Michael Coren: Homosexuality Not Natural, Not Normal

[kimmy]

I love how you always bring a "Sesame Street" grasp of the issues to the discussion, Drea.

[jefferiah]

and what if I think Jews are "bad"?

Am I "allowed" to stand on a soapbox and shout it to the world?

What if I think that all blacks, asians and arabs are the scum of the earth -- am I allowed to shout it from a soapbox? Am I allowed to promote hatred of these people or should I shut up and keep my opinion to myself?

Drea, the sentiment was that he felt homosexuality was a sin because he is a Catholic. He never said anything about them being the scum of the Earth. I have had weaknesses for things the Church calls sins as well. I am glad that there are people who dissent in life, and profess a moral standard beyond the law. I am sure DiCicco is aware that his church believes that everyone is a sinner----so he never called homosexuals scum of the earth. The term disease is a term we use for alcoholics, gamblers, etc----and we probably all have a disease of some variety----that doesn't mean he is calling them scum of the Earth.

Today I saw an ad on TV about a guy in a supermarket meeting a guy with aids and telling him "well you are a fairy and you deserved it". That is pretty rude. But the thing is believing homosexuality is a sin does not mean you think like that guy.

[jefferiah]

Figleaf you know what Kimmy said is true.

My point is that you righties can't whine about how expression rights are being trampled because the right never got tested in this case.

The topic of the complaint should be about how expensive it is for the non-wealthy to access justice.

The only whining here Figleaf comes from two people who feel the need to whine for 1000 bucks cuz they dont like another fellow's opinions.

[jefferiah]

Now look here Drea. This guy says he believes homosexuals should have rights, that they are people, that they can be good people, but he believes personally it is immoral. There is little in that to be compared with spewing out "Homosexuals are scum of the Earth." Be realistic. While you may not agree with his view of homosexuality being sinful, he seems like a person who honestly sympathizes with people he views as having a problem. The same way we could sympathize with anyone struggling with any sort of weakness (mind you I am using this from his point of view, since I know you dont think of it as that). You have to admit there is a huge, huge difference in that.

In the case I mentioned earlier of the Alberta Pastor who was put before a Human Rights Tribunal for a some letters to an editorial, even homosexuals came out in his support. Those who met with him found he was very friendly and not the sort that looks upon himself as better than others. They felt (even though they may have not agreed with him, or maybe they had) that he was genuinely concerned about homosexuals and was not preaching his message from a standpoint of hatred. Given the words Michael Coren used (as I am not completely sure about DiCicco's) there is nothing there to be equated with "Homosexuals are scum of the Earth." Be reasonable.

[jefferiah]

I know people who believe smoking is wrong, but they don't hate smokers. I know people who believe drinking under age is wrong, but they dont think their children are scum of the earth when they catch them. Saying you believe something is wrong is a far far cry from hating someone.

[frogs]

You been peekin' in peoples' bedroom windows?

If not, how on earth do you know what they do in there? Maybe they just hold hands and sing Kumbaya...

Damn gays and women, eh! Ruinin' the wurld fer yah strate wite geyes.

No interest in windows... I take their word for it, also the lisp, the swishi, etc, etc, etc, ...

[frogs]

Advertising bestiality or homosexuality is not good for the community. Like advertising waste products. They exist but they have a very negative effect on society. I don't hate my own waste products, but i don't advertise them, because it simply is not a plus for society. As long as their are waste product groups, funded for the sake of getting funding, then a reason to exist (from no reason) creates all sorts of fictions. And so we have "equal opportunity".

[frogs]

and what if I think Jews are "bad"?

Am I "allowed" to stand on a soapbox and shout it to the world?

What if I think that all blacks, asians and arabs are the scum of the earth -- am I allowed to shout it from a soapbox? Am I allowed to promote hatred of these people or should I shut up and keep my opinion to myself?

Scum is scum and demands equal rights because they are not willing to be respectable. That being the case, the next step is for them to force their scum on society to try to make it acceptable. Scum IS acceptable to scum, but nowhere else. But then they want you to pay for their scum! Which is theft! And proof of their scummage, for those blind folks not aware of it yet.

[jbg]

and what if I think Jews are "bad"?

Am I "allowed" to stand on a soapbox and shout it to the world?

What if I think that all blacks, asians and arabs are the scum of the earth -- am I allowed to shout it from a soapbox? Am I allowed to promote hatred of these people or should I shut up and keep my opinion to myself?

Drea, the answer is I think you should be allowed to. Democracy is not for cowards. Democracy also does not prevent idiots from making fools of themselves.

Those kinds of ideas should lose in the marketplace of ideas, not in police handcuffs resulting from "hate speech" laws. It just may be OK to enhance to a minor extent sentences for actions such as petty vandalism because of hate motivation, but even then I have my doubts. The US First Amendment, i.e. almost absolute free speech, has worked pretty well south of 49.

[Figleaf]

DeCicco was stating this opinion in response to questions about why he voted no in a vote on having a "pride day" type event in Kamloops.

Then this discussion [and possibly the HRC case] have been a bit misdirected. What is really at issue is DiCicco's vote to deny freedom of expression, and the apparent basis for his vote being prejudice against those he considers unnatural or diseased.

[Argus]

DeCicco was stating this opinion in response to questions about why he voted no in a vote on having a "pride day" type event in Kamloops.

Then this discussion [and possibly the HRC case] have been a bit misdirected. What is really at issue is DiCicco's vote to deny freedom of expression, and the apparent basis for his vote being prejudice against those he considers unnatural or diseased.

Since when is voting no against a gay pride day a violation of anyone's freedom of expression? Did he vote against people being gay? Against gay people having a parade? Against gay people singing and dancing and shouting out their possibly wierd sexual beliefs to the world?

Some of you over there on the far left seem to believe that anything denied you is a violation of your "fundamental human rights".

[Robert777]

DeCicco was stating this opinion in response to questions about why he voted no in a vote on having a "pride day" type event in Kamloops.

Then this discussion [and possibly the HRC case] have been a bit misdirected. What is really at issue is DiCicco's vote to deny freedom of expression, and the apparent basis for his vote being prejudice against those he considers unnatural or diseased.

Since when is voting no against a gay pride day a violation of anyone's freedom of expression? Did he vote against people being gay? Against gay people having a parade? Against gay people singing and dancing and shouting out their possibly wierd sexual beliefs to the world?

Some of you over there on the far left seem to believe that anything denied you is a violation of your "fundamental human rights".

I can't of said this better myself. BRAVO!!!!

PROUD TO BE A REFORMER, BUY A GUN PO A LIBERAL! :angry:

[Catchme]

and what if I think Jews are "bad"?

Am I "allowed" to stand on a soapbox and shout it to the world?

What if I think that all blacks, asians and arabs are the scum of the earth -- am I allowed to shout it from a soapbox? Am I allowed to promote hatred of these people or should I shut up and keep my opinion to myself?

Good analogy drea, his using the word disease, was not from the context that substance abuse is a disease. However, even if he was, this is still unacceptable commentary.

[jefferiah]

I dont think his use of disease was from a hate perspective either. And in any case no one needs to charge him 1000 dollars for voicing his own opinion just because it is not your opinion Catch Me.

[jefferiah]

I dont think Drea's analogy was on the money at all. I certainly dont think it is fair to say he is saying that he feels homosexuals are the scum of the earth. I am familiar with the mindset Michael Coren speaks for, it is my own mindset. I do not think homosexuals are the scum of the earth. And I do think of it as more like an addiction to a bad behaviour. When you've realized there are no grounds against a man speaking his opinion, your next course of action is to put words in his mouth and say well he meant disease as if to say "homosexuals are scum" and equate it with racist hate speeches. I know what I think, and I think Coren and DiCicco are of the same school. I cant prove it, but I am sure of it. So if I am asked my opinion on homosexuality and I say that I think they should be treated like anyone else and be given jobs, etc, but that I feel it is a sin and I do not condone it-----do you think I should have to pay 1000 dollars to every homosexual who does not like my opinion?

[jefferiah]

and what if I think Jews are "bad"?

Am I "allowed" to stand on a soapbox and shout it to the world?

What if I think that all blacks, asians and arabs are the scum of the earth -- am I allowed to shout it from a soapbox? Am I allowed to promote hatred of these people or should I shut up and keep my opinion to myself?

Good analogy drea, his using the word disease, was not from the context that substance abuse is a disease. However, even if he was, this is still unacceptable commentary.

I would say the context is more in line with a mental illness or psychological problem. Do you think that it is insulting to believe this? (Even if you dont agree with it.) Then you must say it is an insult to all the mentally ill to be considered ill, maybe we should not say that schizophrenia is an illness. Look I realize you will say that you dont believe homosexuality is an illness. Thats fine, but this man believes it is....so what. That is not hatred.

[Drea]

Ok... I concede.

The man wasn't spewing hate from a soapbox and he is allowed to think what he wants.

Personally I think fat people are diseased. It's not normal to be obese.

Every time I see one chewing their cud and/or ambling slowly (as if they can move any other way) I want to say "move faster and you'd lose some weight!"

Of course I don't literally hate fat people, they just disgust me, they are diseased and need to be treated, need to be on diets, need to get off their fat asses... because lord knows their obesity affects me personally because I have to look at them.

[jbg]

Personally I think fat people are diseased. It's not normal to be obese.

Every time I see one chewing their cud and/or ambling slowly (as if they can move any other way) I want to say "move faster and you'd lose some weight!"

Of course I don't literally hate fat people, they just disgust me, they are diseased and need to be treated, need to be on diets, need to get off their fat asses... because lord knows their obesity affects me personally because I have to look at them.

I'm a bit overweight myself. Maybe from too much time on MLW.

However, to the gallows for your opinion!!!

[jefferiah]

Ok... I concede.

The man wasn't spewing hate from a soapbox and he is allowed to think what he wants.

Personally I think fat people are diseased. It's not normal to be obese.

Every time I see one chewing their cud and/or ambling slowly (as if they can move any other way) I want to say "move faster and you'd lose some weight!"

Of course I don't literally hate fat people, they just disgust me, they are diseased and need to be treated, need to be on diets, need to get off their fat asses... because lord knows their obesity affects me personally because I have to look at them.

Thank you! If I am ever obese I wont sue you for saying that.

[frogs]

Ok... I concede.

The man wasn't spewing hate from a soapbox and he is allowed to think what he wants.

Personally I think fat people are diseased. It's not normal to be obese.

Every time I see one chewing their cud and/or ambling slowly (as if they can move any other way) I want to say "move faster and you'd lose some weight!"

Of course I don't literally hate fat people, they just disgust me, they are diseased and need to be treated, need to be on diets, need to get off their fat asses... because lord knows their obesity affects me personally because I have to look at them.

Thank you! If I am ever obese I wont sue you for saying that.

Everybody (I know) has some sort of disease, the trick is not to advertise it and sell it as a good thing. That's fraud.

[Drea]

I forget where I heard/saw/read this but -- apparently in the 1980's only 10% of the population thought fat people were attractive - today 25% of the population think fat people are attractive.

Marketing strategty for fat people? Or just acceptance of this "growing" phenomenon?

40% of the population of Canada is considered obese. 2% are gay.

I'd say the "fat" disease" is much worse than the "gay" disease.

[jefferiah]

Yeah. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I am saying this guy should be able to say what he thinks is a disease in a free country. Personally even though I might use the same terminology I dont think of it as an insult, which might be where the confusion arises for some people. I think for one it is natural for homosexuals who may have been poked fun at all their lives for various reasons to think that everyone who believes that what they are doing is wrong is out to get them. But I really dont think this is true. For instance there are people who believe drugs are immoral, and some of them might hate drug users and think of them as long-haired deviants (put em up against the wall----against the wall, and theres one in the spotlight he dont look right to me). But not all people see things this way, and I realize it is not easy for everyone to sort this and that out, but nonetheless I think it is important to preserve free speech because not everything that is offensive to someone is meant to incite attack. Does that make sense, Drea?

[jefferiah]

Now I think I forgot to add something in my drug analogy. I know homosexuality is not drug addiction either but I am making my point using something that some people view as immoral or harmful. Now I mentioned that to some people long hairs and druggies are all trash, but I used to smoke pot when I was younger. And I sort of had it in my head that all people who were against it were like those "we dont let our hair grow long and shaggy" okees who were looking at me as "someone doing something dirty decent folks can frown on". There are people like that sure. But my parents weren't. They didnt call me names, or call me trash, but they were concerned when they found out. At first it was convenient for me to lump them in with the "stone him" crowd, but the fact that they opposed what I did never meant they did not love me or that they wanted to slander me. This is a point I would really like to make, because I think it is important.

[Figleaf]

DeCicco was stating this opinion in response to questions about why he voted no in a vote on having a "pride day" type event in Kamloops.

Then this discussion [and possibly the HRC case] have been a bit misdirected. What is really at issue is DiCicco's vote to deny freedom of expression, and the apparent basis for his vote being prejudice against those he considers unnatural or diseased.

Since when is voting no against a gay pride day a violation of anyone's freedom of expression?

Obviously, having a parade is a type of expression.

Did he vote against people being gay?

I don't think he had any opportunity to do that.

Against gay people having a parade?

Ummm ... YES.

Some of you over there on the far left

I'm not leftist, I'm a classical liberal.

...seem to believe that anything denied you is a violation of your "fundamental human rights".

Freedom of expression is a fundamental right in Canada. Discriminating to deny someone something based on prejudice is a violation of human rights laws.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

[Figleaf]

I dont think his use of disease was from a hate perspective either. And in any case no one needs to charge him 1000 dollars for voicing his own opinion just because it is not your opinion Catch Me.

He AGREED to settle the case for $1000.