Cuba After Castro

[scribblet]

There seems to be an opinion that once Castro dies, the tyranny will end. Will it, I doubt it, but maybe there is hope... I know that many left wing people think that Cuba is some kind of utopia to which we should look up to e.g. their health care, free education etc.

what say you?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/weekinre...all&oref=slogin

......Several public opinion polls and surveys of Cuban-Americans conducted recently in South Florida and North Jersey show that a declining percentage of the diaspora still dreams of reclaiming houses. This is especially true among the younger generation, whose members never lived in Cuba.

Still, some exiles did sneak out deeds and have fished them out of strongboxes since Fidel became sick. While some undoubtedly will try to reclaim former residences, most want factories, mills and other commercial properties.

“Cubans are not going to fight over the last few crumbling homes,” said Nicolas J. Gutiérrez Jr., a 42-year-old Cuban-American lawyer in Miami who represents many business claimants and for himself seeks the return of two sugar mills, 15 cattle ranches, a food distribution center and more. “Out of the hundreds of people I represent and the thousands I talk to I’ve never met anyone who says he’s going to go back there and kick people out. On a base level, that would be immoral.”

Even so, the fear held by people like Marielena and Francisco matters, having been planted by the regime and nurtured by a controlled press that issues regular warnings about ignoble gusanos ...

This dense cloud of uncertainty has been hanging over Cuba since the summer, when Mr. Castro, who is 80, ceded power to his brother, Raúl, who is 75. For most Cubans, the fear of the future has little to do with who eventually replaces “El Commandante.” Rather, most are consumed by the contradiction between longing for change and fearing that change will come.....

[jbg]

Unfortunately, with the possible and partial exception of Spain and Chile, Spanish-speaking countries have not been fertile ground for democracy. Even in countries that choose their leaders by election, populist, pandering and often kleptocratic authorities reign. Even Mexico is having trouble getting the hang of honoring election results.

I generally believe that English-speaking and Scandinavian countries (and a few other odd ones like Switzerland, or Israel, which is really English-speaking) come close to possessing a hammerlock on democratic traditions.

[Remiel]

“Cubans are not going to fight over the last few crumbling homes,” said Nicolas J. Gutiérrez Jr., a 42-year-old Cuban-American lawyer in Miami who represents many business claimants and for himself seeks the return of two sugar mills, 15 cattle ranches, a food distribution center and more. “Out of the hundreds of people I represent and the thousands I talk to I’ve never met anyone who says he’s going to go back there and kick people out. On a base level, that would be immoral.”

So, in other words, they don't want Cuba, they just want all of Cuba's wealth, and to be its masters once again. They just want the riches and the power. At some level, how does that really make them any different than Castro? Even if you believe Castro is a real villain, that doesn't mean he takes some sick, perverse pleasure in the suffering of others. For him, it would still be about wealth and power.

As long as Cuba is a communist country, those people have no claims. It's a waste of time, money and effort to try and take back their " property " from a country that rejected that system, and the people who ruled over that system. Just because Fidel Castro dies, doesn't mean that the Cuban people are going to suddenly hand over all of that. I mean, come on, two sugar mills, fifteen cattle ranches, a food distribution centre and more, for just one guy?

I hardly think that Cubans are going to wake up one day in the near future and say to themselves, " We want things to go back to the way they were before Castro. We need to give away all of our national assets and get ourselves a new Batista. "

[jbg]

Not to create "thread drift" but the interposition of the rights of third parties that live in houses and operate businesses of people who fled effectively prevents the repatriation of these people to Cuba.

The same prevents "Palestinians" from returning to Israel. And the same prevented Jews who survived the concentration camps from returning to their homes. The latter necessitated the formation of the State of Israel.

Now, back to El Cubanos.

[Liam]

Not to create "thread drift" but the interposition of the rights of third parties that live in houses and operate businesses of people who fled effectively prevents the repatriation of these people to Cuba.

Interesting. I agree with you to an extent. I don't think that people continued to live in the buildings they once owned but abandoned them when they fled for Miami should have much a of a claim. However, landowners disposessed of their land and relocated by the Castro regime who then later fled should be able to get back what was theirs.

[Borg]

What will most likely happen is a general with some old tanks and a few machine guns will impose his rule upon the country.

Cubans in Miami will dance in the streets - but do not be surprized if they are not allowed to return to the island.

The new ruler will most likely be quite happy to continue with the way things are at present.

I doubt democracy or any other type of "friendly" rule will take place.

In fact I would bet there are some serious dealings taking place within the military - and at the highest levels as I write. Someone will want to be the head honcho - and you can be sure it will not happen by election.

The guns and ammo are not in the hands of the people - the guns and ammo are in the hands of the future rulers.

A few weeks of chaos and the tourists can go back to subsidizing the Cuban elite - while thinking they are actually helping the Cuban worker..

Borg

[margrace]

What will most likely happen is a general with some old tanks and a few machine guns will impose his rule upon the country.

Cubans in Miami will dance in the streets - but do not be surprized if they are not allowed to return to the island.

The new ruler will most likely be quite happy to continue with the way things are at present.

I doubt democracy or any other type of "friendly" rule will take place.

In fact I would bet there are some serious dealings taking place within the military - and at the highest levels as I write. Someone will want to be the head honcho - and you can be sure it will not happen by election.

The guns and ammo are not in the hands of the people - the guns and ammo are in the hands of the future rulers.

A few weeks of chaos and the tourists can go back to subsidizing the Cuban elite - while thinking they are actually helping the Cuban worker..

Borg

The Cuba that most Canadians see is of course much different than the reality, however no one is starving, they have developed a strong natural medical system, the people are living simply but communism does take a way the incentive to improve one's self. They would like to be more free but they obviously do not want the prostitution, crime and such that was rampant before Castro. We have Cuban friends that are now allowed to come and go. They can give you a far better insight into what Cuba is like than American opportunism.

[Borg]

Yes margrace - you can continue to wear those rose coloured Canuck glasses.

No one is starving. Good. It is after all a tropical island - climb a tree and pick a coconut? The monkies in the San Diego zoo are not starving either. Medical? Well we are told a good story but we will see.

Lovely words - "however no one is starving" - in other words accept your imprisonment and be happy you eat. How typically Canadian.

As for traveling outside the country I can assure you those are the upper crust folks that are visiting you - how did they get that position? Not your every day worker - rest assured.

As I stated it is rare that one terrorist leader is not replaced with another. I suspect we will see very shortly.

I wonder which general will be the start of it all?

In the meantimne - we keep propping up that dictatorship with Canadian tourist money and justifying it by saying things like your words.

As for what the locals want - how do you know? Your travelers tell you? I will bet they do not spend hours a day in the cane fields.

Judging from the average daily wages in Cuba these folks must be doing VERY well to be able to afford the foreign travel. Not like in your own country - where anyone can get on a plane at any time and go WHEREVER they wish.

I suspect you conveniently ignore that.

Borg

[scribblet]

The Cuba that most Canadians see is of course much different than the reality, however no one is starving, they have developed a strong natural medical system, the people are living simply but communism does take a way the incentive to improve one's self. They would like to be more free but they obviously do not

want the prostitution, crime and such that was rampant before Castro. We have Cuban friends that are now Callowed to come and go. They can give you a far better insight into what Cuba is like than American opportunism.

Oh sure, the great communist Utopia, go as a tourist and you'll see food and opulence, while Cubans scratch for an existence with their ration cards. Castro and his repressive regime is responsible for Cuban poverty. "Castro and his gang of course are millionaires

There is much deprivation existing in Cuba, homegrown at that. Gee, a country renowned for producing sugar has to ration sugar for its own people. People cannot 'get ahead' over there, their salaries are set and paid by the gov't, a doctor over there only makes maybe a 100 pesos a month more than a teacher who might make 50 pesos a month more than a cleaner. I've been there more than once and I've spoken at length with Cubans.

Like most people I believe its time for the U.S. to lift its boycott but Cuba is free to trade with the rest of the world, and Cuba is the most politically repressed country in the Western hemisphere.

"Sure, we are poor and starving, but we put on a mean band-aid if you need it!!"

http://www.therealcuba.com/Poverty.htm

http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1659.cfm

"that great Communist Utopia of Cuba"

A utopia with beggars

[Remiel]

What exactly did Castro do that makes him a " terrorist " ? It's freely using the word do describe everyone that keeps it from having any real meaning.

[Borg]

What exactly did Castro do that makes him a " terrorist " ? It's freely using the word do describe everyone that keeps it from having any real meaning.

Yes you are correct - despite sending all of those Cuban military advisors around the world and "assisting the poor" in their various wars - for some reason he is God-like to the leftists of the world.

Canadian soldiers have had the pleasure of "arguing" with his advisors over the years in some of the nicer places of the world.

Most Canuckleheads would not even know or care about this - as long as the Cubans have cheap hotels and white sand beaches to visit.

So I will take it back if only to keep you happy. Even though he was little better than that little short ass Arafat.

Will you at least admit he is a dictator?

Soon to be among the dead if all goes well.

Visit this site for some light entertainment. (Sarcasm) http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm

Borg

[Remiel]

How exactly do you think you are going to convince anyone that biased " left-wingers " are *completely* wrong, by showing them websites that are just as heavily biased as anything they believe? It would be like going to one of PolyNewbie's websites and taking the garbage for truth.

In any case, I didn't ask for proof that Castro was a bad guy, I asked for proof that he was a terrorist. Except, that word doesn't really mean jack any more because it has been so badly subverted by Bush's posse and their ardent supporters like you.

[Borg]

How exactly do you think you are going to convince anyone that biased " left-wingers " are *completely* wrong, by showing them websites that are just as heavily biased as anything they believe? It would be like going to one of PolyNewbie's websites and taking the garbage for truth.

In any case, I didn't ask for proof that Castro was a bad guy, I asked for proof that he was a terrorist. Except, that word doesn't really mean jack any more because it has been so badly subverted by Bush's posse and their ardent supporters like you.

Do not be obtuse.

I already told you I took back the statement.

I also told you he was heavily involved in military ops around the world. He sent his boys to stir the socialist plot - all one has to do is look into Canadian military history to see where we bumped up against him.

Ethiopia, Mozambique, Rhodesia, Nicaragua, Angola, Somalia, Iran, Angola and so on.

You are so typically Canadian.

The web site is one of many - if you disapprove that is your problem.

What makes you believe I am a Bush supporter?

He is not of my country and my opinion of him matters not one iota. I am certain he cares naught what you and I think of him.

Do you ever get out of your chair and walk past the front door - or is your life experience garnered from your beloved CBC?

Looking for a scrap or looking to show your superior intellect? Ok - you win.

Take care

Borg

[myata]

Didn't US sent their military adivsers to any number of brutal regimes, you surely will brand them "terrorist" on that ? Or is it a one-way street?

[Remiel]

Sorry, in my skimming I didn't notice your retraction.

[Borg]

Didn't US sent their military adivsers to any number of brutal regimes, you surely will brand them "terrorist" on that ? Or is it a one-way street?

I have never fought against the Yanks - but I have fought with them.

So yes - it is one way - if that is the only thing you would look at.

So you tell me - do you want to spit upon me or do you want to agree that Castro is a dictator - a terrorist and the country will be better off when he is dead.

If he is not - then tell me what he is.

I have answered you - now you answer me.

Also - what will you do when another dictator takes over from this one.

Fact is the Cubans live a life that is behind a fence. If they try to leave they die.

The vast majority of people in Canuckleland do not get it and continue to spend their money in this country.

Borg

[margrace]

Yes margrace - you can continue to wear those rose coloured Canuck glasses.

No one is starving. Good. It is after all a tropical island - climb a tree and pick a coconut? The monkies in the San Diego zoo are not starving either. Medical? Well we are told a good story but we will see.

Lovely words - "however no one is starving" - in other words accept your imprisonment and be happy you eat. How typically Canadian.

As for traveling outside the country I can assure you those are the upper crust folks that are visiting you - how did they get that position? Not your every day worker - rest assured.

As I stated it is rare that one terrorist leader is not replaced with another. I suspect we will see very shortly.

I wonder which general will be the start of it all?

In the meantimne - we keep propping up that dictatorship with Canadian tourist money and justifying it by saying things like your words.

As for what the locals want - how do you know? Your travelers tell you? I will bet they do not spend hours a day in the cane fields.

Judging from the average daily wages in Cuba these folks must be doing VERY well to be able to afford the foreign travel. Not like in your own country - where anyone can get on a plane at any time and go WHEREVER they wish.

I suspect you conveniently ignore that.

Borg

What a load of crap, have you ever visited the back country, my friends son worked there and he married a girl from there. Yes they need more freedom but what you are saying is pure American propaganda.

[myata]

So yes - it is one way - if that is the only thing you would look at.

No need to answer that one, as you already did all the work. You can call anyone any name you like. Of course, it's all relative to who and where you are and have little (if any) meaning for others.

[Borg]

Yes margrace - you can continue to wear those rose coloured Canuck glasses.

No one is starving. Good. It is after all a tropical island - climb a tree and pick a coconut? The monkies in the San Diego zoo are not starving either. Medical? Well we are told a good story but we will see.

Lovely words - "however no one is starving" - in other words accept your imprisonment and be happy you eat. How typically Canadian.

As for traveling outside the country I can assure you those are the upper crust folks that are visiting you - how did they get that position? Not your every day worker - rest assured.

As I stated it is rare that one terrorist leader is not replaced with another. I suspect we will see very shortly.

I wonder which general will be the start of it all?

In the meantimne - we keep propping up that dictatorship with Canadian tourist money and justifying it by saying things like your words.

As for what the locals want - how do you know? Your travelers tell you? I will bet they do not spend hours a day in the cane fields.

Judging from the average daily wages in Cuba these folks must be doing VERY well to be able to afford the foreign travel. Not like in your own country - where anyone can get on a plane at any time and go WHEREVER they wish.

I suspect you conveniently ignore that.

Borg

What a load of crap, have you ever visited the back country, my friends son worked there and he married a girl from there. Yes they need more freedom but what you are saying is pure American propaganda.

margrace - where I have been and what I have done - while it might surprise you - is of no concern - for if it was I could fabricate it quite easily and you could not disprove it.

You are simply another Canadian apologist who has buried her head far up her rectum.

I am not American and I do not pretend to speak for them.

I also am not so blind that I cannot see what you are.

If the truth hurts margrace then I suggest you take up the cross or the sword and change things.

Or you can sit home and pontificate. Proving your worth as a citizen of this country.

Borg

[Borg]

So yes - it is one way - if that is the only thing you would look at.

No need to answer that one, as you already did all the work. You can call anyone any name you like. Of course, it's all relative to who and where you are and have little (if any) meaning for others.

Have I called you a name? If I have I am sorry - but I do not think I have.

I noticed you have not seen fit to answer my question despite my completely honest answer to you. You live a life of ease and may never have sweated or blistered - perhaps that life of ease has also dampened your honour?

Another example of a fine Canadian citizen?

Over to you.

Borg

[margrace]

Borg

What a load of crap, have you ever visited the back country, my friends son worked there and he married a girl from there. Yes they need more freedom but what you are saying is pure American propaganda.

margrace - where I have been and what I have done - while it might surprise you - is of no concern - for if it was I could fabricate it quite easily and you could not disprove it.

You are simplay another Canadian apologist who has buried her head far up her rectum.

I am not American and I do not pretend to speak for them.

I also am not so blind that I cannot see what you are.

If the truth hurts margrace then I suggest you take up the cross or the sword and change things.

Or you can sit home and pontificate. Proving your worth as a citizen of this country.

Borg

Interesting that you call anyone who disagrees with you names and resort to coarse language. Is this you way of debating?

[Borg]

margrace

What is next - you planning to play the race card? You are so funny - so pompous and so Canadian.

Truth hurt?

Do something about it.

I hardly think this could be considered coarse - but than again perhaps you have led a tender life - if so I apologize.

But if you cannot debate then you need to stay out of the kitchen.

So - to change things go take up the sword or the cross - either one - and change things - lots of folks have and I admire them - even those politicians I personally dislike - at least they DID something. What have you done lately?

The choice is yours - but are you brave enough to make it - or do you wish to sit at your computer and trade jabs?

You are so predictable. Out of this one - bet we meet again on other threads. Take care my dear.

Borg

[margrace]

margrace

What is next - you planning to play the race card? You are so funny - so pompous and so Canadian.

Truth hurt?

Do something about it.

I hardly think this could be considered coarse - but than again perhaps you have led a tender life - if so I apologize.

But if you cannot debate then you need to stay out of the kitchen.

So - to change things go take up the sword or the cross - either one - and change things - lots of folks have and I admire them - even those politicians I personally dislike - at least they DID something. What have you done lately?

The choice is yours - but are you brave enough to make it - or do you wish to sit at your computer and trade jabs?

You are so predictable. Out of this one - bet we meet again on other threads. Take care my dear.

Borg

You are too kind sir, what is it exactly that you would have me do. What do you do for instance maybe I could join some of your campaigns. It is so easy to judge a person from afar isn't it. Do you for instance collect clothing etc. and send it with people going into Cuba. The Cuban people are very happy to get items they cannot get at home because of the embargoes. Would you belief items such as paring knives, this is what my friends son's mother in law will take back after experiencing a few months in Canada with her daughter.

[myata]

You live a life of ease and may never have sweated or blistered - perhaps that life of ease has also dampened your honour

... and so on

You're wasting your talents here, Borg. With a crystal ball like yours you should be advising the President where and when their next foreign misadventure would happen. Then, if they'd only listen...

[scribblet]

The Cuban people are very happy to get items they cannot get at home because of the embargoes. Would you belief items such as paring knives

What embargoes - there is only one, they are free to trade with the rest of the world. Linking Cuba's problems to the U.S. economic boycott might be a widely shared view, but false. The U.S. may not trade with Cuba, but every other country in the world is free to do so.

Anything Cuba wants to buy it can, from US foreign companies in Europe, or anywhere else, the embargo only punishes USA manufacturers. Communist Party hacks get all they want though, they don't suffer

About 3 years ago Castro decided that all dollars held by Cubans must be exchanged for pesos, with a 10-per-cent surcharge to the state. More hardships for Cubans and the encouragement of a black market in currency.

Cubans have paid a huge price for some health care and education, and Castro's refusal to diversify and trade with nasty capitalists.