jews (I am not calling him a Jew hater). Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 Yeah-yeah-yeah....they hate western interference....so does other little struggling countries along the way. What else is new. Odd thing though, it's only these terrorists from Muslim countries and their Muslim sympathisers who seem to have big problems with anger management. To the point of self-igniting and self-combusting! Talk about exploding with anger! Must be in the water they drink. Nice try anyway, Kuzadd! As Marc Steyn once said, re: the topic title "Religion of Peaces activist", "Take my advice and try not to be standing too near the Hamas activist when he activates himself." (link) Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 Odd thing though, it's only these terrorists from Muslim countries and their Muslim sympathisers who seem to have big problems with anger management. To the point of self-igniting and self-combusting! Talk about exploding with anger! Must be in the water they drink. Nice try anyway, Kuzadd! A bit about Muslim "anger": During the pre-Muslim era, the wanton and vicious habits of the desert people of the area from Egypt through Saudi Arabia is well known, and memorialized in the oral history contained in the Bible. The stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, of the binding of Isaac (by negative implication the ritual child sacrifice among neighboring peoples), the purposeless plugging with sand of water wells dug by Abraham and Isaac are but some examples. The wickedness and idolatry prevalant in these areas, along with sexual perversion and violence, existed well before Islam and the fault for them must be laid at the door, not of Islam, but of local "cultures". Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword. There were, during those early years, some constructive developments. In many areas, intellectually, they were ahead of Europe, then in the "Dark Ages". They were more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. At least "dhimmitude" allowed survival, under conditions of degradation and financial servitude. Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form. Then as now, it took the Americasns to crack down rather than pay tribute. Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC (all of the money benefits the rulers, not the people), the UN, and disaster-milking. Remeber those pitiful faces on ads for charities after the Indonesia tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake? How much rebuilding do you think has really happened? Then as now, there are producers, and there are extorters and takers. After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live. Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations". Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Posted June 18, 2007 Alright so this basic topic of why do 'they hate us' cannot be discussed without religion comming into play. I guess it is hard to get away from it. It's just something that has been bothering me for a couple years. They why of the hate. The fringes of Islamic followers wanting to maintain control over their population through some form of Islamic Law. Wanting to spread that everywhere. In the West there are many religions to speak of, but I will bet you most of them are Christian. A good Catholic population and the Jewish peeps. Now if in the west you replace the democratic governments with the same mentality of those Islamic fundamentalists, you will find that there is that on both sides of the fence. I find it interesting that the western society can have a seperation of church and state and never the two shall meet, but yet that is exactly how it isn't here. There really is no seperation. Islam just does not seem afraid to say it is what it is. Bear with me here. So the west has been messing with the east for centuries for resources and taking atvantage of the people they are doing business with. The east starts to get pissed because they think it is not fair that they are not getting their fair share off the stuff that is on their property. Regardless of what you consider boundries. The west takes, and money flows out of the east. The east gets poorer and poorer. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. If nothing to live for but still have the one thing no one will ever take away from you, is your religion. So much theivery is going on by the west. Wanna know why they still use donkey carts in Baghdad? The hate comes down to this, I am tired of it, and I hate the way I have been treated. Maybe what goes around comes around. Karma is a bitch I hear. The leaders also use this hate now (the east and the west) to control their populations worldview of each other. It is propagandized to making you in the west demonize those in the east. They are just dirty arabs. They are stuck in the dark ages. But there is still a religious element in the west as well as the east taking part in shaping what your worldview should be. So it is impossible to seperate the religion from the hate spewing. So it seems like nothing more than a propaganda tool in order to get at the resources. JBG, thanks for your posts, they have been interesting so far. Osama Bin-Laden is definately a religous man. How else would he have claimed the Fatwa on the West. Quote
betsy Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 So the west has been messing with the east for centuries for resources and taking atvantage of the people they are doing business with. The east starts to get pissed because they think it is not fair that they are not getting their fair share off the stuff that is on their property. Regardless of what you consider boundries. The west takes, and money flows out of the east. The east gets poorer and poorer. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. If nothing to live for but still have the one thing no one will ever take away from you, is your religion. So much theivery is going on by the west. Wanna know why they still use donkey carts in Baghdad? As the article pointed out, there are several reasons for this hatred. That one you've cited is quite convenient (for the terrorists) to justify their actions....after all, they want to gain the sympathy of the world, trying to isolate the west by portraying it as the "imperialist oil-grabbing monster." The terrorists leaders may be loonies....but they are not stupid. The hate comes down to this, I am tired of it, and I hate the way I have been treated. Maybe what goes around comes around. Karma is a bitch I hear. Yes isn't it? That was why those people who suffered under Saddam Hussein ridiculed him and jubilantly celebrated his death. They must be saying, "well see? what goes around comes around." Quote
jbg Posted June 18, 2007 Report Posted June 18, 2007 I find it interesting that the western society can have a seperation of church and state and never the two shall meet, but yet that is exactly how it isn't here. There really is no seperation. Islam just does not seem afraid to say it is what it is. Bear with me here.As I constantly point out, the "separation" of church and state is a not-bad shorthand for the practical effect of the US First Amendment, and similar constructions of the Canadian Charter and other documents. "Mad Michael" said it best, and I cannot improve upon his explanation:Because putting the ten commandments or other religious symbols in pubic buildings or prayer in schools is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment regarding the establishment of religion since public buildings and schools are government institutions. Most importantly though, prayer or the ten commandments are elements of a specific religion. Thus, any application of them by the government is a violation of the 1st Amendment prohibition against establishment.The term of 'God' appearing in the Pledge or on US currency is entirely non-denominational in context - no establishment is established - and thus, the 1st Amendment prohibition is not violated. Thus, one cannot take the "shorthand term" of a "separation" and state that it is an operative fact. It is a summarization. That's all.So the west has been messing with the east for centuries for resources and taking atvantage of the people they are doing business with. The east starts to get pissed because they think it is not fair that they are not getting their fair share off the stuff that is on their property. Regardless of what you consider boundries. The west takes, and money flows out of the east. The east gets poorer and poorer.No, their rulers get the benefit of the extraction income. Their rulers simply choose not to pass it on to their people. The people of Britain, Norway, the province of Alberta and the State of Alaska do not get "poorer and poorer".Desperate times calls for desperate measures. If nothing to live for but still have the one thing no one will ever take away from you, is your religion. So much theivery is going on by the west. Wanna know why they still use donkey carts in Baghdad?The hate comes down to this, I am tired of it, and I hate the way I have been treated. Maybe what goes around comes around. Karma is a bitch I hear. Again, the people should lask their governments.The leaders also use this hate now (the east and the west) to control their populations worldview of each other. It is propagandized to making you in the west demonize those in the east. They are just dirty arabs. They are stuck in the dark ages. But there is still a religious element in the west as well as the east taking part in shaping what your worldview should be.In fact, the foreign policy establishment struggled to prevent such demonization. Planes flying into buildings discredited the so called "Middle East Specialists" of the State Department, whose friendship with assorted Arab potentates and radical leaders did nothing to protect the people of the US from harm.So it is impossible to seperate the religion from the hate spewing. So it seems like nothing more than a propaganda tool in order to get at the resources. You and I obviously part company on this one. Respectfully so. JBG, thanks for your posts, they have been interesting so far.You're welcome. I've been on this Board for almost exactly one year.Osama Bin-Laden is definately a religous man. How else would he have claimed the Fatwa on the West.I do not consider a call to murder the act of a religious man. I call it the act of someone who aspires to the Caliphate. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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