O'Connor on the Afghan War

[Army Guy]

Jenna:

FLQ is propaganda

Watch the police state rise now, as these criminal gang members "pose a severe threat to our freedoms"

Of course you have proof of that, or is Quebec just trying to cash in on thier rights. Terrorism is a very serious threat, when all it takes is one person to effect the lives of millions.

This entire war is a total set up, with vast amounts of people dying for no reason, other than to generate profits for the already wealthy...

How is it a set up ?, No, vast amonts are not dieing, WWII and the NAZI regime that was vast amounts in fact more people die in traffic accidents, or by smoking, or by breast cancer here in Canada every year,

all for no reason...and whom in Canada is benifiting from our countries involvement in Afgan.

As a member of the military, you should look into what exactly youre fighting for

Funney you mention that, before going over to Afgan i did do alot of research on Afgan etc etc and thought at that time i had a fairly good reason for going over and trying to help rebuild thier nation, to give something Canadian to a people who have alot less than our poorest....

But it was shortly before op Mudusa i had the priviledge of sharing my lunch with a little Afgan girl, i had to some what assist her with eating, because the Taliban cut off her hands, her only crime was going to school. She was force to watch as the taliban murdered her father, for the same crime by slowly cutting off his head...

before she had finshed her lunch, she got up and gave me a hug, thanking me for coming to Afgan so she could continue living out her fathers dream of her getting an education. This little girl was only 5 at the time the taliban took her hands and her fathers life...I also want to mention that the taliban punish every Afgan whom is seen talking to us, and yet she took that risk to sit down and talk with me and to give me that hug. I have 2 girls of my own so her actions have effected me deeply, it is these actions and emotions that have driven me thru countless fire fights and engagements.

Every soldier has different reasons for being here, and i have boiled mine down to the above one. I'm i proud of what i'm doing Yes i am, Am i proud of what my country is doing Yes i am, Am i remorseful at killing taliban yes i am but i'm learning to live with that , would i come back yes i would.

Maybe it's not me that should be looking into exactly what we are fighting for, it is you.

[jdobbin]

Kabul is still risky, but nothing like down here in the south ,It's not Kabul they wanted to go it was around our AO here.

Perhaps i could see your piont if there was something majorily wrong with the MDND reports, or they were false, out of date etc etc ...but is it worth risking lives again for the same info. Do we all have to place our hands on a hot oven surface to find out it is hot.... And where do we draw the line, how many of these dog and pony shows do we have to entertain before all that are concerned comes to the same conclusion as the first report filled.

Numbers is a factor yes, i've tried to make this clear while staying within op sec, for 10 pers it is a major operation, that requires days of planning and excuting, many more lifes are put at risk to accomplish what getting the same info...i do not see the gain here, i'm i missing something, I agree with you the Canadian public does need to know what is going on here, but not at the cost of lives or the risk of lives getting the same info..

First hand knowledge is avail thru daily reports done by the military and the diplomatic sources with the PRT.

you are aware better than i who in the Harper cabinet as been here, as i'm ussaully stuck in the toolies. but the PM, MDND, Mr Mackay, CDS have all been over serveral times. each vist is fully documanted and filled and available thru chanels...your making it sound like the info is not trust worthy.

No not first choice, i think that the people need to be inform from other sources other than the media....But again where do you draw the line. when do we say enough, will it take someone dieing.

The committee did want to go to Kabul. All of last year they wanted to do but were forbidden from going by the minister. It should be of interest to note that O'Connor wanted to go to Kabul with the committee in 2005 but was forbidden by the Liberal minister. I disagreed with keeping the Defence committee out of the city then too.

Do you think that the Liberal minister was giving a satisfactory report back to Parliament and there was no need for O'Connor to go?

You see the problem with your argument is that it is limited to the party in power. We have a have multi-party Parliamentary system. Anyone of the yahoos you don't want to go to Afghanistan could very well be the next Defence minister if there is a snap election. Doesn't it make sense that they know what the hell is going on rather than getting it filtered by the party in power?

[weaponeer]

Armyguy,

The reason why these people are complaining about this issue is that the gov't, DND, MND, CDS etc, has not been reporting what they want to hear.

They have not reported that we are loosing, the Afghanis hate us, we are kiilling civilians etc.. All the BS they think is going on, the things they want to hear to validate their positions. If a gov't, or any other deligation goes over & reports back positive things, these peoiple do NOT want to hear that, so they scream about "not being told the truth".

[weaponeer]

jdobbin,

Although I do understand what you are saying I disagree. Thes people are only there for photo ops. As I have stated before, I have been in theatre when these "fact finding tours" show up. They are a royal pain, they risk lives for no gain. We have means in place to report back to Canada what is going on. The prob is trust, nobody trust us to do our job, or the gov't orgs to do theirs.

As for the "next MND". That person, whom ever it may be can go over once elected & appointed MND. Anyone in parliment could theoretically be the next MND. That's a lot of "fact finders".

These people on the extreme left do not like the military, soldiers or anything like that. They have preconceved notions of what we are about, and what we are. They are prejudice bigots toward the military, plain & simple. We could thell them the sky was blue, they would not believe it because a "soldier" told them.

as a airmen, I feel I owe them no explination.

[jdobbin]

Armyguy,

The reason why these people are complaining about this issue is that the gov't, DND, MND, CDS etc, has not been reporting what they want to hear.

They have not reported that we are loosing, the Afghanis hate us, we are kiilling civilians etc.. All the BS they think is going on, the things they want to hear to validate their positions. If a gov't, or any other deligation goes over & reports back positive things, these peoiple do NOT want to hear that, so they scream about "not being told the truth".

I think it is too narrow a criticism. As I said, I am no fan of the NDP but they do raise issues on how soldiers are treated in hospitals, the benefits they receive, pay packages for combat versus non-combat and the like. All useful stuff.

The Liberals are the ones that sent the troops to Kandahar and probably would like to see for themselves that is a mission achieving its goals so that they can point to the fact they made the right decision.

Canada has a Parliamentary system. If the military has hostility to political parties other than the Conservatives, it doesn't serve them well. The Defence committee in a minority government holds the power over the government. Win them over rather than hold them at bay. They won't take the minister at his word because they don't want to receive filtered information. They want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

[jdobbin]

jdobbin,

Although I do understand what you are saying I disagree. Thes people are only there for photo ops. As I have stated before, I have been in theatre when these "fact finding tours" show up. They are a royal pain, they risk lives for no gain. We have means in place to report back to Canada what is going on. The prob is trust, nobody trust us to do our job, or the gov't orgs to do theirs.

As for the "next MND". That person, whom ever it may be can go over once elected & appointed MND. Anyone in parliment could theoretically be the next MND. That's a lot of "fact finders".

These people on the extreme left do not like the military, soldiers or anything like that. They have preconceved notions of what we are about, and what we are. They are prejudice bigots toward the military, plain & simple. We could thell them the sky was blue, they would not believe it because a "soldier" told them.

as a airmen, I feel I owe them no explination.

It is not the soldiers that they don't trust. It is the political spin a minister can put on information. The committee works in the dark. They can just as easily torpedo the mission from a boardroom in Ottawa if they feel they are not getting the full picture.

Make sure they get the full picture.

If the military openly sides with the Conservatives, it doesn't serve them well.

Explain the risks, don't endanger your lives but makes sure that committee sees your work through their own eyes wherever and whenever possible.

One thing I know is that were I the PM or the Defence minister, I'd bloody well make sure that the Defence committee was able to do their job. I honestly think a soldier's life depends on it. The last thing I'd want to hear is only yes men when lives are at stake.

[weaponeer]

My criticism was directed to some of the posters here, not political parties. The NDP concern over the military is hollow jdobbin. They bring up issues like pensions, OK, not bad, we are already treated well in hospitals. The danger pay issue, when you are taken out of the "danger zone", technically you are no longer eligable. When your are wounded and evac'd, at some point you will loose that extra pay, that just the way it goes. It is not heartless, those of us not in "danger" do not qual for the extra pay.

They were using the military to make the gov't look bad.

Now, if Jack was jumping up & down screaming "we need new tanks, we need new JSF fighters", then my opinion might change......

[weaponeer]

I understand how you feel, they should see the whole picture, but refer to what armyguy said, IT'S NOT IF WE GET HIT, BUT WHEN!!!

Mrs Bloggins, we regret to inform you of the death of your son, killed in action while escorting Ujjwal to a photo op, so he could get the "whole picture".

Or, we must inform the Canadian people that Ujjwal was blown assunder while obtaining the "facts".

We know the talibs are there, we know what they want, we know what has to be done, lets do it. As for the military being friendly with the CPC, I see your point, but the CPC is the only party in my memory that has shown any interest or concern for the CF...... We, the rank & file troops see that, and appreciate it....

[jdobbin]

My criticism was directed to some of the posters here, not political parties. The NDP concern over the military is hollow jdobbin. They bring up issues like pensions, OK, not bad, we are already treated well in hospitals. The danger pay issue, when you are taken out of the "danger zone", technically you are no longer eligable. When your are wounded and evac'd, at some point you will loose that extra pay, that just the way it goes. It is not heartless, those of us not in "danger" do not qual for the extra pay.

They were using the military to make the gov't look bad.

Now, if Jack was jumping up & down screaming "we need new tanks, we need new JSF fighters", then my opinion might change......

As I said, I'm not a fan of the NDP but I am a fan of our Parliament. One of the things I've always believed in was that Parliamentary committees needed some strength to help make government more democratic and effective.

[jdobbin]

I understand how you feel, they should see the whole picture, but refer to what armyguy said, IT'S NOT IF WE GET HIT, BUT WHEN!!!

Mrs Bloggins, we regret to inform you of the death of your son, killed in action while escorting Ujjwal to a photo op, so he could get the "whole picture".

Or, we must inform the Canadian people that Ujjwal was blown assunder while obtaining the "facts".

We know the talibs are there, we know what they want, we know what has to be done, lets do it. As for the military being friendly with the CPC, I see your point, but the CPC is the only party in my memory that has shown any interest or concern for the CF...... We, the rank & file troops see that, and appreciate it....

That story could easily be for escorting the minister. Could it be a photo-op as well so that he can use it in a mail out in his riding during an election campaign to hammer the opposition for "not being there?"

[weaponeer]

Here was a real bonehead move, see I don't always agree with the military...

Oppotubity lost....

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/555879.html

[jdobbin]

Here was a real bonehead move, see I don't always agree with the military...

Oppotubity lost....

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/555879.html

How many points of support have been lost for similar overzealous officers? It isn't just about hearts and minds in Afghanistan but also in Canada.

[Who's Doing What?]

With no other access to medical attention, the father put his son in a wheelbarrow and brought him to the one place he knew he could get help — the Canadian outpost on the edge of the Panjwaii district.

This is the kind of stuff that people need to hear.

[weaponeer]

I AGREE 1000%. Hope they fired that public affairs officer, how dumb....

This is the kind of stuff that happens every day that you folks never hear about or see. Remember armyguys story about the 5 year old girl in another thread.....

[Army Guy]

Do you think that the Liberal minister was giving a satisfactory report back to Parliament and there was no need for O'Connor to go?

That is exactly what i've been saying, these fact finding missions should be kept to the minimum, and only done when nessicary and should not duplicate each other... It's not worth the risk for all involved..Yes i do have a favorite party, but when it comes to lives put at risk there needs to be a valid reason, regardless of who is going..

Some of the questions everyone should be asking is. Do you really think this committee would uncover something new ? And would this info be worth a life ?

It's easy for Canadians sitting at home to agree with your postion, hey even i agree that the Afgan story should be told when ever possiable..but not at the cost of a life..regardless of who's party they are with..i've seen enough death, and have grown very fond of the life i have now, to have it snuff out for a few pictures , no thanks.

You see the problem with your argument is that it is limited to the party in power. We have a have multi-party Parliamentary system. Anyone of the yahoos you don't want to go to Afghanistan could very well be the next Defence minister if there is a snap election. Doesn't it make sense that they know what the hell is going on rather than getting it filtered by the party in power?

I hope that i've cleared that up, party politics does not come into play on the battle field. and that is exactly what it is, one large battle field...As for the next defense minister, then fine he his carrying out his duties as that minister, i would hope that his vist would serve a purpose not just a photo op or to shake a few hands.

A purpose that would be worth the risk.

Canada has a Parliamentary system. If the military has hostility to political parties other than the Conservatives, it doesn't serve them well. The Defence committee in a minority government holds the power over the government. Win them over rather than hold them at bay. They won't take the minister at his word because they don't want to receive filtered information. They want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

I can see your piont, and in most cases like diasters etc i say load up the plane, shit take a friend, take the family...but this is an active war zone with no safe areas...The taliban are a very organized group, with a very good intel gathering capabilities, it would not take them long to find out who has arrived in camp, and when they leave camp...and they would risk alot of people and assets to take out that target..weeks ago the CDS convoy was hit it , even made the papers, he was lucky, we were lucky, that day...

How many points of support have been lost for similar overzealous officers? It isn't just about hearts and minds in Afghanistan but also in Canada.

I also agree with both of you this was a lost opertunity, gone forever. And you are right , and i've said this a million times, the Taliban are not fighting a tactical war, but a stragictic one, fought on our own TV sets, and over everyones opinion...Lose the hearts and minds of the Canadian citizens and we will be leaving afgan for good.