Dion Courting Western Vote

[BC_chick]

Anyway, looks like he's trying to win over Vancouver with this one - it was a highly supported issue in Vancouver:

Dion says Vancouver's drug injection site works

Updated Thu. Jan. 25 2007 5:52 PM ET

Canadian Press

VICTORIA -- Liberal leader Stephane Dion is blasting Prime Minister Stephen Harper for not fully endorsing the safe drug injection site in downtown Vancouver.

The Conservative government granted the site a one-year extension last fall in order to do more studies on how well the program works before making a final decision about its future. But Dion says the evidence is already in.

In related news:

Ottawa's war on drugs a failure, report says

Updated Mon. Jan. 15 2007 7:43 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Ottawa's war on drugs has been an utter failure, according to a new report that accuses the federal government of focusing too heavily on law enforcement.

The report says Canada's drug strategy puts too much emphasis on law enforcement rather than ways to fight illicit drug use and cut down on the human toll.

[gc1765]

Good to hear.

[geoffrey]

So here is the two approaches:

Harper... ok guys, let's run this another year, make sure everything checks out, then commit once we are sure this provides value to the public in general.

Dion... umm oui oui, let us make these needles free for all, the evidence is clear... screw controls, research or statistics! we can make megatonnes of money off megatonnes of needles!!

This has been harder and harder for me to say as of late, but I'll take Harper's side on this one.

[Fortunata]

How many studies on this do we have to have and pay for?

[geoffrey]

How many studies on this do we have to have and pay for?

This isn't about a study to see if the program should be implemented. This is waiting a year, checking out how things went at a management level, then deciding the needs for the next year. I think all government projects should be done similarly to that.

A blank cheque to an agency to spend at whim, a guarnteed one forever at that... that's just asking for corruption and misappropriation.

[BC_chick]

Dion... umm oui oui, let us make these needles free for all, the evidence is clear... screw controls, research or statistics! we can make megatonnes of money off megatonnes of needles!!

Did you read the second article? Dion's on the right track. (pardon the pun) The police have been saying the same thing for a long time too. You have to SEE Vancouver East Side to understand (if you haven't already).

Harper's also taken away the budget for homeless shelters which only means more on the street. Cutting funding for either program doesn't sweep anything under the rug, it brings it more in plain sight if anything. You can only live in denial for so long.

Edit: I wanted to add that last year over 200 overdoses were diverted in safe-injection sites, and God knows how many more with the clean-needles.

Maybe they're not worth saving? Is that what it comes down to?

[geoffrey]

It shouldn't be a Federal issue. Constitutionally it's provincial, hopefully Harper cuts enough Federal tax that B.C. can raise it's taxes proportionally to cover it's own issues.

[BC_chick]

It shouldn't be a Federal issue. Constitutionally it's provincial, hopefully Harper cuts enough Federal tax that B.C. can raise it's taxes proportionally to cover it's own issues.

Provinces are responsible for administration and delivery of housing programs, not financing.

Besides, the CPC is going to pay, they are just interrupting the funding and being vague about the details.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/...ocial-gvrd.html

[Who's Doing What?]

So here is the two approaches:

Harper... ok guys, let's run this another year, make sure everything checks out, then commit once we are sure this provides value to the public in general.

Dion... umm oui oui, let us make these needles free for all, the evidence is clear... screw controls, research or statistics! we can make megatonnes of money off megatonnes of needles!!

This has been harder and harder for me to say as of late, but I'll take Harper's side on this one.

What about the comparitive costs between supplying free clean needles to drug addicts as opposed to providing health care for HIV infected junkies?

Anyone have some numbers on that?

[fellowtraveller]

BC Chick, you are threadjacking your own thread.

Back to the OP: the drug site has funding for the next year, though I remain baffled as to why BC doesn't take responsibility for their own health care issues.

Dion isn't courting the West, he is courting BC, and will say anything from Opposition since he has no requirement to back up his mouth with any actual action. In short- classic Liberalism.

[Who's Doing What?]

. In short- classic Liberalism.

Something which is rapidly beginning to look like Modern Conservatism.

[fellowtraveller]

Talk is cheap. Dion would be laughed out of Alberta. He's been here a couple of times, spends his time preaching to the (tiny) choir.

[BC_chick]

BC Chick, you are threadjacking your own thread.

Read post 6, it's the evolution of the thread, I'm not hijacking it.

Back to the OP: the drug site has funding for the next year, though I remain baffled as to why BC doesn't take responsibility for their own health care issues.

It's a social-program, not a health-care issue.

Dion isn't courting the West, he is courting BC, and will say anything from Opposition since he has no requirement to back up his mouth with any actual action. In short- classic Liberalism.

Or maybe he's read the data, agrees with it, and like many other British Columbians and Canadians he agrees that the government should be funding such social-programs and projects.

[BC_chick]

What about the comparitive costs between supplying free clean needles to drug addicts as opposed to providing health care for HIV infected junkies?

Anyone have some numbers on that?

Hastings Street, which connect downtown Vancouver to Burnaby before becoming highway seven and going all the way to the suburbs, first runs through Vancouver East Side. What you see there now is still not pretty, but at least you no longer see drug-addicts shooting up in the streets. Hundreds of overdoses have also been diverted by having these safe-injection sites.

For you the bottom-line may be all that's involved, and that's merely another factor to consider. But for many others, myself included, there are other aspects of the program which you just can't put a monetary value on.

[jdobbin]

Talk is cheap. Dion would be laughed out of Alberta. He's been here a couple of times, spends his time preaching to the (tiny) choir.

It's too bad that the Conservatives can't win more seats in Alberta. Harper has barely been to Edmonton in the last months because he can take the province of Alberta for granted.

[tml12]

What about the comparitive costs between supplying free clean needles to drug addicts as opposed to providing health care for HIV infected junkies?

Anyone have some numbers on that?

Hastings Street, which connect downtown Vancouver to Burnaby before becoming highway seven and going all the way to the suburbs, first runs through Vancouver East Side. What you see there now is still not pretty, but at least you no longer see drug-addicts shooting up in the streets. Hundreds of overdoses have also been diverted by having these safe-injection sites.

For you the bottom-line may be all that's involved, and that's merely another factor to consider. But for many others, myself included, there are other aspects of the program which you just can't put a monetary value on.

There is no such thing as a "safe" injection. I remember New York 20 years ago and I don't think they cleaned up that city with this leftist concept of "safe injection cites." I just think they threw these people in jail and kept them there and increased the police presence.

I don't think my tax dollars should go toward somebody else's addiction. Using drugs is simply wrong.

[Hydraboss]

What about the comparitive costs between supplying free clean needles to drug addicts as opposed to providing health care for HIV infected junkies?

Anyone have some numbers on that?

Hastings Street, which connect downtown Vancouver to Burnaby before becoming highway seven and going all the way to the suburbs, first runs through Vancouver East Side. What you see there now is still not pretty, but at least you no longer see drug-addicts shooting up in the streets. Hundreds of overdoses have also been diverted by having these safe-injection sites.

For you the bottom-line may be all that's involved, and that's merely another factor to consider. But for many others, myself included, there are other aspects of the program which you just can't put a monetary value on.

It's always about the bottom line. In reality, everything we do is connected to money. And this is not a social issue, it is a health issue and therefore a provincial responsibility. Anything can be connected to a "social issue" if you try hard enough; it's just a matter of degrees.

BC should pay for it's own addicts, and in their own way. Want "come and relax while you shoot up illegal drugs" sites? Pay more provincial tax. It's high time (pun intended) that people started taking responsibilty for themselves.

Nobody is paying for my stop-smoking aids. Why not? It's an addiction and therefore the government (read: the taxpaying public) should be footing the bill.

And my beer. Yes, my beer. Pay for that too because I could be an alcoholic.

By the way, I think I may be addicted to sex too. Guess what that means....

[Keepitsimple]

I'm going to weigh in on this from a different point of view. I'm in Toronto so I might not be up-to-speed on all the Vancouver issues....but what seems to be missing is that people on this Blog report that hundreds of people are dying from drug overdoses. Yet I never read anything about it in the papers. Perhaps if it was publicized more - making every death count for something - advertizing every wasted life - all the wasted potential - then maybe some kids would get the message and get off the road to nowhere. As for the Safe Injection Sites - as far as I'm concerned, that amounts to society throwing up their hans and saying- we can't beat it so let's make it safer. To kids, that amounts to society accepting that drug use is "just one of those things". Sorry - I'm an old fashioned type - show the ugliness of it all - in schoools - show the track marks, the vacant eyes, the homelessness, the crime to feed the need, the single-mindedness of living every day to find the next fix. Don't accept it - fight it all the way - it's very little different that stopping someone from jumping off a bridge. Tough but compassionate laws with mandatory rehab - regardless of the Charter of Rights. Get real.

[geoffrey]

Hastings Street, which connect downtown Vancouver to Burnaby before becoming highway seven and going all the way to the suburbs, first runs through Vancouver East Side. What you see there now is still not pretty, but at least you no longer see drug-addicts shooting up in the streets. Hundreds of overdoses have also been diverted by having these safe-injection sites.

For you the bottom-line may be all that's involved, and that's merely another factor to consider. But for many others, myself included, there are other aspects of the program which you just can't put a monetary value on.

But these people remain addicts, they simply don't die so quickly. So really, what it comes down to, is that you don't like seeing addicts around so it's best to keep them out of sight and out of mind. Essientially your postponing the inevitable at the tax payers expense.

What about the comparitive costs between supplying free clean needles to drug addicts as opposed to providing health care for HIV infected junkies?

We need to start cutting down the free health care we give to people that willingly self-destruct. Just as a drunkard shouldn't get a new liver, I doubt if I can really justify wasting money on someone that is going to kill themselves soon anyways.

There is no such thing as a "safe" injection. I remember New York 20 years ago and I don't think they cleaned up that city with this leftist concept of "safe injection cites." I just think they threw these people in jail and kept them there and increased the police presence.

I don't think my tax dollars should go toward somebody else's addiction. Using drugs is simply wrong.

New York is a great success of locking up the degenerates and watching the city flourish. Crime has gone way down in New York becaue of enforcement of minor offenses... the broken window policy if you may. Calgary currently is attempting the same, cracking down on things like spitting and graffiti. The difference is the government is unwilling to give Canadian police forces the resources that New York had to enforce their very successful policies.

[tml12]

I'm going to weigh in on this from a different point of view. I'm in Toronto so I might not be up-to-speed on all the Vancouver issues....but what seems to be missing is that people on this Blog report that hundreds of people are dying from drug overdoses. Yet I never read anything about it in the papers. Perhaps if it was publicized more - making every death count for something - advertizing every wasted life - all the wasted potential - then maybe some kids would get the message and get off the road to nowhere. As for the Safe Injection Sites - as far as I'm concerned, that amounts to society throwing up their hans and saying- we can't beat it so let's make it safer. To kids, that amounts to society accepting that drug use is "just one of those things". Sorry - I'm an old fashioned type - show the ugliness of it all - in schoools - show the track marks, the vacant eyes, the homelessness, the crime to feed the need, the single-mindedness of living every day to find the next fix. Don't accept it - fight it all the way - it's very little different that stopping someone from jumping off a bridge. Tough but compassionate laws with mandatory rehab - regardless of the Charter of Rights. Get real.

Well said...we seem to be so concerned today with "accepting" things. I call BS.

We should arrest these individuals and send them to detox. If that does not work, ARREST THEM. The left is absolutely maddening with their "nouveau" techniques. Every time you shoot out, all the brain cells killed, all the wasted potential. And now the left says, "well now, they just can't get AIDS."

I am also a city kid and have seen a lot of bad stuff go on. Lots of kids think it's cool and if we allow safe injection sites, well then it's OK...OK to destroy your body with drugs but not OK to get AIDS.

There's personal responsibility involved in not getting AIDS and not taking drugs. How about we fight both instead of sacrificing one at the expense of the other?

[jbg]

There is no such thing as a "safe" injection. I remember New York 20 years ago and I don't think they cleaned up that city with this leftist concept of "safe injection cites." I just think they threw these people in jail and kept them there and increased the police presence.

I don't think my tax dollars should go toward somebody else's addiction. Using drugs is simply wrong.

New York City 20 years ago was quite a bit better than 10-13 years before that, and is quite safe now. Drug giveaways have not been part of the formula.

[tml12]

There is no such thing as a "safe" injection. I remember New York 20 years ago and I don't think they cleaned up that city with this leftist concept of "safe injection cites." I just think they threw these people in jail and kept them there and increased the police presence.

I don't think my tax dollars should go toward somebody else's addiction. Using drugs is simply wrong.

New York City 20 years ago was quite a bit better than 10-13 years before that, and is quite safe now. Drug giveaways have not been part of the formula.

Yes, I realize that. That was my point.

[jbg]

There is no such thing as a "safe" injection. I remember New York 20 years ago and I don't think they cleaned up that city with this leftist concept of "safe injection cites." I just think they threw these people in jail and kept them there and increased the police presence.

I don't think my tax dollars should go toward somebody else's addiction. Using drugs is simply wrong.

New York City 20 years ago was quite a bit better than 10-13 years before that, and is quite safe now. Drug giveaways have not been part of the formula.

Yes, I realize that. That was my point.

I know. You have a pair of brains between your ears. That's not universal, apparently. Some people think the best way to solve the addiction problem is to encourage the use of the addicting substance. Like bringning fire water to an AA meeting.

[tml12]

There is no such thing as a "safe" injection. I remember New York 20 years ago and I don't think they cleaned up that city with this leftist concept of "safe injection cites." I just think they threw these people in jail and kept them there and increased the police presence.

I don't think my tax dollars should go toward somebody else's addiction. Using drugs is simply wrong.

New York City 20 years ago was quite a bit better than 10-13 years before that, and is quite safe now. Drug giveaways have not been part of the formula.

Yes, I realize that. That was my point.

I know. You have a pair of brains between your ears. That's not universal, apparently. Some people think the best way to solve the addiction problem is to encourage the use of the addicting substance. Like bringning fire water to an AA meeting.

Bryant Park and 42nd Street between 7th and 8th Avenues (especially 8th Avenue) used to be REALLY bad...I was there a number of years ago and have been back in the years since and it's really improved. The police presence has been increased, I haven't noticed any needles, and the homeless problem in general has vastly improved.

To my knowledge, none of this has anything to do with "feeling" for these criminals who abuse the system by letting them break the law so they don't get AIDS. What if they commit additional crimes during their high that they got on needles paid for with my tax dollars? The whole thing seems absolutely bizarre. We should find them, arrest them, and keep them in prison. Many NDP/Liberal people have made the argument we pay for them anyway if they get AIDS but I say I'd rather pay for their prison-imposed detox.

[jbg]

Bryant Park and 42nd Street between 7th and 8th Avenues (especially 8th Avenue) used to be REALLY bad...I was there a number of years ago and have been back in the years since and it's really improved. The police presence has been increased, I haven't noticed any needles, and the homeless problem in general has vastly improved.

Bingo.

Even the South Bronx, the site of the stories behind the 1981 movie "Fort Apache, the Bronx" has become "knock-em-dead gorgeous". Needles were not part of that rehabilitation process.