Conservative green plan a Liberal clone says professor

[Argus]

What is the Liberal Plan to reduce Greenhouse Gas Emissions?

What is the Liberal Plan on National Daycare?

What is the Liberal Plan to solve our deteriorating health care system?

Do the Conservatives have plans? At the moment all they do is stall and hope for an end to this Parliamentary session.

You didn't answer the question. The Conservatives' plan is the bill they are trying to get through parliament. We know what their plans are to date. What is the Liberals' plan on anything? All we get is hot air and mouth noises. No specifics on anything.

And that appears to be fine with you.

[Argus]

In 2005 the Libs were running the government, and thus would "face the music" on any damage done to the economy. The reason they're trying to foist a beefed up plan now is twofold:

1. To make the CPC look anti-environment; and
   
2. To creat a plan which would damage the economy, so that the voters would take it out on the CPC.
   

The public pressure to meet Kyoto would be the same whether the Liberals or Conservatives were in place.

Really? How come there was NO pressure prior to the election? Kyoto wasn't even on the radar and was never mentioned during the election.

So where did the pressure come from? And when? I can remember. It came from Stephane Dion. It came during his run for the Liberal leadership, with his portraying himself as the "Green" champion, and it came after he became leader with the Liberals getting their pet journalists to start printing and airing more and more stories about the "terrible danger" of greenhouse gas emissions, and how only Stephane Dion, the "green man" can save us from that evil Harper guy who hates the environment.

Stephane Dion - the man who fought against Kyoto when the cameras were turned away, but named his dog Kyoto and calls himself the green champion.

[jdobbin]

You didn't answer the question. The Conservatives' plan is the bill they are trying to get through parliament. We know what their plans are to date. What is the Liberals' plan on anything? All we get is hot air and mouth noises. No specifics on anything.

And that appears to be fine with you.

Actually, you have the Clean Air Act in its amended form. That is the Liberal policy there. What's wrong with that one?

The only angry foaming at the mouth we have seen is from some posters here opposed to those amendments.

[Argus]

The new version of the Clean Air Act brought the three opposition parties together and came up with a plan they all agreed on.

With no costs involved, no idea what the damage to the economy would be, and no actual intention to implement it, just a determination to portray themselves as more "green" than the Tories.

If the "plan" they put together had actually been the substance of the bill the Tories had proposed, the Opposition would have reacted in exactly the same fashion: screaming about how it was too little, too late, did nothing, was a big phoney con job, and wouldn't sufficiently slow greenhouse gases. Then they'd have put together an even more extreme proposal.

[jdobbin]

Really? How come there was NO pressure prior to the election? Kyoto wasn't even on the radar and was never mentioned during the election.

So where did the pressure come from? And when? I can remember. It came from Stephane Dion. It came during his run for the Liberal leadership, with his portraying himself as the "Green" champion, and it came after he became leader with the Liberals getting their pet journalists to start printing and airing more and more stories about the "terrible danger" of greenhouse gas emissions, and how only Stephane Dion, the "green man" can save us from that evil Harper guy who hates the environment.

Stephane Dion - the man who fought against Kyoto when the cameras were turned away, but named his dog Kyoto and calls himself the green champion.

Stephane Dion didn't manufacture the support for Kyoto in Canada. Public pressure to make a real difference was happening even before Dion made his leadership bid.

Harper created this problem of perception all by himself. He said he would destroy Kyoto, doubted the science and thought any changes to the environmental laws were something that would destroy the economy.

Harper handled Dion easily in Parliament. It was like watching a man brush off the advances of an eager puppy.

Support for Kyoto has not translated into huge support for Dion. No, what we see is support for Kyoto runs high even among Conservatives.

Harper was on the wrong side of the issue and has had to play catch up.

[jdobbin]

Then they'd have put together an even more extreme proposal.

It isn't and they haven't.

[Argus]

So where did the pressure come from? And when? I can remember. It came from Stephane Dion. It came during his run for the Liberal leadership, with his portraying himself as the "Green" champion, and it came after he became leader with the Liberals getting their pet journalists to start printing and airing more and more stories about the "terrible danger" of greenhouse gas emissions, and how only Stephane Dion, the "green man" can save us from that evil Harper guy who hates the environment.

Stephane Dion - the man who fought against Kyoto when the cameras were turned away, but named his dog Kyoto and calls himself the green champion.

Stephane Dion didn't manufacture the support for Kyoto in Canada. Public pressure to make a real difference was happening even before Dion made his leadership bid.

Really? Why wasn't it even an issue during the election then? And as for "making a real difference" anyone who actually knows anything about Kyoto knows it would not make any real difference. Well, except that it would cost us billions of dollars for nothing.

[jdobbin]

Really? Why wasn't it even an issue during the election then? And as for "making a real difference" anyone who actually knows anything about Kyoto knows it would not make any real difference. Well, except that it would cost us billions of dollars for nothing.

The main issue in the election was getting rid of the Liberals. It doesn't mean that the environment didn't rate high as a concern.

As far as your claim that it won't make a difference, not even Harper is making that argument now.

[speaker]

That's the truth, gad,, even bush isn't fighting it in public anymore.

I seem to remember Kyoto as being a fairly good chunk of the debate before and through the last election. Dion had had the chance to do something, but didn't. Instead he complained that it is harder than it looks, and more complex. How does he expect people to believe he can do it now let alone run a country.

[Argus]

Really? Why wasn't it even an issue during the election then? And as for "making a real difference" anyone who actually knows anything about Kyoto knows it would not make any real difference. Well, except that it would cost us billions of dollars for nothing.

The main issue in the election was getting rid of the Liberals. It doesn't mean that the environment didn't rate high as a concern.

As far as your claim that it won't make a difference, not even Harper is making that argument now.

Not publicly. But anyone who actually knows anything about Kyoto will not disagree. Even if one takes as proven (it isn't) that man-made emissions are entirely responsible for rising temperatures (which have been falling since 1998 btw) the Kyoto treaty would not do much to slow that rise, especially since the exploding economies of India and China add more emissions in a year than other countries could cut back in 50 years.

[jdobbin]

Not publicly. But anyone who actually knows anything about Kyoto will not disagree. Even if one takes as proven (it isn't) that man-made emissions are entirely responsible for rising temperatures (which have been falling since 1998 btw) the Kyoto treaty would not do much to slow that rise, especially since the exploding economies of India and China add more emissions in a year than other countries could cut back in 50 years.

You see this commentary makes people think that Harper is either: selling out to environmentalists to win an election or harbouring a secret agenda to win an election.

In each case, it contributes to people not trusting or believing in the man.

[jbg]

You see this commentary makes people think that Harper is either: selling out to environmentalists to win an election or harbouring a secret agenda to win an election.

Is his or any politician's desire to win an election a secret?

[jdobbin]

Is his or any politician's desire to win an election a secret?

Desire and agenda are two different things.

[Michael Bluth]

Desire and agenda are two different things.

That's the beauty of charges of a secret agenda. By definition it can't be proven.

[jbg]

Desire and agenda are two different things.

That's the beauty of charges of a secret agenda. By definition it can't be proven.

In Canada, a proof is a proof.

[jdobbin]

In Canada, a proof is a proof.

And in the U.S. you know what you know when you know it and when you know it, it is known. A great Defense Secretary once said that. Probably the best one the U.S. ever had, will ever have and possibly the best the universe has ever known.

[Michael Bluth]

Still no proof of the secret agenda then?

What does Donny Rummy have to do with any of this?

[gc1765]

And in the U.S. you know what you know when you know it and when you know it, it is known. A great Defense Secretary once said that. Probably the best one the U.S. ever had, will ever have and possibly the best the universe has ever known.

[Argus]

Not publicly. But anyone who actually knows anything about Kyoto will not disagree. Even if one takes as proven (it isn't) that man-made emissions are entirely responsible for rising temperatures (which have been falling since 1998 btw) the Kyoto treaty would not do much to slow that rise, especially since the exploding economies of India and China add more emissions in a year than other countries could cut back in 50 years.

You see this commentary makes people think that Harper is either: selling out to environmentalists to win an election or harbouring a secret agenda to win an election.

In each case, it contributes to people not trusting or believing in the man.

And you think people trust and believe Dion? Or Layton? I think Harper is swaying to the political winds in a close political situation, and to a hostile and nearly hysterical media - most of whom know virtually nothing about climate change). But I'll give him this, instead of throwing all that money down the toilet for emission reductions he's putting it into reducing air pollution too. I can support that.

As far as "secret agendas" go, that would apparently be the pricing and regulatory framework behind the Liberal Party's efforts to reduce greenhouse gases - presuming they even exist. Because if the Liberals actually HAVE a plan to reduce greenhouse gases they're keeping it a secret for only one reason: the cost will pop a lot of eyeballs and cost them a lot of votes. So either they're lying about that, or they're lying about even caring about greenhouse gas reduction. Either way they're liars and frauds. Certainly Dion is.

[jdobbin]

And you think people trust and believe Dion? Or Layton? I think Harper is swaying to the political winds in a close political situation, and to a hostile and nearly hysterical media - most of whom know virtually nothing about climate change). But I'll give him this, instead of throwing all that money down the toilet for emission reductions he's putting it into reducing air pollution too. I can support that.

As far as "secret agendas" go, that would apparently be the pricing and regulatory framework behind the Liberal Party's efforts to reduce greenhouse gases - presuming they even exist. Because if the Liberals actually HAVE a plan to reduce greenhouse gases they're keeping it a secret for only one reason: the cost will pop a lot of eyeballs and cost them a lot of votes. So either they're lying about that, or they're lying about even caring about greenhouse gas reduction. Either way they're liars and frauds. Certainly Dion is.

I had no problem with a strategy of clean water and air. The problem is that Harper presented was not a emission reduction program.

As fas liars and frauds go, I think this is what nixed the Conservatives initial program and what is about to take down their program this time as well.

If Harper is going to sway to political winds, he might as well accept the amended act and move on.