Is Any Criticism of Israel

[jdobbin]

A recent New York Times story on an essay that accused many North American Jews of being anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel is stirring controversy.

http://www.cjp.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=208129

"Progressive Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism," an essay by Indiana University professor Alvin Rosenfeld, accuses several prominent Jews -- among them historian Tony Judt, playwright Tony Kushner and Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen -- of fomenting anti-Semitism through excessive criticism of Israel.

The essay was largely ignored when it was released late last year, but a recent New York Times story about it has given new life to accusations that the organized Jewish community has no tolerance for criticism of Israel.

http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=1507

Some of the people named in the essay have been long time supporters of Israel so it goes to show you that even a difference of opinion on Israeli policy is being slammed with the anti-Semitic label.

[geoffrey]

Funny that I'd use an Ann Coulter point to agree with your leftist view, but here goes.

In her book Godless, she refers to a bunch of 9-11 widows that make political points on behalf of the Democrats and are immune from rebutal because of their loss. She's a little harsh with them, to be fair to the widows. But she makes a fantastic point which is overlooked by a left-wing media that loves to destroy Ann.

I think that her point can be applied here too (though I'm sure she'd disagree).

Once you act or suggest any political policy, that action or idea is open to be criticised, regardless of whatever tradegy you hide behind. It's tradegic what happened to the Jew's in the '40s and other periods throughout history, but that'd not a defense for their policies.

I personally side with Israel on most issues, I think that a democratic nation has every right to defend itself against terrorist aggressors. But for example, I was uncomfortable with Israel's scale in their attacks against Lebanon... I found them unreasonable, untargetted and generally didn't do much at all to secure their State.

Does that make me anti-Semetic? Absolutely not. It's a fair criticism of a policy created by someone. Who that person is, doesn't matter.

There are no unquestionable people in the world. Anyone that has an opinion is open to be debated on it.

[jdobbin]

Funny that I'd use an Ann Coulter point to agree with your leftist view, but here goes.

In her book Godless, she refers to a bunch of 9-11 widows that make political points on behalf of the Democrats and are immune from rebutal because of their loss. She's a little harsh with them, to be fair to the widows. But she makes a fantastic point which is overlooked by a left-wing media that loves to destroy Ann.

I think that her point can be applied here too (though I'm sure she'd disagree).

Once you act or suggest any political policy, that action or idea is open to be criticised, regardless of whatever tradegy you hide behind. It's tradegic what happened to the Jew's in the '40s and other periods throughout history, but that'd not a defense for their policies.

I personally side with Israel on most issues, I think that a democratic nation has every right to defend itself against terrorist aggressors. But for example, I was uncomfortable with Israel's scale in their attacks against Lebanon... I found them unreasonable, untargetted and generally didn't do much at all to secure their State.

Does that make me anti-Semetic? Absolutely not. It's a fair criticism of a policy created by someone. Who that person is, doesn't matter.

There are no unquestionable people in the world. Anyone that has an opinion is open to be debated on it.

I'm not sure exactly what you think the leftist view is here.

I do agree with you that Coulter and the essayist who attacked even long-time supporters with name calling are harsh.

I don't think the widows were thinking there would be no rebuttal to their views. I just don't think they'd ever be attacked personally and viciously.

[BC_chick]

Some of the people named in the essay have been long time supporters of Israel so it goes to show you that even a difference of opinion on Israeli policy is being slammed with the anti-Semitic label.

I think Jews are tougher on Jewish critics of Israeli than they are with the counter-part non-Jews. I saw a couple of clips on YouTube which just baffled my mind.....

First there were a number of anti-Zionism Chasidic Jews protesting the existence of Israel, and a secular NY Jew came to them screaming all kinds of profanity. The Chasidics stayed calm but the other guy just went on about how they should be ashamed of themselves and they look ridiculous etc etc.

The second, EWWWWW, I couldn't get that image out of my mind. It was character assassination of a Jewish critic of Israel. It showed an obese woman in a pornographic pose, and the caption went on to say "watch this self-hating freak, as she @#$#@#$ Jews into a second holocaust" and then provides a number of her quotes (none of them that bad actually). The clip ends with her name, her PhD. status, email address, and other personal information (either address or phone number, can't remember).

I don't know. Compare that to what was said about Carter - I think it's clear that Jews expect a lot more unconditional support from other Jews than they do from non-Jews.

[geoffrey]

I'm not sure exactly what you think the leftist view is here.

It's not neccessarily a solely leftist view, I afterall tend to agree. But it's no secret that Israel's strongest opponents reside on the left side of the spectrum.

I do agree with you that Coulter and the essayist who attacked even long-time supporters with name calling are harsh.

The name calling is unacceptable... the point however, is one not often made enough. Various entities, political, corporate, whatever, constantly setup these untouchable people to make their points. Who can argue against a 9-11 widow, right?

I don't think the widows were thinking there would be no rebuttal to their views. I just don't think they'd ever be attacked personally and viciously.

It's not the widows that were thinking that, the Democrats were though. We have them not only condemning the security policy of Bush (fair game) but same-sex marriage and whole variety of other issues. Silly.

We also have Sheehan as another of these untouchables. People are made out to be evil when they criticise her views... no matter how absolutely insane she is.

Compared to the arguing against Jews is anti-semetic concept, I see alot of similarities.

[Catchme]

No, it is not, and those who say it is, are working towards their own agenda.

This why the recent Jewish group in the British Isles separated itself from the historical council.

And why others are speaking out, as well.

[scribblet]

Israel can be critized but not demonized, and that is the difference. Israel has a democracy where political debate happens among Jews of differing opinions - but - they all agree that their homeland must survive. That is not true of many Israel’s critics around the world an IMHO the larger issue here. They may not be anti semitic, but they drive a not so benign and disengenuous agenda to see Israel gone, actions and words that they know give comfort and aid to those who do work towards Israel's destrucion.

[jdobbin]

Israel can be critized but not demonized, and that is the difference. Israel has a democracy where political debate happens among Jews of differing opinions - but - they all agree that their homeland must survive. That is not true of many Israel’s critics around the world an IMHO the larger issue here. They may not be anti semitic, but they drive a not so benign and disengenuous agenda to see Israel gone, actions and words that they know give comfort and aid to those who do work towards Israel's destrucion.

Some of the critics who were outed by the essayist have been long time supporters of Israel and were still called anti-Semitic based on opposition to the invasion of Lebanon or raising concerns about the invasion.

[M.Dancer]

Is Any Criticism of Israel, Anti-Semitism?

No certainly not, but the ones that are certainly are easy to spot.

The clues are the language they use, theattempt to demoze israel...they cease to be israelis, they become Zionists, much the way Germans became Nazis...

....policies are refered as apartheid, etc etc etc.......the loss of israeli life is downplayed....

And so on and so

[Catchme]

Israel can be critized but not demonized, and that is the difference. Israel has a democracy where political debate happens among Jews of differing opinions - but - they all agree that their homeland must survive.

So then there would be a fine line between "demonizing" Israel and "criticizing" Israel. A line that people will subjectively use based upon their own person agenda.

And NO all Jews DO NOT count Israel as their "homeland".

[scribblet]

Israel can be critized but not demonized, and that is the difference. Israel has a democracy where political debate happens among Jews of differing opinions - but - they all agree that their homeland must survive.

So then there would be a fine line between "demonizing" Israel and "criticizing" Israel. A line that people will subjectively use based upon their own person agenda.

And NO all Jews DO NOT count Israel as their "homeland".

I was talking about Israel, so maybe you could provide proof that Jewish Israelis do not consider Israel as their homeland.

I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't have an 'agenda' but I recognize an agenda of demonizing Israel which plays to the agenda of the left wing demonization of the U.S. This along with the romanization of the 'Palestinians' and continually presenting them as victims rather than perpetuators of terrorism is all part and parcel of the fine line of anti semitism.

There is a definite pattern to the left wing demonization of Israel by the the left, which criticizes Israel while ignoring terrorists who aim to exterminate Israelis, on the part of the many Palestinians (and others).

[Catchme]

Israel can be critized but not demonized, and that is the difference. Israel has a democracy where political debate happens among Jews of differing opinions - but - they all agree that their homeland must survive.

So then there would be a fine line between "demonizing" Israel and "criticizing" Israel. A line that people will subjectively use based upon their own person agenda.

And NO all Jews DO NOT count Israel as their "homeland".

I was talking about Israel, so maybe you could provide proof that Jewish Israelis do not consider Israel as their homeland.

I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't have an 'agenda' but I recognize an agenda of demonizing Israel which plays to the agenda of the left wing demonization of the U.S. This along with the romanization of the 'Palestinians' and continually presenting them as victims rather than perpetuators of terrorism is all part and parcel of the fine line of anti semitism.

Then refer to them as Israelis as opposed to "Jews".

There is no demonization by the" left" that I can observe, you will have to provide an example , or actually several please. Other than that it is just your subjective opinion, and nothing more.

Please provide examples of the "lefts" romanticizing of Palestinians. As this again would be your personal opinion and nothing more.

[M.Dancer]

is here a good start?

http://arab.sa.utoronto.ca/

One sided.....to the point that an entire nation is wiped off the map..........

The ultra left in their desire to split the public have been increasingly anti semitic....just take a peak at the criticisms leveled at Irshad Manji...how her "supposed" funding is coming from the "likes" of the Aspers.....

[jbg]

is here a good start?

http://arab.sa.utoronto.ca/

One sided.....to the point that an entire nation is wiped off the map..........

The ultra left in their desire to split the public have been increasingly anti semitic....just take a peak at the criticisms leveled at Irshad Manji...how her "supposed" funding is coming from the "likes" of the Aspers.....

In their criticism of Israel, lefitsts tend to hold Israel (and the US) to an impossible double standard of perfection. Palestinians and Arabs generally are given a "free pass" for horrific violence, because of their alleged victim status. Never mind that 6 million Jews were recently "victims".

Israel and the US have to fight with both hands tied behind their backs, in order to avoid injuring civilians who the animals hide among. And yes, the term "animals" applies to those that fight out of uniform, hide among civilians, and aim primarily at civilians.

[Melanie_]

I understand the concern of an impossible double standard. But I also think that, to be a player on the world stage, Isreal has to recognize that sometimes criticism of their policies or actions is simply about their policies or actions. We shouldn't have to worry about being labelled ant-Semites because we disagree with Isreali politics. I fully support Isreal's right to exist, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they do. Actually, in my view this means that they have shed the "also ran" status, and taken on their rightful place in world affairs, warts and all.

[scribblet]

There is no demonization by the" left" that I can observe, you will have to provide an example , or actually several please. Other than that it is just your subjective opinion, and nothing more.

The same applies to you.

Many on the left seem to take a perverse delight in regurgitating lies and crap regarding Israel e.g. protocols of Zion; zionist or jewish conspiracy etc. etc.

When Israel defends itself from Hezbollah et al, Rabble, Daily Kos or others call the Isralis Nazis committing genocide against Lebanon - no mention that Hezbollah and Hamas wants Israeli wiped off the map.

The new anti-semitism manifests itself through the couched language of antiZionism and desperate concern for Palestinian rights, while ignoring Hamas and PLO stated intentions and terrorism.

There is surely a difference between criticism and demonization. I'll believe it is the former when the left challenge anti-semitism within the PLO or Hamas (and others), and, takes the terrorists and would be suicide bombers to task at the same time. While they are at it, they could ask the terrorist org. how many of their people they could feed for every $15,000. Kassam rockets they continually lob into Israel.

[Catchme]

Again, you never provided examples requested.

Again people are choosing to see that voicing criticism of Israel's actions as anti-semitism, when it is not. Every country who has the current availability of nuclear should be indeed watched closely for actions and criticized when they are considering the use of nukes against another nation.

Those Jews who are stepping forward and criticizing Israel, are not anti-semetic, they are concerned that their voices are being expropriated by Israel, wrongly. They understand and know that Israel is not faultless in all of this. And they know that saying such things are NOT anti-semetic but righteous comcern.

Funny how some appear to be "pro-life" but expound upon the needed destruction of Muslims.

[scribblet]

Again, you never provided examples requested.

Again people are choosing to see that voicing criticism of Israel's actions as anti-semitism, when it is not. Every country who has the current availability of nuclear should be indeed watched closely for actions and criticized when they are considering the use of nukes against another nation.

Those Jews who are stepping forward and criticizing Israel, are not anti-semetic, they are concerned that their voices are being expropriated by Israel, wrongly. They understand and know that Israel is not faultless in all of this. And they know that saying such things are NOT anti-semetic but righteous comcern.

Funny how some appear to be "pro-life" but expound upon the needed destruction of Muslims.

I'm not scouring the internet looking for 'examples' funny how some are pro-choice and don't expound upon the needed destruction of Muslims. Some do see the need for destroying radical terrorist organizations.

Most of what I read from your posts is Creative Thinking 101

[Argus]

I understand the concern of an impossible double standard. But I also think that, to be a player on the world stage, Isreal has to recognize that sometimes criticism of their policies or actions is simply about their policies or actions.

And sometimes those criticisms ignore the reasons for those policies and actions - as in criticising the wall, but not saying a word about the violence and attacks which inspired its construction.

And sometimes the criticism is just deliberate troublemaking and playing to the mob, as in the current criticism of Israel by various Arab dictators because - of all things - they're doing some reno work on a walkway which is near the Golden Mount.

[Figleaf]

Funny that I'd use an Ann Coulter point to agree with your leftist view, but here goes.

In her book Godless, she refers to a bunch of 9-11 widows that make political points on behalf of the Democrats and are immune from rebutal because of their loss. She's a little harsh with them,

Harshness is Annie's stock in trade.

...she makes a fantastic point which is overlooked by a left-wing media that loves to destroy Ann.

I have yet to hear a criticism of Ann Coulter that went remotely far enough in calling her on her perfidious nonsense.

[Figleaf]

Who can argue against a 9-11 widow, right?

This seems like a red herring. Anyone can argue against anyone.

[Figleaf]

is here a good start?

http://arab.sa.utoronto.ca/

One sided.....to the point that an entire nation is wiped off the map..........

The ultra left in their desire to split the public have been increasingly anti semitic....just take a peak at the criticisms leveled at Irshad Manji...how her "supposed" funding is coming from the "likes" of the Aspers.....

1. How do you know it's left wing?

2. Where does it suggest the wiping off the map thing?

[Figleaf]

In their criticism of Israel, lefitsts tend to hold Israel (and the US) to an impossible double standard of perfection. Palestinians and Arabs generally are given a "free pass" for horrific violence, because of their alleged victim status.

Do you have any support, proof, or examples for this contention?

[Figleaf]

Many on the left seem to take a perverse delight in regurgitating lies and crap regarding Israel e.g. protocols of Zion; zionist or jewish conspiracy etc. etc.

Source citation please?

... - no mention that Hezbollah and Hamas wants Israeli wiped off the map.

I wonder ... does Israel want to see Hamas destroyed?

The new anti-semitism manifests itself through the couched language of antiZionism and desperate concern for Palestinian rights, while ignoring Hamas and PLO stated intentions and terrorism.

While Israel's apologists tend to 'ignore' the ongoing illegal Occupation and the original harm of the creation of Israel against the wishes of the regions inhabitants.

There is surely a difference between criticism and demonization. I'll believe it is the former when the left challenge anti-semitism within the PLO or Hamas (and others), and, takes the terrorists and would be suicide bombers to task at the same time. While they are at it, they could ask the terrorist org. how many of their people they could feed for every $15,000. Kassam rockets they continually lob into Israel.

Question: what would you say if the Palestinians carried out standard military action against Israel? Would that be okay?

[Figleaf]

And sometimes those criticisms ignore the reasons for those policies and actions - as in criticising the wall, but not saying a word about the violence and attacks which inspired its construction.

Or like criticising Palestinian violence but not saying a word about the Occupation that inspires it.