Cult Leader Sparks 'Sikh' Riots

[betsy]

Sindu, please leave racism out of this, there is nothing racist about asking for people to abide by Canadian law while in Canada. No, I'm not white, and yes, I would say the same thing about anyone of my own ethnicity who puts former traditions above the law of our new country.

I definitely agree with you, myself being from an ethnic community too.

Besides, obviously there is a reason why we've decided to leave our mother country to come and live in Canada. For me, it's the western way of life. For others, it's corruptions, war, poverty, oppression, etc.,

We should protect to maintain Canada the way it is, what attracted us to it in the first place. We should not try to "import" and impose the old ways from the old country if it goes against Canadian law. We only end up bringing here the disease that we ran away from.

Anyway, Sindu....what about the Inidan women who were on tv just a few months ago? They spoke of a horrific treatment of women (included burning and stabbing) with the silent approval of your own community, a cultural practice they say, that had been brought here to Canada!

Why should we put up with that?

[betsy]

The turban in the RCMP is here to stay. It is not about changing anyone's uniform. It was all about being inclusive and letting others practice their religious beliefs fully.

Which is too bad. Maybe it's my age, but I do long for tradition now....the same tradition I made fun of in my youth. I want to see a parade of RCMP in full traditional regalia. The way I saw them in postcards and movies.

If Whites can to keep their culture and didn't have to change to fit into the culture of the Natives then why can't the Sikhs keep their culture, religion and traditions?

Why can we keep our culture and identities....and have the "whites" lose theirs? If we want to have ours....then we should go back where we can have it in full.

It is in the law of this land that this country is officially bilingual and officially multi-cultural. That Charter of Rights and freedoms further protects those rights.

That's why multiculturalism is poison. It's slowly destroying this country from within.

Last but not least, if anyone doesn't believe that racism isn't here and isn't real well look up the 'Kamagata Maru' incident. Canada's immigration laws at that time were denying entry to people into Canada solely based on skin colour. The law was that only whites could come in. Also, if you get the chance talk to famous environmentalist David Sazuki and ask him how he felt when during WW2 him and his family (he was a child) were stripped of their property and jailed for being of japanese descent. Sikhs have been in Canada over 100+ years but have had the right to vote only about 40 years or so.

You should go to other asian countries and learn their language. You'd be blown away how much racism there is in this world. In my mother country, we've got colorful jokes about turbans and Indians, we've got some for Chinese and Japs, for blacks and native tribes....and we've got tons about whites.

Racism is everywhere. I'm sure it also abounds in your mother country.

Are we talking of present day or the past? If you hadn't noticed....things had drastically change now!

Let's not try to use the "guilt-card" here.....and get all the apologists wringing their hands and beating their chests again and have us drowning in their tears.

If you're talking of atrocities....I've got tons of horror stories perpetrated by the Japs when they invaded my mother country. I acknowledge that the Canadian-Japanese were treated poorly for having lost their lands....but my mother-in-law, being German that she is was also "jailed" in England (which she understands is also for their own safety). War is war!

[M.Dancer]

The turban in the RCMP is here to stay. It is not about changing anyone's uniform. It was all about being inclusive and letting others practice their religious beliefs fully. If Whites can to keep their culture and didn't have to change to fit into the culture of the Natives then why can't the Sikhs keep their culture, religion and traditions? It is in the law of this land that this country is officially bilingual and officially multi-cultural. That Charter of Rights and freedoms further protects those rights.

You have your kirpan, I have my skein dhu.....

I get a kick out of people who get their panties soiled over the turban issue.....they generally don't have much knowledge of history or tradition......

The Stetson wasn't even an official part of the uniform till 1904. Before that they wore Pith Helmets or pillbox caps or went for mufti headress.

Now of course the stetson is as canadian as pineapple pie.........where as the Turban has been worn by several winners of the Victoria Cross, British Officers and quite a few loyal Canadians serving in the RCMP.

[White Doors]

Damn straight they were wrong. And so was special permission to let Sikhs (or anyone) not wear the proper police uniforms.

Neither religious nor ethnic traditions should be permitted to override the essential rules that the rest of us live by.

Agreed 100%!

for different reasons I suspsect, but agreed nonetheless.

[Figleaf]

The original post has a link and that link (if you bothered to read it) is about a cult leader who himself `Gurmit Ram Rahim Insaan` (Ram =Hindu,Rahim=Muslim,Insaan=human) who 'imitated' and 'mocked' the Gurus (like prophets) of Sikhism. That's like somoene claiming to be Muhhamed, Jesus, Buddha, etc. That is what provoked the violence in the Punjab region of India where Sikhs are from.

It's regretable that Sikhs have allowed themselves to be provoked by a mere pretender (who probably sees himself as quite the innocent victim too).

The highest spirtual and temporal authority on Sikhism, the 'Akal Takht' issued a religious edict ordering the destruction of all the places where this `insaan` guy has followers and for him to be summoned before them to explain himself by May 27, 2007.

Do religious figures in India have the authority to order destruction of property and issue summonses?

I sure hope not.

Kirpans are much smaller and have a cover. They are not 'daggers' as many have incorrectly said so.

Why are they not 'daggers'?

Its purpose is to be used as a last resort anytime the person carrying it sees a wrong being committed or is attacked then the are justified to use it in self-defense as a last resort when all other peaceful means have failed.

So, as noted already, it is intended as a weapon. It's pretty much the same reason anyone would carry a dagger, only for Sikhs it's a religious requirement to have that capability.

The turban in the RCMP is here to stay. It is not about changing anyone's uniform. It was all about being inclusive and letting others practice their religious beliefs fully.

The effect was that a speical rule was created that, on the basis of religion, lets a person do something others are not allowed to do.

[cybercoma]

Sindhu, without being racist, I'm simply questioning religions and whether they truly guide morality and have the interests of people at their core.

These Sikhs went on a violent rampage because of how this guy dressed. They felt he looked too much like a mythical character that Sikhs are taught to be real. Embracing mythology and superstition (and I will continue to call it that until someone shows any tiny piece of evidence towards deities being real) is one thing, but when lives are being taken and people are being abused here because of that, it's quite another thing.

Regardless of how often this has occurred (you say it has been more than 20 years), it is horrifying to me that people will get so angry about the way a person dresses (or a cartoon that someone draws) that they would actually go out and murder or injure fellow human beings; all of this going back to that mythological belief. Steven Weinberg was right when he said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

What do Sikhs honestly believe will happen if their children leave the knives at home, instead of taking them to school? And can they prove with any sort of rationality that this is even remotely near reality.

[Remiel]

Do you not find it equally disturbing that someone would deliberately provoke people into acts of rashness for no reason than their own hubris?

Why is it though that no one objects to schools for martial arts? Are martial arts not the ultimate concealed weapon? The one that exists only in the mind.

[guyser]

The turban in the RCMP is here to stay. It is not about changing anyone's uniform. It was all about being inclusive and letting others practice their religious beliefs fully.

Which is too bad. Maybe it's my age, but I do long for tradition now....the same tradition I made fun of in my youth. I want to see a parade of RCMP in full traditional regalia. The way I saw them in postcards and movies.

And you get your "parade of RCMP in full traditional regalia" anytime you want to go and see it. That hasn't changed.

The old postcards dont show anything but white men in full dress, but that wasnt entirely true was it. The RCMP used to be called the NWMP, so why not vent about going back to the original roots. Because it wont fit your post about tradition I guess.

I have seen the RCM Policeman wearing a Turban and it looks very good.Very smart looking and no one can say it takes anything away from the old school RCMP.

Times change, this country is changing, we need to be inclusive of the good, and resist the bad.

Besides, this Turban change was done a long time ago. Arent you used to it yet?

Let me guess, the Charter is to blame.

[cybercoma]

Do you not find it equally disturbing that someone would deliberately provoke people into acts of rashness for no reason than their own hubris?

Provocation is bull. People should have enough control over themselves and their anger that they don't go stabbing other living breathing human beings because someone else dressed up like their invisible friend.

Those that took violent actions should bear the responsibility for their actions.

[betsy]

The turban in the RCMP is here to stay. It is not about changing anyone's uniform. It was all about being inclusive and letting others practice their religious beliefs fully. If Whites can to keep their culture and didn't have to change to fit into the culture of the Natives then why can't the Sikhs keep their culture, religion and traditions? It is in the law of this land that this country is officially bilingual and officially multi-cultural. That Charter of Rights and freedoms further protects those rights.

You have your kirpan, I have my skein dhu.....

I get a kick out of people who get their panties soiled over the turban issue.....they generally don't have much knowledge of history or tradition......

The Stetson wasn't even an official part of the uniform till 1904. Before that they wore Pith Helmets or pillbox caps or went for mufti headress.

Now of course the stetson is as canadian as pineapple pie.........where as the Turban has been worn by several winners of the Victoria Cross, British Officers and quite a few loyal Canadians serving in the RCMP.

Well at least I've learned from you.

All I could remember were those postcards and old movies that showed RCMP marching.

And I've asked my husband about your post. And he said that it's true. That the British Empire used to have men in turbans. So I guess, they're part of tradition.

Anyway going back to Sindhu's comment about turbans and the RCMP. I must say there is safety concerns about kirpans in schools....and obviously, safety is not an issue on turbans in the RCMP.

[Remiel]

Provocation is bull. People should have enough control over themselves and their anger that they don't go stabbing other living breathing human beings because someone else dressed up like their invisible friend.

Those that took violent actions should bear the responsibility for their actions.

Dressed up like their invisible friend? The Gurus were real people, who were around a mere 400 years ago or so. That would be like me saying that philosophers should stop listening to their " invisible friend " Immanuel Kant, also long dead.

[cybercoma]

Of course, philosophers wouldn't go around stabbing people for dressing up like Kant, nor do they believe in being able to communicate with him beyond the grave.

The point is that the Sikhs' reaction was completely irrational, which is unsurprising since it was based on the irrational belief that some dead dude communicated directly with some form of a deity. Although the gurus themselves are not THE invisible friend, they are invisible friends in the form of what Catholics would call Saints.

Either way, there is no sign of there being any probability of truth to these ideas and meanwhile back on earth, real people are really being killed and injured because of these fictitious beliefs.

[Remiel]

How do you know that your belief in your own existence is not fictious? Based on empirical evidence alone, it can be surmised that you do not exist, because you are merely a collection of sub-atomic pieces. Yet for some reason, you irrationally adhere to what you perceive as your existence. Thus, you feel the need to tell others that they have no business believing in what they do, based on the fictious belief that you actually exist.

[cybercoma]

I am not about to get into a philosophical debate with you about nihilism.

[Shakeyhands]

...and no ones been knifed with one yet.

All it will take is once, to prove your position wrong.

then we should ban all guns too. A lot more people have been hurt by them.

[betsy]

...and no ones been knifed with one yet.

All it will take is once, to prove your position wrong.

then we should ban all guns too. A lot more people have been hurt by them.

As far as I know, guns are not allowed in school. And that's what this is all about.....weapons in schools.

A lot of people had been stabbed. A lot of people had even hurt themselves in their kitchen.

Are you suggesting we should ban ALL KNIVES too?

[Remiel]

I am not about to get into a philosophical debate with you about nihilism.

Why? Because it would put the lie to what you claim are your beliefs? Admit it, you have faith in your own existence, even in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary you will continue to have that. How can you not? You are only human.