Promise of Childcare Spaces

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070122/...ries_child_care

I know some Tories here will ask why daycare space should be provided by government. I guess the answer is that the demand for space that can't be met by the private sector.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has conceded that his government's approach may need tweaking. Still, one of his first acts in power was to cancel $5 billion in promised Liberal child-care funding as of March 31, 2007.

[Keepitsimple]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070122/...ries_child_care

I know some Tories here will ask why daycare space should be provided by government. I guess the answer that not all there is a demand for space that can't be met by the private sector.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has conceded that his government's approach may need tweaking. Still, one of his first acts in power was to cancel $5 billion in promised Liberal child-care funding as of March 31, 2007.

The important part of the article is at the very end:

"We've got caught up somehow in thinking that governments should create day care. And that's wrong."

Graham said new centres wind up poaching from the 600 private and non-profit members that her group represents.

"We can't even retain the staff we've got because we're in direct competition with the government-created day cares. We're constantly losing."

Provinces that blame the federal Conservatives for child-care cuts, as the B.C. government recently did, should be held to account, Graham added.

"Too many provinces are not putting any of their own additional money into stabilizing child care. It's children who are becoming the pawns in this political game."

We get back to the same old story - there is only one tax payer - there are only so many dollars to spend. Education is a provincial responsibility. Quebec for example, has chosen to spend tax dollars on childcare. Harper has it right - settle the fiscal imbalance, put money in the right hands and let provinces, cities and communities establish their own priorities based on their own unique needs. The Liberals Childcare plan was nothing more than giving money to the provinces - of course they would take it! But in reality, the one billion per year from Ottawa would only account for 10-15% of childcare needs across the country according to the activists. Let's not even start to think about CUPE getting involved. So we'd end up with another Healthcare situation with constant arguing over funding and juristiction - and Liberal governments "riding to the rescue" at election time. The Conservative approach does not really intrude on Provincial juristiction - it uses the Federal tax system to try to encourage employers and communities to build centers. It's not working right now but maybe it can be modified to get businesses moving. That, in conjunction with the Fiscal imbalance might start us on the road.

[M.Dancer]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070122/...ries_child_care

I know some Tories here will ask why daycare space should be provided by government. I guess the answer that not all there is a demand for space that can't be met by the private sector.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has conceded that his government's approach may need tweaking. Still, one of his first acts in power was to cancel $5 billion in promised Liberal child-care funding as of March 31, 2007.

I would be surprised except I'm cynical enough to believe that Harper never had any intention of creating new spaces as this would not be in keeping with his social conservative agenda.

[Topaz]

Wasn't the Cons plan for daycare was to pay $100 per month to families, tax it back and let others create the day care but take the credit for forming them????????

[Ricki Bobbi]

Wasn't the Cons plan for daycare was to pay $100 per month to families, tax it back and let others create the day care but take the credit for forming them????????

Not even close. The majority of the money ends up in the hands of paretns *after-tax*.

There plan was to give businesses credit for creating spaces. Not take credit for it.

They have to create better incentives to get businesses to create spaces.

[M.Dancer]

Wasn't the Cons plan for daycare was to pay $100 per month to families, tax it back and let others create the day care but take the credit for forming them????????

Not even close. The majority of the money ends up in the hands of paretns *after-tax*.

There plan was to give businesses credit for creating spaces. Not take credit for it.

They have to create better incentives to get businesses to create spaces.

Actually no...if you are in a 40% tax bracket...you are left with around $60 to give to the sitter so you can go out and have a night courtesy of the Canadian Tax Payer....(which is yourself)

But lets not kid ourselves...no one is saying "Hey" I got a $100. I can afford daycare know and go back to work!!!

[jdobbin]

We get back to the same old story - there is only one tax payer - there are only so many dollars to spend. Education is a provincial responsibility. Quebec for example, has chosen to spend tax dollars on childcare. Harper has it right - settle the fiscal imbalance, put money in the right hands and let provinces, cities and communities establish their own priorities based on their own unique needs. The Liberals Childcare plan was nothing more than giving money to the provinces - of course they would take it! But in reality, the one billion per year from Ottawa would only account for 10-15% of childcare needs across the country according to the activists. Let's not even start to think about CUPE getting involved. So we'd end up with another Healthcare situation with constant arguing over funding and juristiction - and Liberal governments "riding to the rescue" at election time. The Conservative approach does not really intrude on Provincial juristiction - it uses the Federal tax system to try to encourage employers and communities to build centers. It's not working right now but maybe it can be modified to get businesses moving. That, in conjunction with the Fiscal imbalance might start us on the road.

Is daycare a provincial responsibility? Is it education? What makes you say so? How do you think private business will step forward? Most don't now.

And let's not forget that Harper did say he was going to create daycare spaces not that the provinces were going to do it.

[margrace]

We get back to the same old story - there is only one tax payer - there are only so many dollars to spend. Education is a provincial responsibility. Quebec for example, has chosen to spend tax dollars on childcare. Harper has it right - settle the fiscal imbalance, put money in the right hands and let provinces, cities and communities establish their own priorities based on their own unique needs. The Liberals Childcare plan was nothing more than giving money to the provinces - of course they would take it! But in reality, the one billion per year from Ottawa would only account for 10-15% of childcare needs across the country according to the activists. Let's not even start to think about CUPE getting involved. So we'd end up with another Healthcare situation with constant arguing over funding and juristiction - and Liberal governments "riding to the rescue" at election time. The Conservative approach does not really intrude on Provincial juristiction - it uses the Federal tax system to try to encourage employers and communities to build centers. It's not working right now but maybe it can be modified to get businesses moving. That, in conjunction with the Fiscal imbalance might start us on the road.

Is daycare a provincial responsibility? Is it education? What makes you say so? How do you think private business will strp forward? Most don't now.

And let's not forget that Harper did say he was going to create daycare spaces not that the provinces were going to do it.

But Ontario has announced more funding for day care in the Barrie area I think. Does anyone else know about this it was on the news

[jdobbin]

But Ontario has announced more funding for day care in the Barrie area I think. Does anyone else know about this it was on the news

Ontario's announcements are different from the Federal government's announcements of creating daycare space. Are the Feds claiming they gave Ontario the money?

[Who's Doing What?]

So they cancelled a $5billion dollar program to create actual spaces, and then since July, the Govt has spent $1.2billion on Jack Sh!t.

Explain to me again how this is better?

[Ricki Bobbi]

So they cancelled a $5billion dollar program to create actual spaces, and then since July, the Govt has spent $1.2billion on Jack Sh!t.

Explain to me again how this is better?

$3.8 Billion saved???

People who choose to stay at home or have family members help provide childcare aren't forced to subsidized people who make different choices???

[geoffrey]

Not even close. The majority of the money ends up in the hands of paretns *after-tax*.

There plan was to give businesses credit for creating spaces. Not take credit for it.

They have to create better incentives to get businesses to create spaces.

Actually no...if you are in a 40% tax bracket...you are left with around $60 to give to the sitter so you can go out and have a night courtesy of the Canadian Tax Payer....(which is yourself)

But lets not kid ourselves...no one is saying "Hey" I got a $100. I can afford daycare know and go back to work!!!

RB said a majority of funds and 60% is a majority last time I checked.

As well, the money should be considered to be taxed at the lowest rate as credits are applied at the lowest rate. We should be consistent in dealing with that. Or even better, bring in a flat tax, but I'm dreaming.

I don't think I should pay for anyone's childcare really. I think the CPC went too far in doing the little that they did.

$100 per child was more than the Liberals expected to pay in their plan. Now, I'd have to suggest your on some mighty fine drugs if you think a child centre for 50 kids can be run off less than $5000 a month. The Liberal plan would have cost many times what they had budgeted, common sense or finance will tell you that, no matter which method you use to figure it out.

[Keepitsimple]

We get back to the same old story - there is only one tax payer - there are only so many dollars to spend. Education is a provincial responsibility. Quebec for example, has chosen to spend tax dollars on childcare. Harper has it right - settle the fiscal imbalance, put money in the right hands and let provinces, cities and communities establish their own priorities based on their own unique needs. The Liberals Childcare plan was nothing more than giving money to the provinces - of course they would take it! But in reality, the one billion per year from Ottawa would only account for 10-15% of childcare needs across the country according to the activists. Let's not even start to think about CUPE getting involved. So we'd end up with another Healthcare situation with constant arguing over funding and juristiction - and Liberal governments "riding to the rescue" at election time. The Conservative approach does not really intrude on Provincial juristiction - it uses the Federal tax system to try to encourage employers and communities to build centers. It's not working right now but maybe it can be modified to get businesses moving. That, in conjunction with the Fiscal imbalance might start us on the road.

Is daycare a provincial responsibility? Is it education? What makes you say so? How do you think private business will step forward? Most don't now.

And let's not forget that Harper did say he was going to create daycare spaces not that the provinces were going to do it.

Well, there's a couple of ways to look at it. If you look at what the Liberals called their "Program" - it was Early Childhood Learning - that would be Education which is a provincial juristiction. The reality as I said earlier is that the Liberals actually had no plan - they just promised money to the provinces - to be spent as they each thought best as long as it was in some way related to Childcare. It was simply a money transfer - Harper is trying to address this through the Fiscal Imbalance. Most provinces already have forms of childcare with Quebec of course, being at the forefront.....but I know that Ontario and BC have taken steps to provide government funded spaces. I don't know what other provinces are doing but there's also a lot of private daycare and I think some of those are subsidized to some degree.

As for a better incentive for businesses - I'm not sure. I know it's a good idea but it's not working right now - something more is needed. Look at all the big companies out there - the Banks, Bell, Telus. It would be wonderful if families could combine working and having their children close at hand. The plan currently calls for the government to provide $10,000 (a grant I believe) for the creation of each daycare spot. I think that's geared to fund the "infrastructure".....but then the company has to fund the operating costs - I think that's the fly in the ointment. In addition to businesses, I believe these grants can also be used by non-profit community groups. I think the total pool of funds is $250 million per year. I think it could work but most of the funding should come from the provinces after the fiscal imbalance is sorted out. The provinces are in a better position to focus help where help is needed - and again, education is their responsibility.

[jdobbin]

Well, there's a couple of ways to look at it. If you look at what the Liberals called their "Program" - it was Early Childhood Learning - that would be Education which is a provincial juristiction. The reality as I said earlier is that the Liberals actually had no plan - they just promised money to the provinces - to be spent as they each thought best as long as it was in some way related to Childcare. It was simply a money transfer - Harper is trying to address this through the Fiscal Imbalance. Most provinces already have forms of childcare with Quebec of course, being at the forefront.....but I know that Ontario and BC have taken steps to provide government funded spaces. I don't know what other provinces are doing but there's also a lot of private daycare and I think some of those are subsidized to some degree.

This isn't an issue about to go away. The Feds said they were going to do something about it and so far they have not rolled out a national program. I am not entirely sure that it falls under education when children are under six years old. And if it is an education program, why doesn't it come under provincial education programs?

[Ricki Bobbi]

This isn't an issue about to go away. The Feds said they were going to do something about it and so far they have not rolled out a national program. I am not entirely sure that it falls under education when children are under six years old. And if it is an education program, why doesn't it come under provincial education programs?

The Liberals did nothing about it in 13 years in power.

The Dryden plan was ineffective.

Scott Reid belittle the Conservative plan and in so doing helped the Conservatives win the election...

[geoffrey]

It really is a provincial area of jurisdiction though.

Canada would have been much better served by income splliting, or a general major tax cut of equal value to the program.

Again, special interests and niches of voters rules the day.

[jdobbin]

It really is a provincial area of jurisdiction though.

Canada would have been much better served by income splliting, or a general major tax cut of equal value to the program.

Again, special interests and niches of voters rules the day.

I don't know that I have heard provinces assert their authority in this area. Has Alberta?

[geoffrey]

Quebec has. They are allowed to keep the money they would have got under the Liberal plan if it panned out.

Another billion dollar transfer to Quebec, at the rest of Canada's expense.

[hiti]

Contrary to what conservatives are trying to spin, the Liberal plan for early child learning and care was an excellent plan that would have benefited so many families. And Steve can erase all the government information off it's web site that it wants but the internet has footprints.

The agreement that Ken Dryden, on behalf of the Federal Government, signed with the Alberta government is here. As you all can read, it was/is a very good program. Much better than the $100 for children under age 6, which is not childcare but the old family allowance for extra beer and popcorn money.

The failure of Steve's beer and popcorn money is glaringly apparent. And just as happened in Ontario under Mike Harris's grand child care scheme where private business would build all these spaces (not) so too Steve's flop is just that .... a flop.

[Who's Doing What?]

So they cancelled a $5billion dollar program to create actual spaces, and then since July, the Govt has spent $1.2billion on Jack Sh!t.

Explain to me again how this is better?

$3.8 Billion saved???

People who choose to stay at home or have family members help provide childcare aren't forced to subsidized people who make different choices???

It is not 3.8 billion saved.

It's been just 1/2 a year. So at the end of a full year it will have cost 2.4 billion and have produced no new spaces. Incase you are unaware, new spaces is what is needed.

So really, in the first year the CPC will have spent 2.4 billion dollars without even addressing the problem. How is that better? It actually sounds pretty much like the ineffectiveness the CPC was bashing the Liberals over in the last election.

[Melanie_]

The Conservatives don't have a child care plan at all, they just reinstated the Family Allowance. They made a promise they have no idea how to deliver on when they talked about incentives for businesses to start up daycares - is every Canadian Tire in the country going to have its own little worksite child care centre, only for the use of its employees? Anyway, businesses aren't interested in taking up the offer.

Build Child Care.ca

We know that capital money alone to employers does little or nothing to create sustainable ELCC programs. Incentives to employers are not the answer for early learning and child care. In 1998, Ontario introduced the Workplace Child Care Tax Incentive, which provided a 30% tax deduction for qualifying expenses for corporations and a 5% refundable tax credit for unincorporated businesses. No centres were created under the initiative. New Brunswick, Manitoba and Saskatchewan also had at one time small capital grants for workplace child care ranging from a $5,000 start-up grant in New Brunswick to a $75,000-per-centre

grant in Manitoba). None of these had any take-up. 15

~snip~

In June 2006, the Globe and Mail Report on Business published the results of its C-Suite Survey14, a quarterly poll of 150 senior company officials and found that 75% say they are unlikely to take up the new federal budget’s corporate tax credit of up to $10,000 for new child care spaces.

The money the Liberals gave for child care will come to an end in April of 2007, and the Conservative plan of 125,000 new spaces is nowhere on the horizon. They are already 25,000 spaces behind on the promised timelines.

[jefferiah]

Who says Ken Dryden was right anyway? Public daycare will serve to create the need for public daycare. No doubt about it. They will even promote it as being better for the kid. "We must institutionalize them 2 year olds before its too late."

[Melanie_]

If we are concerned about institutionalized daycare, we should be working hard to stop the privatization of the industry. The largest daycare chain in the world, ABC Learning Centre, operates in Australia but has recently expanded to the US. The owner of the chain is a Canadian, who would love to start up some Walmart sized cookie cutter daycares back home. Institutionalized daycare would see curriculum set in Brisbane, and profits sent to Brisbane. We can also expect licensing regulations to be influence by large companies, rather than by what is in the best interests of the children. This is a huge industry, and once we open up the private sector fully, this is what we can expect.

ABC Learning is also using its considerable financial resources to support challenges to regulations governing childcare and enforcing vicarious liability on the company.

Wikipedia

On the other hand, public, non profit centres are generally run by parent boards of directors, who have the mandate to hire or fire the director of the program, and who oversee policy and budget. Parents are the final authority in a non profit centre (at least this is the way the system is set up in Manitoba). As non profit corporations, all income is put back into the program and salaries, rather than going to the pocket of the owner (private model). Parent fees are lower because there isn't a drive for profits, and staff are better paid as well.

[Drea]

Jefferiah, it's not about "institutionalizing" children. Please, take off your "Liberals are commies" tinfoil hat.

It's about making it easier for families to find daycare spaces, which is a problem in some areas of the country.

[jefferiah]

No hat on. Liberals are commies.