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[geoffrey]

Cotler's wife has been prepared to leave over gay marriage.

She left over Iggy calling Israelis war criminals. Says so right in her letter to the National Post.

He remained a front runner in the campaign regardless of his comments. The Liberal party isn't anti-semetic really, they have some good guys in there somewhere.

They've all been pushed to the back by wild eyed environmental and extremist religion activists though unfortunately.

The end of Paul Martin proved it. He's no longer the type that fits the party. The current party makes Chretien look overwelmingly conservative.

[BC_chick]

Anyways, your friend was just suggesting that Conservatives are mostly racists, and that all racists must be conservatives (ignoring my point that the labour movement was the most racist faction in Canada up until only a few years ago). It's a equal, and equally ridiculous, comparison.

I did no such thing, you all need to stop putting words in my mouth and ask questions if you don't understand what I'm saying.

I never said conservatives are mostly racist. In fact, I believe the majority of conservatives are NOT racist. I simply argued that amongst the racist, the vast majority of them identify with the CPC. Huge difference.

As for the labour union's stance on Chinese workers, you'll have a point when the labour movement belittles the Chinese for their culture and their appearance.

Racism is based on supremacy, bitching about immigrant workers does not begin with the premise of white supremacy.

[geoffrey]

I never said conservatives are mostly racist. In fact, I believe the majority of conservatives are NOT racist. I simply argued that amongst the racist, the vast majority of them identify with the CPC. Huge difference.

I retract my comment. I misread your post and I sincerly apologise.

Do you think Muslims or Sikh's are racist (or religiousist???) for encouraging their followers to marry within their religion? If so, then the Liberals quickly take the lead, do they not? I think that's sort of racism, as much as me saying that no one should get special breaks based on skin colour is deemed to be by many on the left (not necessarily you).

My point is that it's unfair to say there is anything inherently racist about the conservative agenda or conservative about the racist agenda.

Racism is based on supremacy, bitching about immigrant workers does not begin with the premise of white supremacy.

I personally don't know any CPC MP's or supporters that endorse white supremacy. Please let me know so I can send them a 'nice' e-mail.

[jdobbin]

She left over Iggy calling Israelis war criminals. Says so right in her letter to the National Post.

He remained a front runner in the campaign regardless of his comments. The Liberal party isn't anti-semetic really, they have some good guys in there somewhere.

They've all been pushed to the back by wild eyed environmental and extremist religion activists though unfortunately.

The end of Paul Martin proved it. He's no longer the type that fits the party. The current party makes Chretien look overwelmingly conservative.

She had threatened to leave over gay marriage. She was against it. Her husband convinced her to stay despite her conservative leanings. This has been fairly well reported as well.

As far as Dion goes with the Jewish community, he has been well out in front in support.

[ScottSA]

As far as Dion goes with the Jewish community, he has been well out in front in support.

Do tell. Link?

[jdobbin]

Do tell. Link?

I'm glad you asked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRafIJExOQE

[BC_chick]

Do you think Muslims or Sikh's are racist (or religiousist???) for encouraging their followers to marry within their religion? If so, then the Liberals quickly take the lead, do they not? I think that's sort of racism, as much as me saying that no one should get special breaks based on skin colour is deemed to be by many on the left (not necessarily you).

There are several issues that are tied in together which I have argued, none of which state that only whites are racist.

Here they are, point for point:

1) Racism and cultural supremacy exist in all cultures and countries. However, they do the most damage by the ethnic group which has the social power in that country. As such, in Canada, white racism does more damage to other minority groups than vice versa.

2) As a visible minority, I cannot bring myself to vote for a party which has the support of almost every xenophobic white supremacist in the country who either thinks of me as a sub-human or not a "real" Canadian. (maybe I should've used those terms instead of just "racist" as I did in my original post - it could've avoided a lot of grief and misunderstanding later in the thread).

The whole thing started when the question came up of why minorities don't support the CPC. I can't speak for all of us, but for me, it's the fact that I can't be supportive of a group who counts amongst its members, the likes of ScottSA, mikedavid, or Argus.

I'm a social and fiscal liberal, so I vote based on my conscious. But even if I weren't, I'm just pointing out the catch-22 for the people who dislike us minorities for not supporting them, when they themselves are part of the reason us "dirty immigrants" don't want anything to do with them.

[geoffrey]

1) Racism and cultural supremacy exist in all cultures and countries. However, they do the most damage by the ethnic group which has the social power in that country. As such, in Canada, white racism does more damage to other minority groups than vice versa.

2) As a visible minority, I cannot bring myself to vote for a party which has the support of almost every xenophobic white supremacist in the country who either thinks of me as a sub-human or not a "real" Canadian. (maybe I should've used those terms instead of just "racist" as I did in my original post - it could've avoided a lot of grief and misunderstanding later in the thread).

The whole thing started when the question came up of why minorities don't support the CPC. I can't speak for all of us, but for me, it's the fact that I can't be supportive of a group who counts amongst its members, the likes of ScottSA, mikedavid, or Argus.

I'm a social and fiscal liberal, so I vote based on my conscious. But even if I weren't, I'm just pointing out the catch-22 for the people who dislike us minorities for not supporting them, when they themselves are part of the reason us "dirty immigrants" don't want anything to do with them.

I think it's rather unfortunate that you've had such experiences here. Were you born in Canada??

I also think it's rather unfortunate that you believe that your ethnic status would preclude you to success in Canada. My experience is quite to the contrary, and though I'm white and probably am not so qualified to speak on the matter, all of the companies I worked for have had a reasonable ethnic mix up until at least the director level. If people of various ethnic descents grow up believing they are limited, then it's a huge failure of everything we should be striving towards. The belief that your limited is enough to do just that.

I find it very disappointing to hear that people in Canada believe they are limited by racial factors. Very disappointing that we'll miss all that potential.

Are most of the executives in Canada white? Absolutely, I won't deny that. But it's beginning to change. It takes time for people to build up the experience, confidence and network to become an executive. Women are just starting to really excel at doing so. It may take as long for ethnic minorities as well. Looking around meetings at the Petroleum Club or other 'old boys club' places, it's changing! All very encouraging!

My field has been especially good at reaching out to ethnic minorities. I actually feel most days that I'm in a minority being a white male accountant, it might actually be true. I know I'm a minority in the finance department where I work now. I've gone through 3 different director-level reports and they were all women, 1 was a minority woman.

I can promise you that most people in business (there are a few, no doubt, that disagree) pretty much disregard race and nationality when hiring, especially in the current job market. If I'm hiring someone, I want whoever is going to provide the most value to the company... which is definitely not always the white guy.

Affirmative action and things like that have created some of the problems. We've all seen a completely unqualified person be brought into an otherwise all white group... it's questionable. And it's unfortunate because it degrades the person who would have much rather got the job on merit, and it degrades all of the other minorities who are now viewed suspiciously. Some bigger reasons are obviously behind this.

Could we also look at a ethnic minorities, which in Canada tend to stick together, looking at the 'white power' with a racist view? I'm sure it happens. You've illustrated it yourself, speaking of one ethnicity being in power (not that it's a problem in this case). But this racism, or distrust if you will, don't you think that's also hampering the ability of immigrants and other ethnic minorities to succeed.

I'll leave with this observation. I find that ethnic minorities that come from countries with a similar way of life as ours find much more rapid success. India (at least at the level of income that allows them to leave), Britain, France... ethnic minorities coming from these places seem to have little barrier to success in Canada. It's when you get into some of the African countries, southeast Asia (excluding the Tigers) and importantly China that it seems we have some trouble adapting, at least at the first generation.

The huge amount of Chinese ethnicity people in university goes to show that it's changing though. Most of my business classes were vastly Chinese.

[scribblet]

There are several issues that are tied in together which I have argued, none of which state that only whites are racist.

Here they are, point for point:

1) Racism and cultural supremacy exist in all cultures and countries. However, they do the most damage by the ethnic group which has the social power in that country. As such, in Canada, white racism does more damage to other minority groups than vice versa.

2) As a visible minority, I cannot bring myself to vote for a party which has the support of almost every xenophobic white supremacist in the country who either thinks of me as a sub-human or not a "real" Canadian. (maybe I should've used those terms instead of just "racist" as I did in my original post - it could've avoided a lot of grief and misunderstanding later in the thread).

First off, the CPC and prior to that Alliance, had the most minorities in their party. If minorities don't support the CPC it is mainly due to the image cultivated by the Liberals that they, and only they support immigrants.

As for #2, that's about the most ridiculous statement I've read on here, it smears and stereotypes a party with no substantiation.

I personally wouldn't vote for a party where blocks of Liberal delegates voted along ethnic lines influencing the outcome of their leadership race. Not to ment Stéphane Dion's decision to nix the expiring provisions of the Anti-Terrorism Act as part of a quid pro quo with Muslim and Sikh delegates who'd originally backed Gerard Kennedy. Naturally they are denying it, but its the Liberals who for years have used the race card to attract ethnic voters and used ethno-politics to win.

[Argus]

Cotler's wife sure believed it when she left the party.

Cotler's wife had been prepared to leave over gay marriage.

Cotler's wife wasn't the only one who left. Are you going to deny there is and was a lot of concern among long-time Liberal party members about the rising tone of antisemetism within the Liberal party?

or are you one of those Liberals who isn't bothered by that?

[Argus]

She left over Iggy calling Israelis war criminals. Says so right in her letter to the National Post.

He remained a front runner in the campaign regardless of his comments. The Liberal party isn't anti-semetic really, they have some good guys in there somewhere.

They've all been pushed to the back by wild eyed environmental and extremist religion activists though unfortunately.

The end of Paul Martin proved it. He's no longer the type that fits the party. The current party makes Chretien look overwelmingly conservative.

She had threatened to leave over gay marriage. She was against it. Her husband convinced her to stay despite her conservative leanings. This has been fairly well reported as well.

As far as Dion goes with the Jewish community, he has been well out in front in support.

You mean like Stephan Dion was such a big supporter - out front - of Kyoto that he named his dog Kyoto - but out back - where there were no cameras, he was opposing Kyoto?

[Michael Bluth]

2) As a visible minority, I cannot bring myself to vote for a party which has the support of almost every xenophobic white supremacist in the country who either thinks of me as a sub-human or not a "real" Canadian.

I can't be a "real" racist because I'm not white.

[Argus]

1) Racism and cultural supremacy exist in all cultures and countries. However, they do the most damage by the ethnic group which has the social power in that country. As such, in Canada, white racism does more damage to other minority groups than vice versa.

Even if one accepts this what difference does it make? How is an Asian racist or a Black racist any less morally challenged, any less guilty than a White racist? You' despise White racists but you're not too upset with minority racists because - - - they can't hurt you? Or do you accept racism among your own kind because - well - you feel the same way?

2) As a visible minority, I cannot bring myself to vote for a party which has the support of almost every xenophobic white supremacist in the country who either thinks of me as a sub-human or not a "real" Canadian.

And you know this because of the extensive polling done on xenophobic racists, right?

The whole thing started when the question came up of why minorities don't support the CPC. I can't speak for all of us, but for me, it's the fact that I can't be supportive of a group who counts amongst its members, the likes of ScottSA, mikedavid, or Argus.

But even if you accept we're bigots you're easily as much a bigot as we are, probably more. You despise more people than we do, you apparently are more emotional about it - which leads to violence a lot more. I would find it more likely you would support acts of violence committed against those you perceive as "the enemy" than those of us you are labeling. Nor have you produced the slightest shred of evidence that I or anyone else is a racist. But then, you appear to be the type of individual who really doesn't require much evidence before making broad, sweeping decisions.

I'm a social and fiscal liberal, so I vote based on my conscious.

How is this any different than my saying that while intelligent people vote based on logic and fact, others voted based on emotionalism? You're simply confessing that all your positions are based on emotions, not facts or thought.

[runningdog]

Not every conservative is a racist, but every racist is a conservative.

Stating "every racist is a conservative" an excellent example of bigotry. Agree?

no, as people like argus have proven her correct.

[Michael Bluth]

no, as people like argus have proven her correct.

No it hasn't.

Are you trying to call Argus a racist?

Do explain where that accusation comes from.

[Argus]

no, as people like argus have proven her correct.

No it hasn't.

Are you trying to call Argus a racist?

Do explain where that accusation comes from.

BC Chick implied she wasn't a bigot, only prejudiced, which means she posts "without knowledge, thought or reason". I would suggest this individual has a similar posting style.

[runningdog]

argus "proves" that it isn't just the Left that have "far out there wackos" Way to go Mike. Way to support an extremist. Just what this board needs. 96% of what argus has written has been mean, hurtful, angry statements. Surely you understand the harm that this does to YOUR point of view??

[Michael Bluth]

argus "proves" that it isn't just the Left that have "far out there wackos" Way to go Mike. Way to support an extremist. Just what this board needs. 96% of what argus has written has been mean, hurtful, angry statements. Surely you understand the harm that this does to YOUR point of view??

Whassup dawg?! I think you are mistaking me for Mad Michael who takes offence at Mike.

Here something Argus said which I found very insightful.

Even if one accepts this what difference does it make? How is an Asian racist or a Black racist any less morally challenged, any less guilty than a White racist? You' despise White racists but you're not too upset with minority racists because - - - they can't hurt you? Or do you accept racism among your own kind because - well - you feel the same way?

That truly did appear to be the argument BC_Chick was making.

You might be right about it being in that small four percent of his posts, but I don't think so. Not to my recollection at least.

[Argus]

argus "proves" that it isn't just the Left that have "far out there wackos" Way to go Mike. Way to support an extremist. Just what this board needs. 96% of what argus has written has been mean, hurtful, angry statements. Surely you understand the harm that this does to YOUR point of view??

In what way am I an extremist on any subject? You've actually done a study in order to conclude what the contents are of "96% of what I post?

Hurtful? Who is hurt? Whiny, thoughtless, emotionally insecure ideologues who post without thought, and whose idea of research is to check an internet site of like-minded twits?

Well... good.

[Who's Doing What?]

In what way am I an extremist on any subject? You've actually done a study in order to conclude what the contents are of "96% of what I post?

Hurtful? Who is hurt? Whiny, thoughtless, emotionally insecure ideologues who post without thought, and whose idea of research is to check an internet site of like-minded twits?

Well... good.

Do you need a hug??

[ScottSA]

In what way am I an extremist on any subject? You've actually done a study in order to conclude what the contents are of "96% of what I post?

Hurtful? Who is hurt? Whiny, thoughtless, emotionally insecure ideologues who post without thought, and whose idea of research is to check an internet site of like-minded twits?

Well... good.

Do you need a hug??

Runningdog seems more in need of a hug. Anyone who uses the term "hurtful" and "angry" to describe other points of view is either a propagandist or has an extremely tenuous hold on their emotions...

[BC_chick]

I can't be a "real" racist because I'm not white.

God no, read point number 1 of my post again.

[BC_chick]

First off, the CPC and prior to that Alliance, had the most minorities in their party. If minorities don't support the CPC it is mainly due to the image cultivated by the Liberals that they, and only they support immigrants.

Alliance/CPC are no more. You can't cling to old ideas to prove the absence of something in new ones.

As for #2, that's about the most ridiculous statement I've read on here, it smears and stereotypes a party with no substantiation.

If you don't like it, speak out against it instead of justifying or excusing it. Harper is making that effort and I commend him for it. His supporters would benefit by breaking that stereotype as well and speaking out against their fellow conservatives when they say racist (pardon me, xenophobic and/or white supremacist) things.

[BC_chick]

I think it's rather unfortunate that you've had such experiences here. Were you born in Canada??

I grew up here in Vancouver and I identify Canadian. English is my strongest language, I don't cling to my ethnicity and I don't hang out in my ethnic community. Because of all that, I actually haven't directly had too much bad experiences like some of the things that I have heard about.

What freaks me out is the types of things I have been exposed to since the advent of the internet and the kinds of things people say when they're anonymous. It gives me a whole new perspective because I know that these are the types of everyday people with whom I work, with whom I interact in everyday life - they probably smile in my face, yet when they're anonymous, they say the kind of things that they do.

My field has been especially good at reaching out to ethnic minorities. I actually feel most days that I'm in a minority being a white male accountant, it might actually be true. I know I'm a minority in the finance department where I work now. I've gone through 3 different director-level reports and they were all women, 1 was a minority woman.

I know that you work with a number of qualified immigrants, no doubt. But let me tell you a story which might open your eyes to the realities of what we don't see in the workplace. I was working in a company years ago and they were hiring for a new position. A couple of people I knew (and hung out with after work) were sifting through the resumes and they were throwing out every resume with an Asian, South-East Asian or Midle-Eastern name. I was shocked, I asked how on earth I was ever hired. They laughed and said a different person in the company hired me and they implied that I was hired based on my looks. Sure, I'm not saying it's impossible for us to get jobs, but how many times out there is our resume thrown out and we don't know about it? In hindsight, I've often wished I reported that firm.

[BC_chick]

That truly did appear to be the argument BC_Chick was making.

Again, read point number 1 of my post. I'm tired to repeating myself.