U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient

[bush_cheney2004]

What is "high risk" exactly?

The little girl with MS... she should be uninsurable and left to die because she was born "high risk"?

The roofer who falls off a ladder and breaks his back... he should be uninsured because he is "high risk"?

The only people covered by medical in b-c's world are wrapped in bubble wrap and imperfect babies are killed at birth. Lovely world. Good thing it's only in your mind.

Little girl or BIG girl....same difference....see Medicaid

Clumsy Roofer? See "bonded and insured".

Imperfect babies....far fewer than the millions of perfectly good ones aborted by you oh so caring individuals pining for a compassionate society.

[Guest American Woman]

As for tax deductions, that has nothing to do with the cost per capita of health care.

No it doesn't, but it is figured into a person's strategy to pay for health care procedures. I'm sure you are aware of health care reimbursement accounts, which use pre-tax dollars.

Could you try sticking to the topic? We're talking about the money spent on healthcare per capita, and once again, we spend more per capita in the U.S. than Canada and we get less. I'll assume you can't refute that since you aren't addressing it.

The fact is, our administrative costs are higher. That cannot be refuted. We pay more for less. That cannot be refuted. Our wait times are less because not all of the public is served; millions are going without. Fact is, if everyone who needed medical care GOT medical care, our wait times would be longer. That also cannot be refuted.

Of course it can be refuted. If there were profit to be had in providing all people in the US with medical care, it would have been done years ago. This has never been an agument about capacity, but rather an argument about who pays. In Canada, because the provinces fund CHA delivery with a mix of federal and provincial sources, they are constrained, so people wait...and wait...and wait. Those with cash say "screw this" and buy private care.

Health care is like any other service delivered to market....why would the rules change for you? If you want CommieCare, figure out how to convince Congress and the majority of Americans. You are not getting my vote.

You say my statements can be refuted, yet you haven't refuted one of them. I suppose that's why you've reverted to the ignorant use of the term "commie care" again. I've noticed that you tend to do that at the end of a discussion, when you've got nothing left; when you can't refute/discuss what's actually been said.

BTW, way to ignore the part of my post where I corrected you regarding your accusation that what I said was "blatently false" when it wasn't. So big of you to acknolwledge your error.

Edited August 19, 2007 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

You say my statements can be refuted, yet you haven't refuted one of them. I suppose that's why you've reverted to the ignorant use of the term "commie care" again. I've noticed that you tend to do that at the end of a discussion, when you've got nothing left; when you can't refute/discuss what's actually been said.

BTW, way to ignore the part of my post where I corrected you regarding your accusation that what I said was "blatently false" when it wasn't. So big of you to acknolwledge your error.

Your point was refuted...you just don't agree. Please leave it at that.

"Blatently" false is not the same as "patently false"....please don't misquote me.

I have plenty left, or you and others would not be engaging my posts. "CommieCare" is effective bait for the hook...you always bite.

[Drea]

Little girl or BIG girl....same difference....see Medicaid

Isn't medicaid a form of insurance paid by your government? AHA! Commie care!

Clumsy Roofer? See "bonded and insured".

What if it were you who went up onto your roof to shovel the snow... and fell off and broke your back (pretend you have no private insurance coverage, like 40 million people in your country) what would you do?

Imperfect babies....far fewer than the millions of perfectly good ones aborted by you oh so caring individuals pining for a compassionate society.

I never brought abortion into the debate. The thread is about medical or the lack thereof. Please try to stay on topic.

So if your child (you are pretending you are uninsured remember?) gets lukemia you will simply let her die?

Your world sucks man...

In my world we save stupid homeowners after they fall off roofs, we try to save little girls with MS and lukemia.

In my world life is worth more than the dollar.

[Guest American Woman]

Your point was refuted...you just don't agree. Please leave it at that.

"Blatently" false is not the same as "patently false"....please don't misquote me.

I have plenty left, or you and others would not be engaging my posts. "CommieCare" is effective bait for the hook...you always bite.

I don't "bite;" I cringe at your ignorance. Seriously, you sound really stupid to me, and I admit I have a hard time dealing with stupid. And no, you refuted nothing I said. Nothing you said in response to my statements pertained even remotely to what I said.

I'll leave it at that.

[bush_cheney2004]

Isn't medicaid a form of insurance paid by your government? AHA! Commie care!

No, Medicaid is part of our "welfare" system...it is means tested.

What if it were you who went up onto your roof to shovel the snow... and fell off and broke your back (pretend you have no private insurance coverage, like 40 million people in your country) what would you do?

Pretend you know what you are talking about....emergency care cannot be denied in US hospitals.

I never brought abortion into the debate. The thread is about medical or the lack thereof. Please try to stay on topic.

No, but I did. So squirm in your own moral position...I have none.

So if your child (you are pretending you are uninsured remember?) gets lukemia you will simply let her die?

Your world sucks man...

In my world we save stupid homeowners after they fall off roofs, we try to save little girls with MS and lukemia.

In my world life is worth more than the dollar.

Save all you wish, just do it on your own nickle...err...loonie. "Little girls" (how sexist) die every day.....their moms kill them.

Edited August 19, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't "bite;" I cringe at your ignorance. Seriously, you sound really stupid to me, and I admit I have a hard time dealing with stupid. And no, you refuted nothing I said. Nothing you said in response to my statements pertained even remotely to what I said.

I'll leave it at that.

So you turn to insults....typical. I am neither ignorant or stupid...I just happen to disagree with you. So sue me.

[Guest American Woman]

So you turn to insults....typical. I am neither ignorant or stupid...I just happen to disagree with you. So sue me.

Using a term like "commie care" to "bait" in a discussion is both ignorant and stupid. That's not an insult, it's a fact. If you post like an intelligent adult, then I won't have to point out how ignorant and stupid your, by your own admission, "bating" is and you won't have to feel insulted. BTW, I don't 'typically turn to insults,' I discuss. Without baiting. So your accusation is blatently false.

You may disagree with me, but you can't do so in an intelligent matter because "baiting" is not intelligent. So quit crying about insults and grow up and discuss what's been said intelligently.

Edited August 19, 2007 by American Woman

[Drea]

No, Medicaid is part of our "welfare" system...it is means tested.

Tested? Please enlighten me?

Pretend you know what you are talking about....emergency care cannot be denied in US hospitals.

Of course the moment you break your back you need emergency care... but what about the long term?

Did Christopher Reeve need ongoing care or was his one visit to emergency after his accident fix him all up?

No, but I did. So squirm in your own moral position...I have none.

I know, and it's quite sad really that you have no morals.... you can get them though... just learn to put yourself in another's shoes... try the shoes of the "uninsured", bet they're very uncomfortable!

Save all wish, just do it on your own nickle...err...loonie. "Little girls" (how sexist) die every day.....their moms kill them.

It could've been a little boy with lukemia. It was simply an example. And obviously you are too thickheaded to get it.

Frig, you are even too thick to know how to visualize something different (that's what pretending is) than your own experiences.

[bush_cheney2004]

Using a term like "commie care" to "bait" in a discussion is both ignorant and stupid. That's not an insult, it's a fact. If you post like an intelligent adult, then I won't have to point out how ignorant and stupid your, by your own admission, "bating" is and you won't have to feel insulted. BTW, I don't 'typically turn to insults,' I discuss. Without baiting. That's blatently false. You may disagree with me, but you can't do so in an intelligent matter because "baiting" is not intelligent. So quit crying about insults and grow up and discuss what's been said intelligently.

Are you done lecturing me? Are you quite finished? Because I don't give a rat's ass about your judgements concerning what is or is not "ignorant" or "stupid". You have made numerous errors in prior posts but have not been subjected to such attacks. Debate the position, do not attack the poster. Even if it were permitted on this board , I would not waste time to sink and slink down to your level of personal insults.

Edited August 19, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Tested? Please enlighten me?

No, do you own homework.

Of course the moment you break your back you need emergency care... but what about the long term?

Did Christopher Reeve need ongoing care or was his one visit to emergency after his accident fix him all up?

Mr. Reeve had medical insurance. Try a better example.

I know, and it's quite sad really that you have no morals.... you can get them though... just learn to put yourself in another's shoes... try the shoes of the "uninsured", bet they're very uncomfortable!

Why? So I can feel superior? I have worn the "shoes" of the uninsured....no big deal.

It could've been a little boy with lukemia. It was simply an example. And obviously you are too thickheaded to get it.

Frig, you are even too thick to know how to visualize something different (that's what pretending is) than your own experiences.

Yes...yes...I am stupid...and you are smart. How come I can get better and faster medical care than you?

[Drea]

American Woman, this person just does not have the mental capacity to empathize. That's a symptom of inherent psychosis. It's unfortunate but I don't think anything can be done for him.

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, this person just does not have the mental capacity to empathize. That's a symptom of inherent psychosis. It's unfortunate but I don't think anything can be done for him.

That's a symptom too many suffer from sometimes, but he may find the country disagreeing with him sooner rather than later. I've read that healthcare is Americans' #1 concern for the next POTUS election.

The U.S. does seem to run behind Europe in some of these matters, while Canada seems more in tune with Europe. I just read where the U.S. lagged behind the medical community in the 1800's too, continuing with blood letting/bleeding even after European doctors were coming up with alternatives that actually worked. Stubborness combined with an arrogant "we/re right" attitude, I'm guessing.

[marcinmoka]

So very few people in the US ever suffer heart attacks,... just routine mole removals and the like? Well jeez, all the emergency rooms should be shut down then!

No. Mole removals are exceptions. Supposedly breast enlargements and basic checkups constitute the majority health care costs.

Then we should dispense with all administrative costs for your favorite type of organization....GOVERNMENT

I generally prefer a mix of both. Who cares who administers it. As long as its more efficient.

Debate the position, do not attack the poster

And why don't you, rather than imputing all this crap? How is one supposed to argue like an adult when the other person is crying like a little kid and lobbing accusations left and right, that if someone wants improve healthcare, they are communists, or want the government to dictate their lives. Grow up.

Ya think? High risk individuals should pay higher premiums, or be uninsurable. Next case.

If this is your logic, it is futile to even debate the issue. We will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue. But if it is going to be a pay-per-use system, why stop there. Why not make Police Services the same. You can have a Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Plastic levels of service. The quality/frequency you get should be based on your tax input. And naturally, those on welfare, or living in high risk neighborhoods, will just have to deal with the matter on their own. Hell, why pay taxes at all. Let the anarchists have their way.

I guess in the end, we are genuinely testing the healthcare system. By reading BC2004's posts, it looks as if he was suffering from a mild heart attack at us not understanding the concept of absolute greed and lack of compassion. Though judging by the clever "interpretations" (such as him telling me what is best for MYSELF), than denying it, it's reasonable to assume he also suffered a mild stroke while formulating his response(s).

Edited August 19, 2007 by marcinmoka

[bush_cheney2004]

American Woman, this person just does not have the mental capacity to empathize. That's a symptom of inherent psychosis. It's unfortunate but I don't think anything can be done for him.

Gosh, I hope not. I prefer to use my "mental capacity" to run circles around you. How does that make you "feel", assuming that's what you do best.

[bush_cheney2004]

The U.S. does seem to run behind Europe in some of these matters, while Canada seems more in tune with Europe. I just read where the U.S. lagged behind the medical community in the 1800's too, continuing with blood letting/bleeding even after European doctors were coming up with alternatives that actually worked. Stubborness combined with an arrogant "we/re right" attitude, I'm guessing.

Sure...that's why all the world's wealthy folks head for America when their asses are on the line. We see 'em fly in to Rochester, MN for the Mayo Clinic all the time. Even the not so wealthy show up...like those from Canada tired of waiting for their procedures. Cash or credit card?

[bush_cheney2004]

No. Mole removals are exceptions. Supposedly breast enlargements and basic checkups constitute the majority health care costs.

So much for your theory, eh? Shall government be there for boob jobs too?

And why don't you, rather than imputing all this crap? How is one supposed to argue like an adult when the other person is crying like a little kid and lobbing accusations left and right, that if someone wants improve healthcare, they are communists, or want the government to dictate their lives. Grow up.

Awwww...watsa matta? What's wrong with being a proud Communist? Michael Moore thinks that CommieCare is just swell in Cuba. Stop whining and engage the issue of who is going to pay for your CommieCare. That's what this is about.

Nobody really gives a damn whether you (or me) lives or dies. (Dennis Miller)

If this is your logic, it is futile to even debate the issue. We will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue. But if it is going to be a pay-per-use system, why stop there. Why not make Police Services the same. You can have a Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Plastic levels of service. The quality/frequency you get should be based on your tax input. And naturally, those on welfare, or living in high risk neighborhoods, will just have to deal with the matter on their own. Hell, why pay taxes at all. Let the anarchists have their way.

We already do exactly this. So what's your problem?

I guess in the end, we are genuinely testing the healthcare system. By reading BC2004's posts, it looks as if he was suffering from a mild heart attack at us not understanding the concept of absolute greed and lack of compassion. Though judging by the clever "interpretations" (such as him telling me what is best for MYSELF), than denying it, it's reasonable to assume he also suffered a mild stroke while formulating his response(s).

I see you have studied at the American Woman School of Debate. It still won't save your "weak" position.

[Guest American Woman]

Sure...that's why all the world's wealthy folks head for America when their asses are on the line. We see 'em fly in to Rochester, MN for the Mayo Clinic all the time. Even the not so wealthy show up...like those from Canada tired of waiting for their procedures. Cash or credit card?

We see 'em flying from America to India, too. In such increasing numbers that "medical tourism" is a thriving business The Mayo Clinic is great for those with health coverage or big bucks, but many are going elsewhere and getting top medical care for much less. On that note, I'd like proof that the "not so wealthy" are showing up at Mayo from Canada. Got any sources to back that up? "Cash" for services at Mayo would be all but impossible for someone "not so wealthy" and credit cards have to have a high available limit; and they have to be paid back. I'm guessing those Canadians would be heading for India, too.

[margrace]

Your point was refuted...you just don't agree. Please leave it at that.

"Blatently" false is not the same as "patently false"....please don't misquote me.

I have plenty left, or you and others would not be engaging my posts. "CommieCare" is effective bait for the hook...you always bite.

I would really like to know bush_cheney exactly how much profit you make from your American insurance companies.

[margrace]

We see 'em flying from America to India, too. In such increasing numbers that "medical tourism" is a thriving business The Mayo Clinic is great for those with health coverage or big bucks, but many are going elsewhere and getting top medical care for much less. On that note, I'd like proof that the "not so wealthy" are showing up at Mayo from Canada. Got any sources to back that up? "Cash" for services at Mayo would be all but impossible for someone "not so wealthy" and credit cards have to have a high available limit; and they have to be paid back. I'm guessing those Canadians would be heading for India, too.

I only know of one person in our area who goes to the Mayo Clinic, he drove. He also owns factories in Europe and Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

I would really like to know bush_cheney exactly how much profit you make from your American insurance companies.

Different form of attack? OK....I'd like to know how much you make thumping bibles?

[margrace]

Different form of attack? OK....I'd like to know how much you make thumping bibles?

Interesting reply, thumping bibles, how do you arrive at that idea. I believe the bible was written by men such as you. You have two agendas to control the masses and keep women down. You evidently have no use for the common man, read too much Ayn Rand haven't you.

Everyone deserves proper health care whether you believe it or not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Interesting reply, thumping bibles, how do you arrive at that idea. I believe the bible was written by men such as you. You have two agendas to control the masses and keep women down. You evidently have no use for the common man, read too much Ayn Rand haven't you.

Everyone deserves proper health care whether you believe it or not.

I just wanted to offer up an equally inane question in response to yours.

Everyone "deserves" no such thing, especially free access to the services and products of others. That's communism...hence "CommieCare". In the US, democratically elected representatives have determined who qualifies and how much of government resources shall be dedicated to Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and state programs....sorry if you don't like how we do things. OTOH, I don't care what Canada does for a health care system. I certainly don't mind the provinces sending lanquishing Canadian patients to the states for faster and 'mo better care.

[margrace]

I just wanted to offer up an equally inane question in response to yours.

Everyone "deserves" no such thing, especially free access to the services and products of others. That's communism...hence "CommieCare". In the US, democratically elected representatives have determined who qualifies and how much of government resources shall be dedicated to Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and state programs....sorry if you don't like how we do things. OTOH, I don't care what Canada does for a health care system. I certainly don't mind the provinces sending lanquishing Canadian patients to the states for faster and 'mo better care.

Of coarse you don't mind Canadian Patients. A new mother sent down from Albert for a delivery cost our system $30.000 a day, in Canada it would have been $10,500 a day. It was an emergency evidently that Calgary couldn't Handle. Since you obviously have a vested in interest why would you mind.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of coarse you don't mind Canadian Patients. A new mother sent down from Albert for a delivery cost our system $30.000 a day, in Canada it would have been $10,500 a day. It was an emergency evidently that Calgary couldn't Handle. Since you obviously have a vested in interest why would you mind.

Not sure I follow your post, but I do understand that Calgary/Alberta "couldn't handle" a medical procedure, so as usual they turned to the excess capacity of the American for-profit health care system. I hope the Americans were paid handsomely and that mother/child are doing well....in that order.