If the PQ Wins

[jdobbin]

I wouldn't have thought it a couple of weeks ago. It seemed that Charest had dug slowly out of the hole he was in. It also looked that the gift of a federal budget would give him some additional breathing room.

Now, I'm not so sure the PQ won't sneak in with a Liberal/ADQ split.

There are so many Quebec Tories supporting the ADQ that they might help create the circumstances that brings the PQ to power.

Harper has indicated that he doesn't like this idea at all and has said he won't play ball with a separatist party in government. Problem is that he has given them a lot of money to do what they do best: Ask for more and threaten separation.

The thoughts of a federal election in the midst of this can't be overlooked. The best time for Harper to go would appear to be now. They don't want Dion or the other parties to gain over the spring and summer for unforeseen reasons: Scandal in government, Afghanistan, recession...whatever.

A PQ government in Quebec would be make things more difficult. Issues of how the Tories were going to deal with the province would be out in the forefront. They'd have to have a federalist response. Would that be checkbook federalism? Would that be a hardline? Soft? Ignoring the problem?

The Conservatives could have a large problem on their hands and a renewed and invigorated fight with the BQ in the House and on the ground in an election.

The Liberals would also have problems as well but this has to be the nightmare scenario for someone like Harper who feels he is so close to a majority.

[geoffrey]

The PQ in a minority situation will have very little means to push their agenda. I don't think they are the threat that you make them out to be, or that they make themselves out to be. If it's really close, will the Lt. Governor ask the PLQ or ADQ to form government as the PQ simply won't be able to advance an agenda.

[jdobbin]

The PQ in a minority situation will have very little means to push their agenda. I don't think they are the threat that you make them out to be, or that they make themselves out to be. If it's really close, will the Lt. Governor ask the PLQ or ADQ to form government as the PQ simply won't be able to advance an agenda.

They will have lots of federal cash, a provincial Liberal party that might want to put Charest's head in a noose and a Mario Dumont who may or may not support the separatist agenda if pushed.

[August1991]

The PQ in a minority situation will have very little means to push their agenda.

I agree.

If Boisclair is PM, this will be a PQ minority government with at most 35% of the popular vote. Boisclair has said that he will hold a referendum. The ADQ and Liberals should indulge him and vote in favour of the legislation. Let the National Assembly vote unanimously to hold a referendum, whatever the question.

----

When you say "PQ Wins", what do you mean?

This will be a minority government. Whether the PQ or PLQ get the most seats, that's irrelevant . Dumont will have to decide who to support and so who will be PM.

In many ways, I think Dumont should support Boisclair and a PQ government. Dumont will possibly do this if the PQ wins more seats than the PLQ.

Keep in mind. The PQ doesn't want to win an election; it wants to win a referendum.

They will have lots of federal cash, a provincial Liberal party that might want to put Charest's head in a noose and a Mario Dumont who may or may not support the separatist agenda if pushed.

And everyone will know that Boisclair got fewer votes than any PQ PM.

[geoffrey]

PM of Quebec isn't proper in English, it's a French only thing. It's usage is a little confusing.

[jdobbin]

When you say "PQ Wins", what do you mean?

This will be a minority government. Whether the PQ or PLQ get the most seats, that's irrelevant . Dumont will have to decide who to support and so who will be PM.

In many ways, I think Dumont should support Boisclair and a PQ government. Dumont will possibly do this if the PQ wins more seats than the PLQ.

Keep in mind. The PQ doesn't want to win an election; it wants to win a referendum.

And everyone will know that Boisclair got fewer votes than any PQ PM.

When I say "wins", I mean they become the government.

I know that if there is a minority government that a PQ government won't have total control of when they go to the next election. Let's just say that it is probably a year or so until the Liberals decide whether to support a vote to take them down. That's plenty of time to cause trouble.

It also means the Conservatives in Ottawa have to develop a response to a separatist government.

This, of course, is only if the PQ wins.

[August1991]

It also means the Conservatives in Ottawa have to develop a response to a separatist government.

Maybe. But at present it'll be a weakened "separatist" government.

Society means living with others. Civilized society means living with people who you consider "idiots".

Canada excels in having a civilized society and alongside glaciers having exposed our natural resources, I consider our natural civility a great force.

If Canada is one of the richest countries in the world (GDP per capita), it's not because of the competence of our federal civil servants or politicians. It's because ordinary Canadians have a natural desire to respect sensible rules, pay taxes and calm their wrath. We generally don't fight unless the fight is deliberated. Canadians - whatever their family name or religion - are not famous for suicide bombs.

Then agaion, while English Canadians are usually decent, they have never fully respected the civilized French Canadians they live with. Englsih Canadians view French Canadians as somehow inferior. Yet, how many countries could decide their existence by referendum with a decimal point deciding the result - all without violence? Who is civilized?

If Americans should appreciate the Canadians to their north, English Canadians should appreciate the Quebecois with whom they share a country.

I dislike anti-Americanism. I also dislike Quebec-bashing.

[jdobbin]

Maybe. But at present it'll be a weakened "separatist" government.

Society means living with others. Civilized society means living with people who you consider "idiots".

Canada excels in having a civilized society and alongside glaciers having exposed our natural resources, I consider our natural civility a great force.

If Canada is one of the richest countries in the world (GDP per capita), it's not because of the competence of our federal civil servants or politicians. It's because ordinary Canadians have a natural desire to respect sensible rules, pay taxes and calm their wrath.

While English Canadians are usually decent, they have never fully respected the civilized French Canadians they live with. How many countries could decide their existence by referendum with a decimal point deciding the result - all without violence?

If Americans should appreciate the Canadians to their north, Canadians should appreciate the Quebecois with whom they share a country.

I dislike anti-Americanism. I also dislike Quebec-bashing.

You'll have to see what Harper will do if it comes to pass that the PQ are elected. He is already playing the tough guy and Charest is already distancing himself.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

One thing is clear: It will not be business as usual in Ottawa with a PQ government. And all that money that Harper has designated for Quebec could be used by the PQ to make itself more popular and set up demands for more money. Checkbook federalism rarely works for very long.

[geoffrey]

I also dislike Quebec-bashing.

I have a profound respect for Quebec culture and I'm a major fan of the City of Montreal in particular, have definitely had alot of good times there. I just don't think the RoC has an obligation to financially support "different." If Quebec wants to do their own thing, have at it, but pay for it yourselves. Quebec gets a disproportionate share of cash and attention from Ottawa.

Just as pointing out that American's for example shouldn't have closed their borders to Canadian beef is clearly not anti-Americanism, pointing out that Quebec gets far too much and needs to be reined in fiscally isn't Quebec bashing.

I'd also hardly call Quebec's quest for sovereignty violence free. Maybe in really recent times.

[Remiel]

August, are we to take it as a matter of faith that the average Quebec sovereignist has more respect for English Canadians than the average English Canadian has for French Canadians? There are complete jackasses on both sides.

[Wilber]

Then agaion, while English Canadians are usually decent, they have never fully respected the civilized French Canadians they live with. Englsih Canadians view French Canadians as somehow inferior.

I disagree, I think they respect Quebec for its ability to manipulate federal governments. Rather than regarding them as inferior, they regard them as a pain in the ass.

[Borg]

Rather than regarding them as inferior, they regard them as a pain in the ass.

Probably the understatement of the year.

Borg

[Michael Bluth]

Even if the PQ gets a plurality of seats they won't be able to govern effectively.

An ADQ or Liberal plurality and look for some sort of coalition.

[fellowtraveller]

I wouldn't have thought it a couple of weeks ago. It seemed that Charest had dug slowly out of the hole he was in. It also looked that the gift of a federal budget would give him some additional breathing room.

Now, I'm not so sure the PQ won't sneak in with a Liberal/ADQ split.

There are so many Quebec Tories supporting the ADQ that they might help create the circumstances that brings the PQ to power.

Harper has indicated that he doesn't like this idea at all and has said he won't play ball with a separatist party in government. Problem is that he has given them a lot of money to do what they do best: Ask for more and threaten separation.

The thoughts of a federal election in the midst of this can't be overlooked. The best time for Harper to go would appear to be now. They don't want Dion or the other parties to gain over the spring and summer for unforeseen reasons: Scandal in government, Afghanistan, recession...whatever.

A PQ government in Quebec would be make things more difficult. Issues of how the Tories were going to deal with the province would be out in the forefront. They'd have to have a federalist response. Would that be checkbook federalism? Would that be a hardline? Soft? Ignoring the problem?

The Conservatives could have a large problem on their hands and a renewed and invigorated fight with the BQ in the House and on the ground in an election.

The Liberals would also have problems as well but this has to be the nightmare scenario for someone like Harper who feels he is so close to a majority.

You are correct that the best time for Harper to go is now but for the wrong reasons. The only result that would be troublesome for the Tories is a PQ majority, and even that could be spun to Harpers favour. He is the only federal leader (other than Duceppe) who could and would come out with an unequivocal, forceful federalist hardline stance. That is a no-nonsense approach that would be noted in English Canada favourably, and also accepted in much of Quebec. The results in Quebec provincial politics are less important than the situation in the House of Commons right now.

Harper is the only one with traction and momentum. He should act now and call an election soon, no matter what happens in Quebec. It will not break his heart or his program to see a minority govt there of any stripe.

Then agaion, while English Canadians are usually decent, they have never fully respected the civilized French Canadians they live with. Englsih Canadians view French Canadians as somehow inferior

While your posts are generally interesting, this one is complete nonsense.

[August1991]

I disagree, I think they respect Quebec for its ability to manipulate federal governments. Rather than regarding them as inferior, they regard them as a pain in the ass.

That's a common view of anybody who is different. "The X's always whine more/throw their weight around and get a bigger piece of the pie." (I once invented the First August1991 Rule of Intercultural Relations: "When two people of different cultures/languages meet for the first time, they will invariably step away afterwards thinking that the other person is a complete idiot." I have seen this rule confirmed in different contexts.)

Entire continents have obsessed on this to the point of stopping all productive activity while they try to correct the perceived injustice.

Wilber, I will add that Anne Coulter's perception of Canada is not unlike your perception of Quebec. My answer to the Anne Coulters of this world is to note that Americans should appreciate (rather than denigrate) their neighbours on this continent. Americans could have Nazi Germans or Maoist Chinese for neighbours. Instead, Canadians are one thing Americans don't have to worry about in this crazy world.

Similarly, English-Canadians should appreciate the civilized neighbours fate has made them share a country with.

Anyone who has had to share an apartment with a roommate-from-hell knows what I'm talking about.

August, are we to take it as a matter of faith that the average Quebec sovereignist has more respect for English Canadians than the average English Canadian has for French Canadians? There are complete jackasses on both sides.

Jackasses on both sides, absolutely.

But they're jackasses in their own way. In general, people in Quebec know and understand more about English-Canada than the other way around. I'm not sure if this makes a big difference. Some separatists are anti-English in the same way that some English-Canadians are anti-American.

For myself, I wouldn't mind having a slightly different fence to separate the property but I don't know if we can get an agreement on how to build it.

[Wilber]

Similarly, English-Canadians should appreciate the civilized neighbours fate has made them share a country with.

Who said you are uncivilized? By making an issue of it you are intimating English Canadians are not. I don't have anything against French Canadians but still think Quebec is a pain in the ass.

[Michael Bluth]

A PQ plurality is very, very unlikely at this point.

Most likely is a Liberal minority, followed by an ADQ minority.

Either way they work together and no PQ government...

[August1991]

Who said you are uncivilized? By making an issue of it you are intimating English Canadians are not. I don't have anything against French Canadians but still think Quebec is a pain in the ass.

If that was your impression, it wasn't my intimation.

IME, English-Canadians are a rather boring, staid lot but eminiently civilized.

Both sides (and yes, I know there are more than two sides to this story) should take credit for living together in relative peace for about 250 years. [speaking of which, it will soon be the 250th anniversary of the battle of the Plains of Abraham.]

Alot has gone in that time, some good, some bad, but despite being so different, we have managed to avoid killing each other. In my various travels abroad, I have always explained Quebec by saying that it is a civil war of newspaper headlines. We can all take credit for that.

Quebec? "Pain in the ass"? If pushed, some in Quebec would describe "the English" as épais (or thick).

These are just words. I'm sure more than one Canadian tonight has had a chat with his neighbour, gone home, closed the door and told his wife: "What a jerk that guy is."

----

Getting back to the title of this thread, anyone interested in Canadian politics should take note of the following:

Le chef péquiste, André Boisclair, croit tout à fait possible de former une nouvelle coalition avec Mario Dumont en vue d'organiser un troisième référendum sur la souveraineté.

...

Comme il l'a fait à maintes reprises depuis le début de la campagne, le chef adéquiste a rejeté catégoriquement, samedi, l'appel du pied lancé par son adversaire péquiste en faveur d'un référendum sur la souveraineté.

Link

(I know that it's very frustrating when people talk about you or your country in a language that you don't understand. But life is filled with such confusing experiences even if different languages aren't the cause.)

Boisclair has invited Dumont to form a coalition after the election so that the two can hold a referendum on Quebec sovereignty. Dumont categorically refuses to do that.

In fact, it would probably be to Dumont's political advantage to go along with a PQ scheme to hold a referendum. Under Boisclair, the referendum would lose and that would be the end of that for a generation or two.

Instead, in response, Dumont has stated that he wants "Quebec to affirm itself within Canada".

If the PQ wins and forms a minority government, and Dumont offers support in the National Assembly for a government to do what an ordinary government should do, it's going to be a very strange beast.

I don't know how the soixante-seizards will accept the insult.

[Wilber]

Quebec? "Pain in the ass"? If pushed, some in Quebec would describe "the English" as épais (or thick).

These are just words. I'm sure more than one Canadian tonight has had a chat with his neighbour, gone home, closed the door and told his wife: "What a jerk that guy is."

With one exception, the ROC isn't continually threatening to take itself out of Confederation if it doesn't get its way. Hence a pain in the ass. I'm just calling it the way I see it and from the lack of contradiction I am getting on that statement (except from you), I don't think it is far off the mark when it comes to what people really think. Again, I don't believe the majority of English Canadians regard French Canadians to be inferior as you have stated.

[Michael Bluth]

Very interesting. The Quebeckers on the QP panel both predicted a BQ minority. Some pollster and a writer for Le Devoir

[August1991]

With one exception, the ROC isn't continually threatening to take itself out of Confederation if it doesn't get its way. Hence a pain in the ass. I'm just calling it the way I see it and from the lack of contradiction I am getting on that statement (except from you), I don't think it is far off the mark when it comes to what people really think. Again, I don't believe the majority of English Canadians regard French Canadians to be inferior as you have stated.

Wilber, Quebec is not one person. Quebec is over 7 million people.

Please don't try to understand the collective behaviour of millions (Quebec) using the same method of understanding that you use to understand an individual around you (a child).

One child will cry to get what it wants. A school bus full of children will simply make noise. The two situations are very different and you are wrong to conclude that a noisy school bus wants you to give them some chocolate. If one kid is noisy, it's because he/she probably wants something. If a bunch of kids are noisy, it's because, well, a bunch of kids are noisy.

There are millions of Quebecers who want to be rid of this thing called Canada. They want to be independent and have a separate country. They are not negotiating anything with Canada except a wish to leave.

Jacques Parizeau is not a pain in the ass. He wants out and he'd be the easiest guy to negotiate with. He's as frustrated (even moreso) with the situation as you are.

----

I happen to think that many English Canadian view French Canadians as inferior. Why? Many English Canadians view the millions of French Canadians as a single person - immature Joe Quebec - who is complaining to get more.

It never occurs to English Canadians that what you see is millions of Quebecers who want out of Canada while several million other Quebecers want to stay in Canada. This is no organized good cop, bad cop routine. There are millions involved. The debate is genuine and heartfelt.

Quebec? You are witnessing a particularly noisy school bus. Would a school bus driver ever believe that she has one spoiled brat in the back making all that noise to get what he wants?

[Wilber]

It never occurs to English Canadians that what you see is millions of Quebecers who want out of Canada while several million other Quebecers want to stay in Canada. This is no organized good cop, bad cop routine. There are millions involved. The debate is genuine and heartfelt.

We do understand it and have to put up with it without having a say while Quebecers dick around with the future of our country. Hence a continual pain in the ass. When are you going to understand that.

[August1991]

It never occurs to English Canadians that what you see is millions of Quebecers who want out of Canada while several million other Quebecers want to stay in Canada. This is no organized good cop, bad cop routine. There are millions involved. The debate is genuine and heartfelt.

We do understand it and have to put up with it without having a say while Quebecers dick around with the future of our country. Hence a continual pain in the ass. When are you going to understand that.

Well, at least I've got you to understand that this is not some effort to get money out of English Canada.

You now seem to understand that this is a particularly loud dispute in the neighbour's family.

Do Quebecers dick around with the future of "your" country? I would hope that Canadians will continue to "dick around" with the future of "their" country for as long as my great-grandchildren and their offspring live.

Canada would die if people stopped caring. And a Canada where everyone agreed would be a dead Canada.

When you refer to "pain in the ass" now, I get the impression that you are just complaining about your neighbour the jerk. If you don't like him, go live all alone on a small South Pacific island.

IOW, your complaint is really about living with others in society. IMV, one of the strengths of Canadian society is that it forces individuals to face squarely the differences of "the others".

[Wilber]

You're' damn right you're are dicking around with this country's future. The ROC has no say in this. We just have to sit around and put up with Quebec's navel gazing ad infinitum.

August, I would just like Quebec to make up its mind whether it wants to make a commitment to this country or not. What other country in the world would have the patience to put up with continual referendums on its own future where 80% of the population doesn't get to participate? Make up your mind, s___t or get off the pot so to speak because the record is getting very old and tiresome.

[August1991]

August, I would just like Quebec to make up its mind whether it wants to make a commitment to this country or not. What other country in the world would have the patience to put up with continual referendums on its own future where 80% of the population doesn't get to participate? Make up your mind, s___t or get off the pot so to speak because the record is getting very old and tiresome.

Wilber, there are seven million Quebecers. Millions have made up their mind. About a million want out.

There are three million BCers. About a million want a socialist, tree-hugging society.

What are you or I supposed to do? We live with it.