Canadians Paying for Our Own Brainwashing Propaganda

[Catchme]

Now isn't this special, we are now paying for ourselves to be propagandized so that we agree to war.

To sell Canada on war, try `hope' but not `liberty'

Focus groups advised Harper not to echo Bush

Feb 17, 2007 04:30 AM

Allan Woods

Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWA–The Conservative government has been "too American" in its attempts to justify the Afghan war to a skeptical Canadian public, according to an internal report commissioned by the Department of Foreign Affairs. The extensive critique of the Tory communications strategy on the war comes from a series of cross-country focus groups conducted in November 2006 at a cost of almost $76,000.

The study, obtained by the Toronto Star, found that Prime Minister Stephen Harper was "echoing" U.S. President George W. Bush in his attempt to explain why Canadian soldiers are fighting and dying in the country's southern province. Harper has drawn a link between the NATO-led mission and the 24 Canadians who were killed in the collapse of New York's World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor recently described the fight as "retribution" for the terrorist attacks.

The NDP, for example, frequently points out the mission is unbalanced because the government spends $9 on combat efforts for every $1 on development."

"The fact that they would spend $76,000 to try and get arguments to sell the war in Afghanistan to the Canadian public ... really indicates that the war is not saleable," said NDP defence critic Dawn Black (New Westminster-Coquitlam).

"To spend that kind of money just to counter the kinds of arguments that the opposition ... are putting forward is bizarre."

In November 2003, Auditor General Sheila Fraser called the previous Liberal government to account for buying polls – in contravention of government policy – that monitored party image, voting intentions and approval ratings of political leaders.

The Tory communications problems are compounded by "a general perception that this government is already closely aligned with the U.S. on other fronts," the report states.

So, they are wasting our tax dollars on trying to find ways to "sell" us a war we do not want to be involved in, but they want us to be, even though we have NO reason to be and they full well know it.

And so much for Harper yelling accountability, look at him doing something even worse that what Sheila Fraser condemned the Liberals for.

Shame!

[geoffrey]

Already posted here: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=8110

No need to have two different silly spins on the same deal.

[B. Max]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

[Catchme]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

It seems that that thread got all side tracked away from the topic at hand for some reasom, and looks like it is beyond repair.

Revealing Harper 's actions of spending tax dollars trying to sell us the war in Afghanistan is not propaganda, the propaganda in this equation is Harper's, that he paid 76k for from tax payers dollars. That is the height of arrogance.

If this would've been the Liberals, the apologists for Harper, and indeed Harper himself would'been screaming for weeks. Oh, in fact he did, in 2003 when Sheila Fraser, scolded the Liberals for commissioning polls about themselves from tax payers dollars and told them not to do such things as it is a breech of public trust and monies. The same holds here, in an even greater capacity.

What's capitalism, or anti-capitalism got to do with Afghanistan? That comment makes NO sense.

Neither does the anti-American comment, as Harper was told from his well paid "focus groups" to stop being Bush, as ALL Canadians did not like it.

So, apparently the apologists for Bush are well into the minority figures in Canada, and they, including Harper thought/think Canadians think like them, we do not, and there is not a thing wrong with being against Bush, 85% of his own country is even.

It is a terrible thing when people are so partisian, they willingly allow themselves to be lead by false conduct and words, garnered from tax payer funded focus groups.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now geoffery how about actually debating the points/topic instead of labelling it with a personal opinion, that is partisian to the nth degree.

How about some honesty in reflection of what you would say had the Liberals undertaken such a thing?

[Who's Doing What?]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

Yep go ahead and slap a label or two on anyone who disagrees with you. Makes it much easier to dismiss them that way. Such a lame tactic.

[PolyNewbie]

B Max:More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

The American government is anti capitalist. Thats why they deregulated banks and allow all these big mergers. They are marxists.

John D Rockefeller once said "competition is a sin". Rockefellers own and operate the USA.

The Americans have been going to war with people oriented governments to put corrupt dictators in place. Name a corrupt dictator that wasn't put into power by the Americans. They do this so that the dictator can be paid off to bring the banks in - which have a monopoly on money creation.

See Confessions Of An Economic Hit Man by John Perkins.

[PolyNewbie]

Catchme:Now isn't this special, we are now paying for ourselves to be propagandized so that we agree to war.

You pay for your courses in economics in university don't you ? Price is not really equal to some constant multiplied by the ratio of Demand/Supply yet people pay good money to learn that.

Paying for our own propoganda is nothing new.

[margrace]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

Here's goes the American Flag B.Max, got your hand over your heart?

[madmax]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

There is nothing unusual for government to retailor it's language to meet its audience. The Conservative Language was creating negative feedback. Now that the study is out of the bag, the opposition are having a field day with it.

The study was a waste of money.

Just like these 2 threads are a similar waste of time.

[Argus]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

Yep go ahead and slap a label or two on anyone who disagrees with you. Makes it much easier to dismiss them that way. Such a lame tactic.

Slapping a label on you people is the easy part. It's keeping down the chortling and snickering while reading what passes for thought on the left that's difficult.

There are about a half dozen loony lefties on this site (half of whom have already posted to this thread) who post material that is worthy of little more than mockery and ridicule.

[Who's Doing What?]

Slapping a label on you people is the easy part. It's keeping down the chortling and snickering while reading what passes for thought on the left that's difficult.

There are about a half dozen loony lefties on this site (half of whom have already posted to this thread) who post material that is worthy of little more than mockery and ridicule.

Oh yes that's right I'm, such a "lefty fanatic". Go check out the politcal test thread. I'll get you some salt for your crow.

Your air of superiority is fooling no one but yourself.

[madmax]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

There are about a half dozen loony lefties on this site (half of whom have already posted to this thread) who post material that is worthy of little more than mockery and ridicule.

B. Max is a Separatists IRC.

[Catchme]

More propaganda from the anti American anti capitalist crowd.

There is nothing unusual for government to retailor it's language to meet its audience. The Conservative Language was creating negative feedback. Now that the study is out of the bag, the opposition are having a field day with it.

The study was a waste of money.

You are quite correct there is nothing unusal about government retooling its words use, however, this is not quite the same thing is it?

This is the purchasing of focus groups perceptions to try and sell WAR to Canadians.

They used Canadian tax dollars to fund the research for their personal agenda propaganda campaign, again unusual, and as I said Sheila Fraser condemned the Liberals for doing much less in her report of 2003.

Not only is trying to market war wrong, Harper and the CPC again show astounding hypocrisy, and prove they are willing to go well beyond that of what the Liberals did.

[Canadian Blue]

The whole thing was a waste of money. In fact I think Harper should know better than to waste taxpayer dollars on research projects which will do nothing to really help the country.

[BayLee]

Canadian Blue hates Canada

calls Canada..............

So perhaps you should stop hating them so much as they are partially the reason you're living in this pathetic little country

[Canadian Blue]

How could I hate Canada, I wear a Canadian uniform.

We are a pathetic country, because in general we take everything we have for granted. I think many would agree, if we are such a great country why do we still have poverty, global warming, and violence. Most people don't care as long as they make enough money to buy an iPod. As well I think when we look at our nation's politician's their is very little to be inspired by, none are interested in working together, it's all simply partisanship, instead of trying to bring about a united approach.

As well you should post my entire post Baylee, as you will see were I'm coming from. My main point of contention was with the tone taken towards the people who ensure the safety of this country, and the ability for people to have the right's you have. If you love your country so much, then why do you offer nothing but hatred and ignorance towards the people who in essence safeguard the values of this country.

[Catchme]

How could I hate Canada, I wear a Canadian uniform.

We are a pathetic country, because in general we take everything we have for granted. I think many would agree, if we are such a great country why do we still have poverty, global warming, and violence...

As well you should post my entire post Baylee, as you will see were I'm coming from. My main point of contention was with the tone taken towards the people who ensure the safety of this country, and the ability for people to have the right's you have. If you love your country so much, then why do you offer nothing but hatred and ignorance towards the people who in essence safeguard the values of this country.

First off, we only know that you say you wear a uniform. And if you are in uniform and feel that Canada is pathetic, God help us, we do not need people like you in uniform representing our country.

I think a good many Canadians would disagree with you most vehemetely, actually . Moreover, you know, I hardly ever hear Canadians refer to our country as pathetic. In fact, you are the only one so far, other than a couple wanna be Americans from the extreme right of center who in habit freak dominion.

What in countries in the world do not have the things you listed that make us not so "great" Can blue? I will answer for you, NONE! That is a complete red herring that has no substance in reality. You have simply used it to try and bolster your calling Canadians and Canada pathetic.

Please, get off the band wagon that it is today's military that have ensured us the rights we have and keep us safe. Nothing could be further from the truth. And if you think, you, an alleged military person, calling us Canadians pathetic is safe guarding the values of this country you would be in error. If you are military, or actually even Canadian, then what you are exhibiting by calling Canadians pathetic, is NOT Canadian values.

[Canadian Blue]

No, I have no problem with wearing the uniform, and as far as I'm concerned everyone who I have worked with has had no problem with the job I do.

As for my comment's about Canada being pathetic, the reason behind it is because most people take everything we have for granted, it's not some "extreme right wing" comment, it's a fact. I love this country, and many of the values it represents. However I am disenchanted with the apathetic attitude many take towards this country.

In fact, you are the only one so far, other than a couple wanna be Americans from the extreme right of center who in habit freak dominion.

No not really, I mentioned the fact that many disregard the fact that we still have poverty in this country. So I can't be an extreme right wing freak since I largely agree that many of the social injustices should be solved in this country. Next accusation.

What in countries in the world do not have the things you listed that make us not so "great" Can blue? I will answer for you, NONE! That is a complete red herring that has no substance in reality. You have simply used it to try and bolster your calling Canadians and Canada pathetic.

Please, spare me the rhetoric. I never called Canadian's pathetic, what I was talking about was the apathetic attitude taken by many in this nation.

Please, get off the band wagon that it is today's military that have ensured us the rights we have and keep us safe.

Yeah, well I'm sure that those who have died in Europe didn't help in some way ensure the rights you have. If you don't recognize that those who do ensure the laws are upheld [police] and that are soveriegnty is protected [military], then I doubt we would be living in a country like Canada. I recognize that everyone has a role to play in ensuring that this country remain's the country it is today, as it has in the past. However is saying that, you should also remember that the reason that we have those things is because of the sacrifices made by others whether it be in the military, emergency services, education, social services, and government sectors.

Nothing could be further from the truth. And if you think, you, an alleged military person, calling us Canadians pathetic is safe guarding the values of this country you would be in error. The values that this military, and you are a good example, if you are military, are exhibiting are NOT Canadian values.

What values am I exhibiting that are so "un-Canadian". What are "Canadian values" anyways, what are they. I think you'll find the each individual has a different notion of "Canadian values". My values aren't the same as your values. I didn't call Canadian's pathetic, I think you went too much into what I said. My point was the apathetic attitude many take in this country. As for the pathetic line, it's more about how everyone takes everything they have for granted.

The main point was that it's so easy to bash anyone you like, and say how people should have acted differently in a situation when you are safe in your room behind a computer and rant and rave about everything wrong with somebody else. But how do you know, the other thread was a clear example of that, it is so easy to think about what you would do differently but in that situation how do you know that what you would have done.

BTW What is it about the following text that you disagree with.

We are a pathetic country, because in general we take everything we have for granted. I think many would agree, if we are such a great country why do we still have poverty, global warming, and violence. Most people don't care as long as they make enough money to buy an iPod. As well I think when we look at our nation's politician's their is very little to be inspired by, none are interested in working together, it's all simply partisanship, instead of trying to bring about a united approach.

I wouldn't say great country, however we do live in a free and democratic country and lucky to be here. But "great", no I don't think so, and I'm sure many would disagree as greatness is something that can only be brought about in rare circumstances.

Either way Catchme, bring forward the next accusation...

[Catchme]

How could I hate Canada, I wear a Canadian uniform.

We are a pathetic country, because in general we take everything we have for granted. I think many would agree, if we are such a great country why do we still have poverty, global warming, and violence.

Please, spare me the rhetoric. I never called Canadian's pathetic, what I was talking about was the apathetic attitude taken by many in this nation.

Again, Can blue, yes you did call Canada a pathetic country right here in this thread, as above, and in another one (will not go into that thread as I do not believe in dragging things from thread to thread). If Canada is pathetic, which is what you did say, ergo Canadians are pathetic, there is NO Canada without Canadians. Trying to split a hair on that one does not work.

Then you say we are not a great country because of; "poverty, global warming and violence", and you tried to say many Canadians would agree with you that we are NOT great because of those things, trying to use the good old bandwagon, to try and bolster your denigration of Canada and Canadians.. You were not speaking of apathy or taking for granted, that have "disenchanted" you.

You were speaking actual hatred towards Canada and Canadians with your use of pathetic and then saying many think like you, that canada is not great country, alluding to a fact that indeed there were other "great" countries that we should be emulating that have actually defeated those things, ergo who are not pathetic.

Changing the term pathetic to apathy does not ring true either by intent of your words or by content.

pathetic = pitifully inferior or inadequate, ABSURD, LAUGHABLE

apathy = lack of interest or concern, lack of feeling or emotion

So your saying:

However I am disenchanted with the apathetic attitude many take towards this country.

As an excuse, or word change, holds no water.

Canadians are not apathetic about our country, nor are we uncerned about it. And we definitely have strong feelings and emotions about our country. Trying to take back such a hateful term as pathetic will not work.

hate = intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING <had a great hate of hard work>

And just what are we allegedly taking for granted according to you?

Yeah, well I'm sure that those who have died in Europe didn't help in some way ensure the rights you have

Those who died in Europe in WW I and II are not the Canadian military of today, and that is what I said "today's military", I narrowly defined it for a reason, nor can I see any of them calling Canada pathetic.

If you don't recognize that those who do ensure the laws are upheld [police] and that are soveriegnty is protected [military], then I doubt we would be living in a country like Canada.

It is just not the police who uphold laws, nor do I believe the Canadian military has been protecting our sovereignty, since WWII, please do give me an example of this protection?

I recognize that everyone has a role to play in ensuring that this country remain's the country it is today, as it has in the past. However is saying that, you should also remember that the reason that we have those things is because of the sacrifices made by others whether it be in the military, emergency services, education, social services, and government sectors.

It is not I, that should remember those things, as I know full well that it is just not the police forces and the military, on the other hand perhaps you should, as you seem to give the greater credit to the military and the police, as if they were some superior entities, when this is simply not true.

What values am I exhibiting that are so "un-Canadian". What are "Canadian values" anyways, what are they. I think you'll find the each individual has a different notion of "Canadian values". My values aren't the same as your values. I didn't call Canadian's pathetic, I think you went too much into what I said. My point was the apathetic attitude many take in this country. As for the pathetic line, it's more about how everyone takes everything they have for granted.

Hey, you were the one that said the military was protecting Canadian values, and now you say you do not know what you think they are protecting?

Yes, you did call Canadians pathetic, and NO I did not go into it too much, you are simply trying to excuse your calling of Canadians pathetic.

The main point was that it's so easy to bash anyone you like, and say how people should have acted differently in a situation when you are safe in your room behind a computer and rant and rave about everything wrong with somebody else...

You just bashed ALL Canadians and Canada, it is amazing that you feel you can condemn others for what you believe they are doing.

You have no idea what people do, but you feel to condemn them for what you yourself are doing, sitting in your room behind a computer bashing ALL of Canada and Canadians at large, ranting and raving about everyone else. Pot call the kettle black.

And listen, if military personal, such as yourself allegedly, are so worried about their safety and that Canadians are not worried enough about it, because they are concerned about innocent Afghan civilians getting murdered, then they should've chosen a different career. There is absolutely NO reason for killing innocent civilians.

[Saturn]

Now isn't this special, we are now paying for ourselves to be propagandized so that we agree to war.

What's a more worthy cause to spend billions of dollars on, to have our soldiers killed and injured physically and mentally, than a pointless war half the world away. Apparently we have too much money and too many young people.

[Canadian Blue]

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Catchme, apathetic then creates a pathetic state. As I stated no country is truly "great", as every nation has its share of problems, and until a society joins together to solve them it won't be "great".

Again, Can blue, yes you did call Canada a pathetic country right here in this thread, as above, and in another one (will not go into that thread as I do not believe in dragging things from thread to thread). If Canada is pathetic, which is what you did say, ergo Canadians are pathetic, there is NO Canada without Canadians. Trying to split a hair on that one does not work.

Yes I did, but you misinterpeted it. I was mentioning the attitude by many, and you have shown it with your apathetic attitude towards those whom you disagree with as being un-Canadian simply because they don't buy into your thinking.

Then you say we are not a great country because of; "poverty, global warming and violence", and you tried to say many Canadians would agree with you that we are NOT great because of those things, trying to use the good old bandwagon, to try and bolster your denigration of Canada and Canadians.. You were not speaking of apathy or taking for granted, that have "disenchanted" you.

My denigration of Canada and Canadian's, trust me I denigrate myself all the time.

What makes a Canadian?

You were speaking actual hatred towards Canada and Canadians with your use of pathetic and then saying many think like you, that canada is not great country, alluding to a fact that indeed there were other "great" countries that we should be emulating that have actually defeated those things, ergo who are not pathetic.

I never said I hated Canada, I said Canadian's tend to be apathetic, and it's true. Who are not pathetic, I don't know, individuals who attempt to make society better.

I had this question directed to me about greatness, define what it mean's to be "great".

You were speaking actual hatred towards Canada and Canadians with your use of pathetic and then saying many think like you, that canada is not great country, alluding to a fact that indeed there were other "great" countries that we should be emulating that have actually defeated those things, ergo who are not pathetic.

No, I was mentioning the people who talk about how much they love Canada, yet do little to nothing to better society. It's similar to some of the American's who talk about how patriotic they are, yet they are never willing to sacrifice anything for their country. All talk, no action.

What I mean by sacrifice is being willing to contribute to the greater good, and also protect some of the underlying democratic values as well as ensure peace and order.

Changing the term pathetic to apathy does not ring true either by intent of your words or by content.

pathetic = pitifully inferior or inadequate, ABSURD, LAUGHABLE

apathy = lack of interest or concern, lack of feeling or emotion

So, apathy will create a pathetic state, as their is a lack of concern about things which can effect others and society as a whole.

Canadians are not apathetic about our country, nor are we uncerned about it. And we definitely have strong feelings and emotions about our country. Trying to take back such a hateful term as pathetic will not work.

How is it hateful, honestly it's one term, and to me it rings true with some of the attitudes taken by some individual's in this country.

hate = intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING <had a great hate of hard work>

And just what are we allegedly taking for granted according to you?

Everything, our planet, individuals, children, seniors, our rights and freedoms. People do take what we have for granted, to say otherwise is a complete fairy tale. I feel it is important to remember were we came from, and why we should continue to make society better.

Those who died in Europe in WW I and II are not the Canadian military of today, and that is what I said "today's military", I narrowly defined it for a reason, nor can I see any of them calling Canada pathetic.

Hey, you were the one that said the military was protecting Canadian values, and now you say you do not know what you think they are protecting?

Yes, you did call Canadians pathetic, and NO I did not go into it too much, you are simply trying to excuse your calling of Canadians pathetic.

I usually like to think the individual's inhabiting the country, and some of the democratic values that we hold in this country. Obviously your version of Canadian values are something completely different. As well I think I've proven my point about apathy since you don't really have any clue yourself what Canadian values are.

You just bashed ALL Canadians and Canada, it is amazing that you feel you can condemn others for what you believe they are doing.

You have no idea what people do, but you feel to condemn them for what you yourself are doing, sitting in your room behind a computer bashing ALL of Canada and Canadians at large, ranting and raving about everyone else. Pot call the kettle black.

No, it's towards the individual's who take everything they have for granted. As for the pathetic country bit, yeah it's not hateful. Really I've heard people make the same remark towards those who will rant and rave about everything, and it's easy to remind them that:

"In this pathetic country called Canada, you have the right to say such things only because others have sacrificed so you could say it."

It also can be used in reference to the general ignorance and apathy displayed by some individual's in this country.

Which was the point of my remark.

And listen, if military personal, such as yourself allegedly, are so worried about their safety and that Canadians are not worried enough about it, because they are concerned about innocent Afghan civilians getting murdered, then they should've chosen a different career. There is absolutely NO reason for killing innocent civilians.

No, because people have all the time in the world to think about what the soldier should have done in that situation. However the soldier only had a few seconds to think about it, or it could have been his/her life.

I'm worried about their safety, however I'm also worried about the kind of rhetoric which is being directed towards them by people who call themselves "patriotic" Canadian's in determining their attitudes towards those who serve. This could also impact their safety and wellbeing, as some people prefer to slander everyone wearing a uniform.

Either way Catchme, keep on throwing more accusations. Your free to do so because in this pathetic country called Canada you have the freedom to say whatever you want because of the sacrifices of others.

[Canadian Blue]

By the way, if anyone noticed my point was that in this country we are lucky to have the most basic freedom's due to the sacrifice of others who helped build this country.

Here is my original comment.

Baylee remember the only reason you have the ability to make the comments you do is the police who ensure law and order in Canada, and the soldiers who defend this country. So perhaps you should stop hating them so much as they are partially the reason you're living in this pathetic little country were you have so much due to the lives of others who were killed in Europe, Korea, the Balkan's, Mayerthorpe, and Afghanistan.

I referenced those two groups, due to vile attacks made against both. So if anyone considers this a hateful comment feel free to report it to Greg.

If you want to continue a debate on semantics then by all mean's go right ahead. I've already braced myself for the assault. I've been accused of being a pedophile already so this isn't really all that bad.

[Catchme]

Well, your words "pathetic little country" certainly speak for themselves.

Pathetic does not = apathy

Patriotic does not = blindly supporting the military

Criticizing the military doe snot = unpatriotic

I have made NO accusations towards you, I have taken exception to your words and your words speak for themselves. Nor did I misinterpret anything, you words stand for themselves, and nothing you have said takes away from the fact that you feel nothing but disdain for canadians and Canada.

Your never once used the term apathetic, until you were called on your calling Canada a pathetic country. There was no misinterpretation.

How do you know people are not contributing to the greater good?

You apparently feel the only way one can contribute to the greater good is to be a cop or in the military. If they are not, then accoding to you they are pathetic and have no rights to criticize, apparently because they are not contributing to the greater good, and are all talk and no action in your view. And it is a very narrow one at that if you really believe this.

Again, you were the one that keeps mentioning the fact that the military is protecting Canadian values, and I am still waiting to hear what you think Canadian values are?

Canadian deployment to the Balkans did nothing to assure our rights and freedoms, Canadian deployment to Korea did nothing to assure our rights and freedoms, Canadian deployment to Mayerthorpe did nothing to assure our rights and freedoms, and Canadian deployment to Afghanistan is doing nothing to assure our rights and freedoms. However, I do believe that WWI and II deployments actually did assure our rights and freedoms.

It was not the military that built this country, it is ludicrous to think so, it was individuals, some of whom did serve in the military, both willingly and unwillingly.

Calling you on your calling Canada a "pathetic little country", is not making accusations or assaulting you.

[Canadian Blue]

Well, your words "pathetic little country" certainly speak for themselves.

If taken out of context.

Baylee remember the only reason you have the ability to make the comments you do is the police who ensure law and order in Canada, and the soldiers who defend this country. So perhaps you should stop hating them so much as they are partially the reason you're living in this pathetic little country were you have so much due to the lives of others who were killed in Europe, Korea, the Balkan's, Mayerthorpe, and Afghanistan.

If anything the statement show's the sacrifice made to ensure those of living in this country have the ability to make such statements. I also noted how we have so much to be thankful for in Canada. The reason I mentioned those two specific groups was because of Baylee's previous statements. If you'd like to assualt me more than by all means.

I have made NO accusations towards you, I have taken exception to your words and your words speak for themselves. Nor did I misinterpret anything, you words stand for themselves, and nothing you have said takes away from the fact that you feel nothing but disdain for canadians and Canada.

You took three words out of context. Once again, note the statement made above. The reason I called it a pathetic little country is because in the global scale it is, and in someways with the action's of many people it is pathetic with relation to social issues. But at the same time we are fortunate to live in a country were sacrifices have been made by some in order to have that freedom.

How do you know people are not contributing to the greater good?

What, I made comments regarding Baylee's supposed love of this country. How can you say you love a country, if you don't understand the sacrifices made to make such a country.

As for people contributing to the common good, didn't I mention that their were individual's making contributions.

You apparently feel the only way one can contribute to the greater good is to be a cop or in the military. If they are not, then accoding to you they are pathetic and have no rights to criticize, apparently because they are not contributing to the greater good, and are all talk and no action in your view. And it is a very narrow one at that if you really believe this.

Read my response.

Yeah, well I'm sure that those who have died in Europe didn't help in some way ensure the rights you have. If you don't recognize that those who do ensure the laws are upheld [police] and that are soveriegnty is protected [military], then I doubt we would be living in a country like Canada. I recognize that everyone has a role to play in ensuring that this country remain's the country it is today, as it has in the past. However is saying that, you should also remember that the reason that we have those things is because of the sacrifices made by others whether it be in the military, emergency services, education, social services, and government sectors.

As well I have mentioned that those who make sacrifices to improve society in general are helping society. But it really isn't a surprise that you ignored it.

Again, you were the one that keeps mentioning the fact that the military is protecting Canadian values, and I am still waiting to hear what you think Canadian values are?

I already answered. The military is protecting our soveriegnty, as well they are their to help Canadian's in times on a national emergency. If you think a military is insignificant to a nation then that's your own view.

I usually like to think the individual's inhabiting the country, and some of the democratic values that we hold in this country. Obviously your version of Canadian values are something completely different. As well I think I've proven my point about apathy since you don't really have any clue yourself what Canadian values are.

My point was that Canadian values are the democratic virtues we have, and the individual's who contribute to society. What are yours?

Canadian deployment to the Balkans did nothing to assure our rights and freedoms, Canadian deployment to Korea did nothing to assure our rights and freedoms, Canadian deployment to Mayerthorpe did nothing to assure our rights and freedoms, and Canadian deployment to Afghanistan is doing nothing to assure our rights and freedoms. However, I do believe that WWI and II deployments actually did assure our rights and freedoms.

World War 1 was nothing but a spat between the leaders of a few nation's, it did very little to assure our rights and freedom's. Korea was a UN mandated mission, and the Balkan's was also a UN mandated mission which was meant to bring about peace to the region's.

Mayerthorpe wasn't a deployment of Canadian Forces, I mentioned it due to some rather vile comments towards the entire RCMP with regards to the sacrifice made by police officers. The fact you don't seem to be aware of this is abit telling.

The Mayerthorpe Incident occurred on March 3, 2005 on the property of James Roszko in Rochfort Bridge, northwest of Edmonton near the town of Mayerthorpe, in the Canadian province of Alberta. With a Heckler & Koch 91, a civilian version of a military assault rifle, Roszko shot and killed Royal Canadian Mounted Police Constables Peter Schiemann, Anthony Gordon, Lionide Johnston, and Brock Myrol as the officers were executing a property seizure on the farm. This was the largest casualty toll for the RCMP in a single operation since the Northwest Rebellion in 1885, where three constables were killed.

The officers initially went to the farm to repossess a truck, but when they arrived they discovered a significant marijuana grow-op on the premises. The four officers remained on the scene to guard it until the grow-op could be dealt with, and were ambushed inside a Quonset shed on the farm. They were only armed with handguns and were wearing soft body armour that would have provided no protection against Roszko's rifle. The officers apparently had not been expecting an armed confrontation, believing that Roszko was not on the property.

After fatally shooting the four officers, Roszko emerged from the shed and fired on two other officers who had heard the initial gunfire. The officers were not hit, and returned fire. Roszko, wounded by the response team, then retreated into the shed.

It was not the military that built this country, it is ludicrous to think so, it was individuals, some of whom did serve in the military, both willingly and unwillingly.

Actually, the comment I made was a general one with regards to who built this country Catchme. I didn't even mention the military, but the sacrifice of others.

By the way, if anyone noticed my point was that in this country we are lucky to have the most basic freedom's due to the sacrifice of others who helped build this country.

Calling you on your calling Canada a "pathetic little country", is not making accusations or assaulting you.

Accusing me of supporting pedophilia in another thread however was an accusation made by you. Once again, simply because of semantic's.

So once again, bring about your assault.

[myata]

I really want to see some party or politician (Liberal, ND or Green, I don't really care) to pull together guts and officially call off Canada's participation in this whole "war on terror" affair. Using the term inventented in the HQ of the mental giant of our times GWB is 1) meaningless; 2) explains nothing 3) helps with nothing and 4) may get everybody who isn't careful about getting too involved into greater trouble which they would later regret.

That does not mean in any way that we should not participate in a meaningful effort to stabilize international peace, our internal security or collective security with our allies - including Afganistan. It's just that it'll be done as, when, and as long as necessary, is reasonable and makes sense (economical and political). Using warlike terminology is useless (as was already pointer out multiple times, no one really knows what would be a meaning of victory in such a "war" - unless of course we'll take GWB on his word) and dangerous as these words may start living life of their own and become a self-fulfilling profecy.