Abolish All Minimum Wage Legislation

[August1991]

Are you deaf or just dumb? Why do you insist on twisting the meaning of my words? When did I say that the labour market is inefficient?

Neither of you make much sense at all. In a "normal free market economy" minimum wages would not be necessary - the market would provide optimum levels of salaries and the market would serve its purpose - to the benefit of society. Minimum wages are necessary because perfectly efficient free markets are fiction. In the real world, many markets aren't very efficient at all - like in that small town (there are plenty of them in Canada btw, you don't have to live in one to know it).

Saturn, I didn't take up your point that markets can provide "optimal" wages - but what if that optimal wage is too low for subsistence? IOW, rather than rely on an "inefficient market" hypothesis, why not argue in favour of government intervention assuming that basic economic theory holds generally true?

I happen to think Canada would be a better country if we abolished minimum wage laws, let people negotiate wages freely and then if some wages are deemed too low because some workers' "optimum wage" is not sufficient for a decent standard of living, we could top these up through the tax system.

This would be better than our current system where politicians arbitrarily believe they can ignore basic market principles and fix prices. IOW, you and I seem to share a desire to help working people with low incomes. It's obvious to me if it isn't to you that minimum wage laws are not a good way to achieve that goal. From Montreal, I can drive directly to New York or I can take a route around Lake Ontario to New York. In either case, I'll get to New York but one trip will take much longer.

As to your argument about small towns, then let municipalities pass minimum wage laws. If wages are "sub-optimal" as you argue, then such laws will be, as economists say, "welfare-improving".

Are you concerned that the Waltons barely make ends meet on $100 billion bucks? You got a billion bucks and you aren't happy that minimum wages are reducing your profits? What is it? Or you're being paid too much? Hell, do you even work?

Dunno. Are you upset that there are people in Africa who manage on $100 per year whereas someone in Canada on welfare can get over $12,000 once we factor in all the advatages?

[madmax]

It is an easy sell for a politician

Like the GST cut, only not as popular nor that easy of a sell to the public.

-- as evidenced by this thread. In several places throughout this thread, the basic injustice of minimum wage has been clarified yet it still has its defenders.

That is correct. I defend the minimum wage, and understand its effects. There are other ways to do better, but no government in North America has tried anything different. I don't support the elimination of the minimum wage without any other accompanying legislation to address the problem.

Look at the Minimum wage $10 thread Poll and it shows that it is not popular but in the minority of popular opinion.

[madmax]

I happen to think Canada would be a better country if we abolished minimum wage laws, let people negotiate wages freely and then if some wages are deemed too low because some workers' "optimum wage" is not sufficient for a decent standard of living, we could top these up through the tax system.

There isn't a political party that advocates this in Canada.

This would be better than our current system where politicians arbitrarily believe they can ignore basic market principles and fix prices. IOW, you and I seem to share a desire to help working people with low incomes.

Obviously the Market Principles weren't working before the creation of the Minimum wage. Politicians have been arbitrarily doing this for over 130 years around the globe.

You have suggested bargaining, and a tax revision. Collective Bargaining within the region, will create the market wage. This could still be topped up by the government through taxation, if to low, however the possibilities of this happening will be less.

[madmax]

Are you upset that there are people in Africa who manage on $100 per year whereas someone in Canada on welfare can get over $12,000 once we factor in all the advatages?

Free Markets aren't working in Africa very well.

[blueblood]

Are you upset that there are people in Africa who manage on $100 per year whereas someone in Canada on welfare can get over $12,000 once we factor in all the advatages?

Free Markets aren't working in Africa very well.

They're working exceptionally well in Ireland.

[madmax]

They're working exceptionally well in Ireland.

Good, Here is Ireland Minimum Wage increase recommendation for 2007

Minister for Labour Affairs Tony Killeen, T.D. on Thursday Nov. 29, received the Labour Court’s recommendation on the national minimum hourly rate of pay. The Labour Court has recommended that the minimum hourly rate of pay should be increased to €8.30 per hour with effect from 1 January 2007 and €8.65 with effect from 1 July, 2007.

The proposed increased amounts to 13% overall and the ESRI have been requested by the Government to give its views on the proposal.

In their most recent survey on the impact of the minimum wage, the ESRI estimate that 5.2% (or c. 70,500) of those employed in private sector non-agricultural firms are earning the minimum wage.

30,000 or 2.2% on sub-minimum rates

+ 40,500 or 3.00% on actual minimum

= 70,500 or 5.2% on minimum wage

The percentage of workers on the national minimum wage has reduced substantially from 21% in 1999 to 5.2% in 2005/6. The total workforce is 2,073,300.

The % affected by minimum wage is in the same neighbourhood as here.

[blueblood]

They're working exceptionally well in Ireland.

Good, Here is Ireland Minimum Wage increase recommendation for 2007

Minister for Labour Affairs Tony Killeen, T.D. on Thursday Nov. 29, received the Labour Court’s recommendation on the national minimum hourly rate of pay. The Labour Court has recommended that the minimum hourly rate of pay should be increased to €8.30 per hour with effect from 1 January 2007 and €8.65 with effect from 1 July, 2007.

The proposed increased amounts to 13% overall and the ESRI have been requested by the Government to give its views on the proposal.

In their most recent survey on the impact of the minimum wage, the ESRI estimate that 5.2% (or c. 70,500) of those employed in private sector non-agricultural firms are earning the minimum wage.

30,000 or 2.2% on sub-minimum rates

+ 40,500 or 3.00% on actual minimum

= 70,500 or 5.2% on minimum wage

The percentage of workers on the national minimum wage has reduced substantially from 21% in 1999 to 5.2% in 2005/6. The total workforce is 2,073,300.

The % affected by minimum wage is in the same neighbourhood as here.

Now did their minimum wage come before or after their boom? Eastern Europe is starting to kick off and they have very low wages.

[madmax]

Double post deleted

[madmax]

Now did their minimum wage come before or after their boom? Eastern Europe is starting to kick off and they have very low wages.

Oh yeah, ask me seconds after I close the website without bookmarking it. IIRC, they implemented Minimum Wage in 2000. But this from Wiki.

Ireland's minimum wage was introduced in 2000, and is currently €8.30 (~US$10.80) an hour. This is subject to reduction as follows:

30% reduction for all employees under 18

20% reduction for employees over 18 in their first year of employment in any job since they turned 18

10% reduction for employees over 18 in their second year of employment in any job since they turned 18

It may further be reduced by up to €7.73 a day if lodgings or food are provided as part of a job.[9] Due to general difficulties in finding employees, most jobs pay above the minimum wage, with only 3.1% of employees receiving it in 2004.[10]

In July 2007, the minimum wage in Ireland will rise to €8.65 (~US$11.25) per hour. This was announced in the 2007 Irish Budget

So I don't know how you are going to argue this. That having centuries without a minimum wage did nothing, or that by having a growing economy, they thought, nows the time to have a minimum? Regardless it will be higher than any in Canada.

Which really puts the argument to an end. Ireland has a growing economy, their economic masters now, brilliant people, I have thread upon thread of Ireland this and Ireland that, and they are putting their minimum wage up higher than any Province or Federal jurisdiction in Canada.

[August1991]

Are you upset that there are people in Africa who manage on $100 per year whereas someone in Canada on welfare can get over $12,000 once we factor in all the advatages?

Free Markets aren't working in Africa very well.

Unfortunately, Africa doesn't have the institutions reqiuired for free markets to work: definition and respect for private property and functioning contract law.

Worse, over the past 50 years, rich countries have shovelled billions of dollars to corrupt regimes and sent thousands if not millions of "government advisors".

IOW, we have used the same philosophy to help Africans that lies beneath minimum wage legislation. In Africa, this has been catastrophic. In rich countries such as Canada, this has merely been sad and wasteful.

----

I started this thread because I think the Left really must learn how to advocate its basic principles much, much better. I assume Leftists want to help people who start life with less than others. Minimum wage laws don't achieve that worthy goal.

[blueblood]

So I don't know how you are going to argue this. That having centuries without a minimum wage did nothing, or that by having a growing economy, they thought, nows the time to have a minimum? Regardless it will be higher than any in Canada.

A combination of an extremely low corporate tax rate combined with low wages was what kicked off the Irish economy, Wiki clearly states that. The min. wage was probably brought in due to pressure from who knows what saying that "oh we're awash in money, let's cut into profits and bankroll the poor. It also states in Wiki that with these high wages, there is outsourcing to eastern european countries. Read the entire article in Wiki under the Celtic Tiger. They shouldn't have touched the min. wage because if there ever becomes a recession trouble is coming. They're economic masters because they dropped the corporate rate and provided cheap labour to foreign investment.

[August1991]

So I don't know how you are going to argue this. That having centuries without a minimum wage did nothing, or that by having a growing economy, they thought, nows the time to have a minimum? Regardless it will be higher than any in Canada.

Which really puts the argument to an end. Ireland has a growing economy, their economic masters now, brilliant people, I have thread upon thread of Ireland this and Ireland that, and they are putting their minimum wage up higher than any Province or Federal jurisdiction in Canada.

The comparison between Ireland and Canada is meaningless. You have given stats showing that in both cases only a few workers (about 2%) are affected. In fact, the cost to society of minimum wage laws don't show up in statistics: it is the non-existent jobs that bear the burden.

As to the absolute value of the minimum wage, that comparison makes about as much sense as comparing house prices in Montreal and Dublin.

[madmax]

Unfortunately, Africa doesn't have the institutions reqiuired for free markets to work: definition and respect for private property and functioning contract law.

Actually they do. Along with corruption. This corruption extends to the governments whom are the puppets of the corporations. Just test these concepts of private property and contract law with regards to diamond mines and oil. Africa is a rich continent.

Worse, over the past 50 years, rich countries have shovelled billions of dollars to corrupt regimes and sent thousands if not millions of "government advisors".

Almost as bad as the IMF in South America. Now the only sucker for that institution is Turkey.

Wow, what if that read, the only sucker for that Turkey is Turkey?

IOW, we have used the same philosophy to help Africans that lies beneath minimum wage legislation. In Africa, this has been catastrophic. In rich countries such as Canada, this has merely been sad and wasteful.

Ever worked in Africa? I think we all tend to minimize many problems there.

----

I started this thread because I think the Left really must learn how to advocate its basic principles much, much better. I assume Leftists want to help people who start life with less than others. Minimum wage laws don't achieve that worthy goal.

It is only Socialist countries that don't have a minimum wage IIRC. Alberta has been Governed by the "right for what 70 years? Are you asking for some new socialist government to come in and fix Alberta?

Just because there are other ideas, doesn't mean that you blame some mystical "left" for it not getting done.

Conservatives and Liberals have governed since confederation, and nearly every Province they have had a chance at governing as well. So where is the tax reform, that is accepted by the economists of all stripes?

Conservative/Liberal/NDP/SC/PQ governments have not been able to let the market dictate wages. They have accepted minimum wages in every Province they have governed.

If you consider Conservatives to be "Right" then blame them. If you want a Euro Socialist Solution, then join the Socialist NDP and tell them to "Turn Left" instead of status quo. If you think the Liberals will do something, check the wind direction.

[madmax]

The comparison between Ireland and Canada is meaningless.

Pretty much. But Blue blood brought them into the discussion.

As to the absolute value of the minimum wage, that comparison makes about as much sense as comparing house prices in Montreal and Dublin.

I agree.

Therefore, the only thing to compare is abolishing the minimum wage.

Ireland has joined the club to have a minimum wage. Just the opposite of this thread.

[blueblood]

The comparison between Ireland and Canada is meaningless.

Pretty much. But Blue blood brought them into the discussion.

As to the absolute value of the minimum wage, that comparison makes about as much sense as comparing house prices in Montreal and Dublin.

I agree.

Therefore, the only thing to compare is abolishing the minimum wage.

Ireland has joined the club to have a minimum wage. Just the opposite of this thread.

After their boom. That's my point. I can assure you that if the companies were going to have to pay 8.65 euros an hour off the gun, all those companies would be investing elsewhere.

[August1991]

Warning: Thread drift ahead.

Unfortunately, Africa doesn't have the institutions reqiuired for free markets to work: definition and respect for private property and functioning contract law.

Actually they do....

Actually they don't.

I completely agree that Africa is a remarkably rich continent but unfortunately no one clearly owns anything and it is even less clear how to sell it. To look at Africa today is to look into the past and see how all human relations worked several thousand years ago. There was an absence of a respected legal code for ownership and for transfer of private property.

Unfortunately, many (North American) Leftists still don't believe in private property. These Leftists still think that poverty exists because rich, greedy people steal unfairly from others.

[August1991]

Conservative/Liberal/NDP/SC/PQ governments have not been able to let the market dictate wages. They have accepted minimum wages in every Province they have governed.

By and large, Leftist governments raise minimum wages. Conservative governments let minimum wages (in real terms) fall through inflation.

As I noted, it is easy for a politician to raise the minimum wage. It costs the government nothing. This is an "off budget" social measure.

Why does a government adopt a measure that is costly to society and doesn't even achieve what is intended? Heck. I dunno. But it sadly happens. Maybe we could avoid these errors if advocates of the measure understood better how to achieve their true goal.

Leftists should argue in favour of helping the working poor instead of defending such measures as a minimum wage.

[Keepitsimple]

It sounds so caring - let's raise the minimum wage and help those less fortunate attain some dignity. As with any broad policy, political knuckleheads like Jack Layton and The Star should first ask the question.....who would really be helped by raising the minimum wage to $10? The answer can be found in the following statistics, excerpted from an article by Christina Bilizzard:

Figures from StatsCan make some interesting points. According to 2005 data, 50% of minimum wage earners are aged 15-19 and 17% are 20-24. Not surprisingly, 65% of minimum wage earners live with their parents. Only 6.5% are their family's major income earner.

So.....is that really what we want to do - give all the kids a raise? I don't think so. I'm sure we'll find a better way to target those who really need help.

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...694567-sun.html

[Saturn]

Leftists should argue in favour of helping the working poor instead of defending such measures as a minimum wage.

And what's you suggestion on how to do that? Abolish minimum wages, make them pay for schooling and privatize health care so they can't get any?

[Charles Anthony]

And what's you suggestion on how to do that?

Easy: if the poor lack money, give them money.

Abolish minimum wages, make them pay for schooling and privatize health care so they can't get any?

No. That is what I would do.

[Saturn]

No. That is what I would do.

Until you ended up with a condition or were in an accident that left you unable to do your job.

[Charles Anthony]

Until you ended up with a condition or were in an accident that left you unable to do your job.

-- and then what? Moral relativism will magically make minimum wage legislation the delusional pancea of all socialist problems?

[madmax]

Warning: Thread drift ahead.

Thanks, four wheel drive is turned on.

Actually they don't.

DOH!!!

I completely agree that Africa is a remarkably rich continent but unfortunately no one clearly owns anything and it is even less clear how to sell it. To look at Africa today is to look into the past and see how all human relations worked several thousand years ago. There was an absence of a respected legal code for ownership and for transfer of private property.

Well, we will both have to be right, as I know what you are implying. However, there has been colonialism for centuries, and there has been ownership, and private property. Yet the scenario you provide exists.

Unfortunately, many (North American) Leftists still don't believe in private property.

Any on this forum? Maybe we can smoke em out.

These Leftists still think that poverty exists because rich, greedy people steal unfairly from others.

Really?

[madmax]

Conservative/Liberal/NDP/SC/PQ governments have not been able to let the market dictate wages. They have accepted minimum wages in every Province they have governed.

By and large, Leftist governments raise minimum wages. Conservative governments let minimum wages (in real terms) fall through inflation.

You have acknowledged that Conservatives have not let the market dictate wages. That they have been in power since 1971 in Alberta and no effort has been made to remove the minimum wage. A one party Conservative Province. Conservative Governments in Alberta have raised the minimum wage. It has not remained stagnat since 1971.

those "leftists" Conservatives.

Maybe we could avoid these errors if advocates of the measure understood better how to achieve their true goal.

You are repeating yourself. Like I said, if you want to implement Euro Socialist Policies in Canada, find a Political Party that supports them.

Leftists should argue in favour of helping the working poor instead of defending such measures as a minimum wage.

The minimum wage isn't abolished in any "Conservative" Province. I think you are trying to blame the mythical "leftists" for your own governments inaction to help the working poor.

Stop trying to blame the boogey man for a historical reality. The minimum wage has been adopted by all parties in every province, and by virtually every country in the world EXCEPT those that you consider

"LEFTIST"

So, only the "Leftists" have managed to abolish the minimum wage.

Great argument.