Detainee Agreement

[M.Dancer]

OTTAWA — The Harper government has struck a new detainee transfer agreement with Afghanistan that includes stringent safeguards for follow-up monitoring to prevent torture and abuse that were previously absent, it was revealed in federal court today.

The new deal signed this morning in Kabul by Canada's new ambassador to Afghanistan, closes the gaping holes that rights groups claim existed in the original agreement signed by chief of defence staff Lieutenant-General Rick Hillier in Dec 2005.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...503.wkoring0503

Well, probably make no one particularly happy, especially those who care greatly for the Taliban but it will certainly please more than if we took no prisoners, ever.

[Keepitsimple]

Interesting comment in the article from the Federal judge:

“It probably wouldn't have happened if this court hadn't been happening,” he said as he announced a postponement of proceedings.

Does that not sound like a partisan comment? Nah, couldn't be - he's a judge.

[FTA Lawyer]

Interesting comment in the article from the Federal judge:

“It probably wouldn't have happened if this court hadn't been happening,” he said as he announced a postponement of proceedings.

Does that not sound like a partisan comment? Nah, couldn't be - he's a judge.

I don't see it as partisan so much as realistic...I'm a conservative supporter generally speaking, and I can hardly argue that the new agreement doesn't owe its existence to the lawsuit filed by human rights groups.

That being said, is anyone else concerned by this comment?

Judge Kelen said that aside from the Globe article,

human rights groups had not provided any evidence of those transferred by Canada actually having been tortured

, but relied on evidence that inhumane treatment is common in Afghanistan.

I mean, evidence of a problem would be convenient wouldn't it?

FTA

[Army Guy]

I mean, evidence of a problem would be convenient wouldn't it?

Thank you FTA, for pionting that out , the next question should be "WHY" are we so quick to believe heresay, and my final question is Have the majority of Canadians based thier current opinons on the same type of materials.

[Peter F]

I mean, evidence of a problem would be convenient wouldn't it?

Thank you FTA, for pionting that out , the next question should be "WHY" are we so quick to believe heresay, and my final question is Have the majority of Canadians based thier current opinons on the same type of materials.

From the G&M article immediately prior to FTA's quote

Torture and abuse is rife in Afghan jails, according to international reports, rights groups and even Canada's Foreign Affairs department.

A Globe and Mail investigation last week detailed the abuse of at least 30 detainees who said they were tortured while Afghan custody. They had been captured by Canadians and handed over to local authorities.

It isn't about the army...its about Afghani treatment of prisoners - be they legal combatants or not. Considering Afghanistans reputation regarding prisoners I think its quite reasonable to ensure that Canadian authorities can effectively monitor the treatment of said prisoners.

Obviously, the Canadian government felt themselves to be on shakey ground regarding the issue and have taken steps to molify criticism. The scandal got the government to act.

Soldiers and Hillier may take it as a slight on thier reputation but since the question is doe's Afghanistan treat thier prisoners humanely, the oppinions of the military personel don't really matter.

I would hope that the boys continue doing thier job in the professional manner they have been. Good luck.

[Topaz]

The agreement Hiller signed couldn't be illegal because he had to be signed by a minister and this is just one item that doesn't get taken care of when one govt leaves and naother comes in. Harper's govt should have caught this, so whose to blame for that? Foreign Affairs, Defense, anyone else? As far as the Afghanistan, there is corruption within the government itself. I hope Canada has learned lesson fron the US and Iraq. If the people that were/are tortured don't come forward ,then we'll never know. I doubt if they will because they would probably be killed. We must remember, this is the Middle-East not North America. You can get killed or put in prison for being a Christian in this country!

[Army Guy]

It isn't about the army...its about Afghani treatment of prisoners - be they legal combatants or not. Considering Afghanistans reputation regarding prisoners I think its quite reasonable to ensure that Canadian authorities can effectively monitor the treatment of said prisoners.

Actually my question was WHY canadians were so quick to believe here say evidence ? ...And has the majority of Canadians followed the same logic in regards to thier opinions on the mission.?

A Globe and Mail investigation last week detailed the abuse of at least 30 detainees who said they were tortured while Afghan custody. They had been captured by Canadians and handed over to local authorities.

I'm sure i could gather up bus loads of detainess that would swear that the moon was made of chesse if it meant it would benifit thier cause. That does not make it true, if they had hard evidence names, places, medical facts...then it should be made public and investagated to the fullest.

Soldiers and Hillier may take it as a slight on thier reputation but since the question is doe's Afghanistan treat thier prisoners humanely, the oppinions of the military personel don't really matter.

Since when do we exclude groups from having a voice, Since it is soldiers taking said prisoners, processing them, and in some cases been accused of breaking conventions we uphold i would hope we had a voice.

This is not just about the treatment of prisoners it also reflects on how Canadians view the mission as a whole , with the mission not a very popular choice at this time it has slipped to the minority of Canadians and Soldiers to atleast speak on it's behalf.

[Keepitsimple]

Comment moved

[jdobbin]

Latest on detainees in Afghanistan.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Prisoners at an Afghan jail in Kandahar are being bashed with bricks, having their fingernails ripped out, getting electrocuted, being forced to stand up without sleeping and are whipped with electric cables, Montreal La Presse reports.

The newspaper cites interviews with three prisoners and independent sources like a spokesman for the Afghan Human Rights Commission and a prison boss.

The Conservative government in Ottawa responded to similar reports last spring by saying it had a new a deal to monitor detainees.

On Monday, the government responded to the latest report by dismissing it as Taliban propaganda.

"We do expect these kinds of allegations from the Taliban,'' said Tory House leader Peter Van Loan.

"It is their standard operating procedure to engage in these kinds of accusations.''

But Montreal La Presse painted a different portrait after a recent visit to a Kandahar prison.

A spokesman for the Afghan Human Rights Commission is quoted as saying that about a third of prisoners are still being tortured by Afghanistan's secret service before they are taken to prison.

"The Canadians give us a sealed envelope with the names of the prisoners. The problem is that list never corresponds to the one compiled by the secret service,'' said commission spokesman Shamuldin Tanwir.

[Moxie]

Give me strength, they had a democratic election did they not? Well frankly it's not our problem what happens to a supposed criminal or terrorist it's the Afghani Governments. I wish these bleeding hearts cared when the Taliban and it's merry band of filthy pigs stoned women to death (buried in pits up to their necks) what a bunch of GD hypocrites. I'm sick of bleedying hearts braying at the media wringing their hands over RUMORS of supposed wrong doing. Considering how the the average Afghani mindset is still in the middle ages I'd say torture is part and parcel of their beliefs. Now remember the far leftest not and bawled over us enforcing our beliefs and our version of "Democracy" on the people of Afghanistan if we burned their crops. I can't keep up with them chasing their velcro shoeless laces. Really we invaded the country according to them, we are enforcing our beliefs (we aren't) and in the next breath they demand we enforce our judicial laws based on our beliefs. Confused, well dah they make me pull my hair out by the handful with their never ending stream of stupidity and hypocrisy. USEFUL IDIOTS.

[capricorn]

Looks like the Toronto Star and the Globe have passed the torch to La Presse to keep the torture story alive. Kind of appropriate since a large contingent of the Van Doos are on duty in Afghanistan. This was the Star's coverage in May 2007.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/210261

Today's La Presse article refers to the Globe and Mail article of April 23, 2007 which really got the ball rolling on the torture of Afghan detainees. That Globe article contains this statement.

"None of the abuse was inflicted by Canadians, and most Afghans captured — even those who clearly sympathized with the Taliban — praised the Canadian soldiers for their politeness, their gentle handling of captives and their comfortable detention facility."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ry/Afghanistan/

Had the Canadian soldiers been able to transfer those detainees to a 5-star Hilton what we'd be looking at today would be a public relations coup in favour of the Conservatives.

It's interesting that La Presse has sought out prisoners to interview and conducted visits to the Sarpoza prison, but not one word in their reporting about interviewing average Afghan civilians. Maybe that will come later.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20071029...9/5050/CPPRESSE

[jdobbin]

Give me strength, they had a democratic election did they not? Well frankly it's not our problem what happens to a supposed criminal or terrorist it's the Afghani Governments.

If they were handed over by Canadians and were tortured, it does become a Canadian problem. Certainly Canadians have shown they don't want to be involved in torture and the last time the government ignored the reports, there was a price paid in the political polls.

[Keepitsimple]

Here we go again. The Taliban, like every terrorist are taught to make claims of torture in order to manipulate public opinion through naive reporters......and of course, reporters can never reveal their source - so we never get to know who actually made the allegations....and around and around it goes.

[capricorn]

Here we go again. The Taliban, like every terrorist are taught to make claims of torture in order to manipulate public opinion through naive reporters......and of course, reporters can never reveal their source - so we never get to know who actually made the allegations....and around and around it goes.

Surely you're not surprised are you, keepitsimple? The opposition needs an issue to sidetrack the Conservatives and gain the media's attention. La Presse has presented a bone to be chewed on. IMO Canadians are taking these allegations of torture by the Taliban and their sympathizers with a grain of salt. What most Canadians are more interested in is what Flaherty will have to say in his upcoming economic update, that is, what's in it for me. What's going on right now with all politicians is a fight for the headlines and the more sensational, the better.

[jdobbin]

Here we go again. The Taliban, like every terrorist are taught to make claims of torture in order to manipulate public opinion through naive reporters......and of course, reporters can never reveal their source - so we never get to know who actually made the allegations....and around and around it goes.

And the government tries to keep a lid on what they know so the public is often left with the impression that news stories are true.

[jdobbin]

Surely you're not surprised are you, keepitsimple? The opposition needs an issue to sidetrack the Conservatives and gain the media's attention. La Presse has presented a bone to be chewed on. IMO Canadians are taking these allegations of torture by the Taliban and their sympathizers with a grain of salt. What most Canadians are more interested in is what Flaherty will have to say in his upcoming economic update, that is, what's in it for me. What's going on right now with all politicians is a fight for the headlines and the more sensational, the better.

I don't recall La Presse being part of the Opposition.

As for the grain of salt you are referring to: the last time allegations were made, there was a drop in the polls.

[capricorn]

And the government tries to keep a lid on what they know so the public is often left with the impression that news stories are true.

Are we to assume that the public believes everything it reads or hears? What about those who don't keep up with the news?

I don't expect the government to let me in on everything it knows. But I do expect the government to look after the problems that arise. That goes for allegations of torture by detainees such as those raised by La Presse.

[jdobbin]

Are we to assume that the public believes everything it reads or hears? What about those who don't keep up with the news?

I don't expect the government to let me in on everything it knows. But I do expect the government to look after the problems that arise. That goes for allegations of torture by detainees such as those raised by La Presse.

The government tries to keep a lid on everything lately so who is to tell what is the truth and what isn't? Even information that recounts the history of a particular unit in World War 2 was recently blacked out by the present government.

Reporters who have just arrived back from Afghanistan have said that even when they see good news stories, they are often forbidden from reporting them because no one will go on the record or national security is cited.

So far the government has dismissed the charges like they did last time. However, the last time proved to be the final straw for O'Connor who was being contradicted by almost everyone at every turn about detainees.

[capricorn]

I don't recall La Presse being part of the Opposition.

As for the grain of salt you are referring to: the last time allegations were made, there was a drop in the polls.

I did not refer to La Presse as part of the opposition? Read my post. I said La Presse presented a bone to chew on.

So the poll numbers for the Conservatives dropped last time is what I think you are saying. That was then and this is now. Let's see what happens in the next round of polls. Maybe Canadians will be swayed by other issues in the meantime and the polls will reflect that. Things are very volatile right now and neither one of us can predict the outcome of opinion polls. But as I don't pay attention to polls, even when they're in favour of the Conservatives, I'm sure you'll bring them to my attention.

[jdobbin]

I did not refer to La Presse as part of the opposition? Read my post. I said La Presse presented a bone to chew on.

So the poll numbers for the Conservatives dropped last time is what I think you are saying. That was then and this is now. Let's see what happens in the next round of polls. Maybe Canadians will be swayed by other issues in the meantime and the polls will reflect that. Things are very volatile right now and neither one of us can predict the outcome of opinion polls. But as I don't pay attention to polls, even when they're in favour of the Conservatives, I'm sure you'll bring them to my attention.

La Presse isn't publishing stories for Opposition ammo in Parliament. By all accounts, they are covering the story of what happens after Canadians take prisoners and hand them over. It seems to me that the information provided could benefit the government if they are able to find out if the allegations are true and deal with them.

The last time this was an issue, the pollsters said it hurt Conservatives badly and led to O'Connor's defeat.

As for this week's poll, Ipsos reports Tories down one, Liberals same numbers. All short of majority numbers.

[capricorn]

La Presse isn't publishing stories for Opposition ammo in Parliament.

As well, I don't think La Presse is an "agent" of the opposition and I never suggested it was.

By all accounts, they are covering the story of what happens after Canadians take prisoners and hand them over. It seems to me that the information provided could benefit the government if they are able to find out if the allegations are true and deal with them.

I agree. I expect the government to use all information sources to get to the truth and take corrective measures as required.

The last time this was an issue, the pollsters said it hurt Conservatives badly and led to O'Connor's defeat.

I'm not so sure that the polling numbers were the defining factor which led Harper to replace O'Connor. I think he knew there was a problem before the negative numbers were publicized.

As for this week's poll, Ipsos reports Tories down one, Liberals same numbers. All short of majority numbers.

Thank you jd. I wasn't aware.

[capricorn]

"Human rights groups have cleared a major hurdle in a landmark lawsuit that claims Canada is violating the Charter of Rights by handing over prisoners in Afghanistan to face potential torture.

In a decision released Monday, Justice Anne Mactavish of Federal Court rejected a motion by government lawyers to quash the suit and ruled that Amnesty International and the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association deserve their day in court."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/200...4583594-cp.html

The article does not say what should happen to the Detainee Agreement while this case goes through the Federal Court. What happens now? Will Canadian soldiers have to build a jail in Kandahar and operate it until this case is completed? Will Canadian soldiers have to let go enemies that should be captured? Depending on the implications of the lawsuit, this could turn into a real nightmare for our soldiers serving there.

[Army Guy]

The article does not say what should happen to the Detainee Agreement while this case goes through the Federal Court. What happens now? Will Canadian soldiers have to build a jail in Kandahar and operate it until this case is completed? Will Canadian soldiers have to let go enemies that should be captured? Depending on the implications of the lawsuit, this could turn into a real nightmare for our soldiers serving there.

My question is what is the entire piont here, Is the question about what actually happens to detainess really the agenda here, i mean how many Canadians really give a rats ass about detainees, does it really give us the moral high ground...

Or is it something deeper....are we really telling the US government we like you, we'll fight beside you, but we don't trust you when it comes down to your word that you'll treat our POW's according to the conventions...the same could be said to the Afgan government, were here to help but your word means nothing.

These detainees are either Afganis, or foreigners and they should be an afgan problem period...don't like that solution take it up with them...It seems more time and effort is spent on giving our enemies rights and comfort than what is being spent on our own troops...Do we really think that the Taliban has such a group worried about Coalition POW's or is cutting ones head off with a dull knife humane or not...ya right...

Something all Canadians should keep in the back of thier minds that not one of us would be afforded the same rights or expect the conventions to be followed by this group of scumbags.

who's only goal in life is to be killed in battle killing infidels....Thats me and you, your kids, your dog, your cat, and your pet fish willy....

So what is the agenda, and why are we pushing to get this all done.

[Fortunata]

My question is what is the entire piont here, Is the question about what actually happens to detainess really the agenda here, i mean how many Canadians really give a rats ass about detainees, does it really give us the moral high ground...

It is important and we do give a rat's ass because we are only as good as our lowest act. If detainees are tortured by failing to act or, even worse, by general consent, it is we, the country, that believes in and condones the use of torture. You see, it really comes down to what do we as a society think is right or wrong. It matters not what others do; we cannot use that as a yardstick to our own beliefs and morality.

[weaponeer]

It is important and we do give a rat's ass because we are only as good as our lowest act. If detainees are tortured by failing to act or, even worse, by general consent, it is we, the country, that believes in and condones the use of torture. You see, it really comes down to what do we as a society think is right or wrong. It matters not what others do; we cannot use that as a yardstick to our own beliefs and morality.

I seriously doubt any Canadians are hanging around the sports bar, drinking a beer, watching the Leafs game and worrying about taliban prisoners, be serious. There are not 100K people marching through the streets demanding we be nice to talib prisoners, get real. Yes, dirty, smelly hippies and freaks in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal care, because they don't have jobs and have nothing better to do but oppose everything their country does.

I just came home after 6 months there. If you actually saw them, and what they do up close, you would not give a rats ass what happens to them. You care because they are the enemy, you are opposed to us being there, want them to win and bloddy our noses.

Any sane person who met a talib, and saw their handy work up close would not give a damm about them once captured.