O'Connor's Future

[madmax]

The fact these folks are still alive to even talk to the G&M is something. Most ANA units don't like to take prisoners. Canadians are not new to this, my grandfather fought the Waffen SS in WW2, and the Canuck did not take too many of them POW...

ANA= Afghan National Army

Once a prisoner is taken, you do not kill or torture them. The Afghan forces have always taken prisoners. It is how they do business. Determine the value of the prisoner. If the prisoner has no value, then this is bad news for the prisoner.

Unfortuneately if the prisoner has value, he could be released, which is not uncommon for the Afghans.

[weaponeer]

We could try and get Hellyer back, but he's out looking for UFO's......

[Figleaf]

Detainees, seems that Libs and of course NDP care more about the enemy then our own, no surprise there.

Sickening, scurrilous comment.

Where is the conflict between following our international obligations and protecting the troops?

[Michael Bluth]

We could try and get Hellyer back, but he's out looking for UFO's......

In the 2000 election I lived in the riding Hellyer ran in. Didn't know it until I got to the polling booth.

Almost changed my vote intention in the booth. But an alien told me not to.

[Fortunata]

Detainees, seems that Libs and of course NDP care more about the enemy then our own, no surprise there.

Sickening, scurrilous comment.

Where is the conflict between following our international obligations and protecting the troops?

There is no conflict. But this is what the Steve government does, misrepresents and lies to serve their political purposes. And some people are just too happy to parrot this nonsense just because they can.

We signed on to the Geneva conventions. We should operate anywhere in the world with those rules. We are not a society that cannot care about our troops AND human rights. We are multifaceted and can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Most Canadians are smart enough to realize that we are being lied to. We are constantly told about the "good" we are doing (and I don't believe we are not doing good), girls are going to school without fear (human right is it not?), we are there helping set up an accountable government, justice system, etc. then on the other hand we have these same people saying that tortures and/or mistreatments by these same institutions are OK because they are "Taliban" (not really human?) and that if a few good innocent people fall through the cracks, oh well (betsy), them's the breaks? Afghans don't see this confusing and hypocritical stance we take? Either we are there to help or we aren't. It's as simple as that.

And for those who say there was the same problem under the Liberals need to get your head around this:

The Conservatives form the government right now. It is theirs to do. No amount of blame and finger pointing on a former government negates the need for action under their governance.

[Michael Bluth]

And for those who say there was the same problem under the Liberals need to get your head around this:

The Conservatives form the government right now. It is theirs to do. No amount of blame and finger pointing on a former government negates the need for action under their governance.

The Conservatives are doing a better job than the Liberals were. You need to get your head around that.

[Fortunata]

Yes Steve.

[Army Guy]

We signed on to the Geneva conventions. We should operate anywhere in the world with those rules. We are not a society that cannot care about our troops AND human rights. We are multifaceted and can walk and chew gum at the same time.

It's time that liberals stop using our troops for thier polictical goals, they've made it clear they want our of Afgan mission and will do anything to make that happen. Get off the horse and step away from your superior moral values. We are not a society that cares about thier troops, it's one thing to say we support our troops, the hard part is actually supporting them....., our military is in the state it is in today because the majority of Canadians wanted it that way, end of story...And i would agree that there is alot of other depts that required more attention and funding , but not at the cost that DND has suffered todate...

Yes we have signed onto the conventions , all of them, and they are being adhered to, unless you can prove other wise. Oh wait another example of how we care about our troops, lets piont the finger at them after every unproven accusation...

And for those who say there was the same problem under the Liberals need to get your head around this:

Your 100 % correct, the leadership of our country should take the responsiabilty for all it's actions and for all the problems our nation faces....that being said, someone in the liberal party should be talking to those month pieces of thier own, and explain to them "ppsssttt we did the same thing" and thier reponsability for thier actions do not stop after a defeat at the polls... but then again we are a nation of finger pionters are we not....perhaps if we stop the "acting for the Cameras" thing we could sit down and work out a few problems....Nah...

[Fortunata]

You know ArmyGuy, you jump on the jump to conclusion bandwagon a bit too often. Because Harper puts out this political spin that you can't both support our troops and not want to see prisoner mistreatment you buy into it? I am a big "L" Liberal if I think we can do both? The Steve propaganda lives on in many forms.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I am not a big "L" Liberal; I don't vote for them and the only reason I would want to see them back in power is to get Steve the hell out of it. I don't buy any party line and think political rhetoric is meant for the brainless masses who either can't or don't want to bother thinking for themselves. You can parrot Steve all you want but that doesn't make you right. And just because you are a Steve parrot doesn't make me not believe in our people in Afghanistan; that we have ideals different from Afghan ideals and that we don't lower ourselves to other's standards. Too idealistic for you? Tough.

My email to my MP before the big vote was:

I believe in our troops and I believe in our mission. This mission should be extended as long as our boots-on-the-ground soldiers believe they should be there; that they can continue to make a positive contribution. We can pull out once they think they have done all they can do or if they decide that the price they pay is too much. It's easy for politicians to make life and death decisions that aren't always based on what's right but only on what is politically right for their party. Politicians hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see; they are not the experts. It is our soldiers who are paying the ultimate price and it should be left to them to decide if this mission is worth it.

So ArmyGuy, I have suggested leaving it in your hands. Do I have to be a Conservative to believe in what you do? Or is a non-Con believing just too much for you to take in?

[Army Guy]

You know ArmyGuy, you jump on the jump to conclusion bandwagon a bit too often. Because Harper puts out this political spin that you can't both support our troops and not want to see prisoner mistreatment you buy into it? I am a big "L" Liberal if I think we can do both? The Steve propaganda lives on in many forms.

DO i really, Am i the one jumping to conclusions, lets start with the actual problem first, Does anyone have any evidence other than here say that any prisoners captured by Canadian troops were abused, is there any evidance that those prisoners handed over to the afganis government were abused, or tortured. Or again is it all here say. rumours...And yet we support our troops so much, that we take this here say evidence and harden our opinions, It's got to be true....The main problem as i see it is we are guilty of not doing follow up checks on these prisoner, and relying on other agencies to do this process for us....

The other piont i was responding to was your statement " We are not a society that cannot care about our troops AND human rights. We are multifaceted and can walk and chew gum at the same time.

And here i thought there was more to supporting our men and women in uniform than wearing red on fridays or putting a sticker on your veh, I thought it would mean ensuring that they the soldiers had the proper equipment and supplies for caring out this nations wishes when it comes down to policies at home or abroad. To which i disagreed, as our history has shown us, Canada has decided that our military is the way it is because that is what they wanted...nothing more...and from a soldiers piont , it means that the majority of Canadians did not support our nations military. Now things are changing slowly, Canadians are more than willing to upgrade our military, but not at the cost of anything else. So i guess the question is what do you call support ?

Yes we have signed onto the conventions , all of them, and they are being adhered to, unless you can prove other wise. Oh wait another example of how we care about our troops, lets piont the finger at them after every unproven accusation...

Let me ask you this how is the above statement being a harper parot, although i deserve that one, tit for tat. i was responding as a soldier who while in Afgan "Canadians" accused us of abusing Prisoners, they responded by demanding a national inquiry, they responded by demanding a full inquiry into every concerning our treatment of prisoners....

Like they did not trust us as far as they could throw us...one day they hail you as a hero, the next they slap you in the face and stare down at you from thier towers....That is what i call support...all of this on some here say evidence....not once did i hear them say, lets wait and see what the inquiry brings out....instead all we saw was a wall of fingers all of which were pionting at us....

DID i jump to conclusions, no, a little bitter yes....

And just because you are a Steve parrot doesn't make me not believe in our people in Afghanistan; that we have ideals different from Afghan ideals and that we don't lower ourselves to other's standards. Too idealistic for you? Tough.

You've yet to prove that we have lowered our standards, there may be accusations but there is no proof.

everyone is assuming the worse or guilty until proven other wise...much like the prisoner abuse by Canadian soldiers scandle that is still going on....We as Canadian soldiers hold all of our responsbilities to the highest regard , we have infact set the standards in many many things including our handling of prisoners. But that is just my opinion.

[Fortunata]

ArmyGuy, nobody is accusing Canadian soldiers themselves of being abusive. Lets get that straight right off the bat. If anything I believe that most of us believe you (as in Cdn soldiers in Afghanistan) are acting with great restraint and propriety in very dangerous and trying situations. The system of handing over detainees to Afghan authorities who may (I'll give you that one) abuse is the problem. It's our system that should be held to our standards. The people who don't care if detainees are mistreated, even though they have not had charges, trials or sentencing are by their very statements, saying that we should lower our standards to those of a basically lawless and cruel society.

[jdobbin]

O'Connor continues to duck Parliament.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070430/...l/commons_notes

After spending last week nailed to his seat in the House of Commons, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor was nowhere to be seen during question period Monday. Others took questions directed towards his empty chair on the Afghan detainee issue.

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Speculation about O'Connor's future has been a capital sport since allegations surfaced of torture in Afghan prisons.

That kind of speculation led to a stern note from his spokeswoman:

"If any of you give credit to the rumour that MND (minister of national defence) will resign, will look studip (sic). It is not true he will NOT resign.

If anyone should resign it should be the staff member who wrote this note.

[Army Guy]

ArmyGuy, nobody is accusing Canadian soldiers themselves of being abusive. Lets get that straight right off the bat. If anything I believe that most of us believe you (as in Cdn soldiers in Afghanistan) are acting with great restraint and propriety in very dangerous and trying situations.

My Webpage

Your right, not in this post, however i mentioned it because the two are linked and i'll explain. It demonstrates how easily we are swayed and how easily the reputation of our military and our nation can be damaged. The accusations of Canadian soldiers abusing prisoners sparked serveral national inquiries, and it did spark great debate in our nation. It amassed me just how fast Canadians changed thier colors and thier support for thier military. This accusation has been debunked , but the damage has been done...

This accusation has uncovered another problem the one we are currently discussing, And while i agree it is a problem it is another accusation that has no proof, again Canadians are taking these accusations as being true, and not waiting for the investagations to finish or produce an outcome.

It's our system that should be held to our standards. The people who don't care if detainees are mistreated, even though they have not had charges, trials or sentencing are by their very statements, saying that we should lower our standards to those of a basically lawless and cruel society

Your right , it is our system and we as a nation should be setting the example, i have myself said that although i have been part of capturing prisoners, and ensured that they were respected in all ways while in our custody, that i did not care what happened to them after they left our custody, i admit this is wrong...

i also want to add that those we captured were in Operation mudusa and were combantants who just minutes before were bent on killing me and my section. That and the fact i've seen thier handy work in regards to terrorizing the Afganis people. This has tainted my opinion but has also given me something i can relate to on just how the Afganis also veiw these terrorists as it was thier loved ones they practiced thier terror on. although i don't condone torture, i do understand why they do it, and it will take some time to change that.

[jdobbin]

There was continued calls for O'Connor's resignation today.

Opposition MPs renewed their calls for the defence minister's resignation on Tuesday, questioning how much Conservatives knew about allegations of prisoner abuse in Afghanistan.

Liberal Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff accused the Conservatives of denying any specific knowledge of the allegations until Monday.

"The prime minister and the ministers have insisted in their denials that the government had any specific knowledge about allegations of torture," he said.

"Then yesterday, the minister of public safety admitted that the government did know about specific allegations of torture and that Corrections Canada officers in Afghanistan had told him last week, so we have a startling new admission."

It would appear the issue is now hurting the Tories in the polls. I wonder how long Harper will back O'Connor.

[jdobbin]

Think I said from the very beginning that this sounded like a cost that was likely to rise.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...17?hub=Politics

he cost of Canada's new battle tanks and its overall involvement in the Afghan war have increased sharply.

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor told the Commons tonight during debate over his department's budget that the cost of long-term support for the army's 100 used Leopard 2A6 tanks will be about $650 million.

That cost is in addition to the $650 million being spent on the capital purchase of the armoured vehicles.

[Army Guy]

There is some misunderstanding here, the orginal 650 mil contract was for the lease of 20 LeoIIA6 tanks plus the purchase of 80 LeoIIA4 tanks (which includes 20 assorted versions such as taurus recover vehs, Bager engineer vehs, and beaver brigde layers). The contract also includes training and logistics for only 5 years.

It did not include price to upgrade the other 60 LeoIIA4 tanks to A6 standards, plus the contract for logistics and training is for an addtional 15 years.. Tanks are very expensive to operate, and Afgan eats vehs for breakfast.

CSAR

The Additional sticker shock is hard to swallow, and normal Canadians don't see this when they purchase a veh, if you got the bill for 20 years of parts and labour added to the price tag i think most of us would be purchaseing bikes or walking to work..

[M.Dancer]

The Additional sticker shock is hard to swallow, and normal Canadians don't see this when they purchase a veh, if you got the bill for 20 years of parts and labour added to the price tag i think most of us would be purchaseing bikes or walking to work..

Good point. According to the Globe, it's 20 plus 100, not 20 plus 80

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

The total project cost of the loaned tanks, the acquisition of 100 surplus tanks from the Netherlands, the requisite upgrades and enhancements to this new Leopard 2 fleet, and an initial acquisition of spare parts is $650 million, which will be funded from existing departmental allocations,” said a National Defence background paper released at the minister's Quebec City announcement.

The leased 20 are from Germany

[Army Guy]

I wish... but we are only get 100 vehs total, that includes the 20 leased from germany which will be replaced out of the netherlands stock.

[jdobbin]

The Additional sticker shock is hard to swallow, and normal Canadians don't see this when they purchase a veh, if you got the bill for 20 years of parts and labour added to the price tag i think most of us would be purchaseing bikes or walking to work..

I think I mentioned when the initial contract was announced that it sounded low.

I'm of the same opinion regarding the patrol ships they plan for the north.