Conservatives to deal with Fiscal Imbalance.

[blueblood]

I hope Albertans deal with Harper quickly and send him packing if one more dollar leaves this province after the new deal is made. We pay our fair share, it's time the rest of Canada learns that their economics are failed and develop their own economies. Especially Quebec.

Mulroney took his Western base for granted and so has Harper. Hopefully he'll pay dearly at the ballot box.

I think the new, more mature, Alberta sees how unsuccessful that tactic was for us in 1993.

Do tell us which years were better for Alberta. 1984 to 1993? Or 1993 to 2006?

I have faith that Albertans will reward Harper for the positive steps he has been able to take in the last year.

Unfortunately, there is a serious undertone of impracticality to those people who voted Conservative in the last election who are already planning on abandon him for keeping his word and not breaking out the *secret agenda* that never really existed.

Harper in the PMO may not be perfect for Albertans, but he is better than any of out other options...

93-06 seems better as with the current boom your in. That tactic in 93 is where this CPC comes from. If they mess up, I can see the west pulling the plug on this crew and its back to Liberal gov't until the right smartens up.

[geoffrey]

I think the new, more mature, Alberta sees how unsuccessful that tactic was for us in 1993.

Do tell us which years were better for Alberta. 1984 to 1993? Or 1993 to 2006?

I have faith that Albertans will reward Harper for the positive steps he has been able to take in the last year.

Unfortunately, there is a serious undertone of impracticality to those people who voted Conservative in the last election who are already planning on abandon him for keeping his word and not breaking out the *secret agenda* that never really existed.

Harper in the PMO may not be perfect for Albertans, but he is better than any of out other options...

50% of our resource royalties to Quebec. If your ok with that, check the box next to Stephen J. Harper. Personally I'm not ok with pandering to socialists just to gain power. My life is no different under Chretien or Harper, both are in bed with Quebec, both will do anything to win power through Quebec.

Flat out, do you support tallying 50% of our resource royalties into equalisation so that we can pay for Quebec's extra child care and private clinics while we get neither of the two? You essientially pay for someone else to have better programs than you do.

It's fundamentally wrong and I won't vote for anyone that supports such a measure. We're not talking about a few deals going to Quebec, I could live with that. We're talking about 1% of Canada's GDP in transfers from Alberta and Saskatchewan to Quebec. Realise what this means RB, it sucks for Western Canadians bottom line.

[Saturn]

Flat out, do you support tallying 50% of our resource royalties into equalisation so that we can pay for Quebec's extra child care and private clinics while we get neither of the two? You essientially pay for someone else to have better programs than you do.

You could have much better programs than that if you'd just stop giving away your oil to the Americans and start charging reasonable royalties for it. Why exactly are you far more generous when it comes to the Americans than when it comes to other Canadians? I'm just curious.

It's fundamentally wrong and I won't vote for anyone that supports such a measure. We're not talking about a few deals going to Quebec, I could live with that. We're talking about 1% of Canada's GDP in transfers from Alberta and Saskatchewan to Quebec. Realise what this means RB, it sucks for Western Canadians bottom line.

Saskatchewan is not transferring anything to Quebec. If Saskatchewan has anything to do with equalization, it will be getting money from Alberta and Ontario. Now, I don't know why you get these ideas that Eastern Canada somehow lives on the backs of Western Canada because Ontario pays for most of the equalization transfers and on top of that equalization amounts to a couple of hundred bucks per person per year so it's not like you'll starve as a result of it. On top of that you are getting a real good deal including only half of oil money into the equalization formula - not only do you win the natural resource lottery but also half of it doesn't even count.

[hiti]

Promises kept?

Damn.. but some of those promises would be better not kept. Especially since including half of natural resources in the equalization equation is what Steve is up to.

News quote, 2006-During the election campaign, the Conservatives pledged to change the equalization formula by returning to a 10-province standard and exempting non-renewable resources such as oil and gas — changes that would help Saskatchewan.

News quotes 2007-On Monday, Radio-Canada, CBC's French-language service, was reporting that in its spring budget, the Conservative government will only exclude 50 per cent of natural resource revenues.

The changes, based on recommendations last year from a panel of experts, would also mean an extra $1.5 billion for Quebec. -end quotes

Like, equalization is a problem that Steve created just so he could fix it, even if he had to break a promise to get more Quebec votes. Western Canada, you just don't have enough seats to give Steve a majority.

[geoffrey]

Flat out, do you support tallying 50% of our resource royalties into equalisation so that we can pay for Quebec's extra child care and private clinics while we get neither of the two? You essientially pay for someone else to have better programs than you do.

You could have much better programs than that if you'd just stop giving away your oil to the Americans and start charging reasonable royalties for it. Why exactly are you far more generous when it comes to the Americans than when it comes to other Canadians? I'm just curious.

The oil sands companies create very high paying jobs for Albertans in Alberta. I'm not a believer that a rich government makes rich citizens, Quebec is a fantastic example of that... one of the highest per capita government budgets and one of the lowest income per capitas in North America.

I'd rather have the shareholders of oil companies making a killing than the government.

Saskatchewan is not transferring anything to Quebec. If Saskatchewan has anything to do with equalization, it will be getting money from Alberta and Ontario.

Actually Saskatchewan would become a have province if 50% of non-renewable resources came into the equation.

Now, I don't know why you get these ideas that Eastern Canada somehow lives on the backs of Western Canada because Ontario pays for most of the equalization transfers and on top of that equalization amounts to a couple of hundred bucks per person per year so it's not like you'll starve as a result of it.

Ontario pays a huge deal of it, but they are also 1/3 the population.

A couple hundred bucks a person? Only in Ontario:

Their analysis shows that over more than four decades (1961 to 2002), the net federal fiscal contributions of Albertans have averaged about $2,500 per person per year (or $10,000 per year for a family of four), compared with $758 for each Ontario resident and $428 for each B.C. resident—the other two provinces with positive net federal fiscal contributions during this period.

Source: http://www.ucalgary.ca/oncampus/weekly/nov...berta-pays.html

I've had one of those profs for a few classes by the way...

$10,000 for an average family isn't a pitance my friend. Ontario and BC sure. Not Alberta. And that's from '61 to '02. I've heard current estimates at Alberta around $4k per person and Ontario around $1k per person.

It's no pitance. Equalisation is a major burden on Alberta. Increasing it any further is completely unacceptable.

On top of that you are getting a real good deal including only half of oil money into the equalization formula - not only do you win the natural resource lottery but also half of it doesn't even count.

Wrong. Natural resources are a one time payment. We're actually transfering the inherent value of our land into cash. That cash is ours and not any other provinces. If you into this big Canada as a real nation thing, then I suggest those in the Maritimes get over themselves and move to another part of Canada and get a job, helping us out with our labour shortage.

Equalisation on value added resources is ok with me. EnCana's tax still goes to Ottawa. Applying an additional levy just because they earn their cash from resources is so beyond ridiculous I can't comprehend it.

How much money per capita does Alberta need to give before the East is satisfied? How long until you suggest the Eastern provinces adopt Alberta style pro-business measures and join the 21st century in tax policy? If Newfoundland refuses to earn money because they want free dollars instead (in how they rejected a tasty sweet deal regarding Hibernia today) do we cut them off?

[Catchme]

He raised personal 1% and decreased GST 1%, LOLOLOL

The only example and it was nothing.

Accountability Act - promise kept.

GST cut - promise kept.

Crime Bills - promise kept.

Choice in Childcare - Promise kept.

Pilot project for pediatric wait times guarantee - promise kept.

11,000 acres of farmland sold back to Quebec farmers around Mirabel - promise kept ....

You will probably call all of these nothing.

But that's ok. You'll never vote conservative and you never have.

Accountability Act, is a hatchet job, that actually now makes the PM, MP, and high ranking public officals unaccountable.

There is no choice in childcare, he paid off religious voters with big families for voting for him LOLOLOL

Crime Bills, oh, yes, most assuredly that is important, when 40 Judicial positions have not been filled and people are running around awaiting trials committing more crimes. Just last week a fellow in Vancouver who was released last July and has been waiting trial dates from lack of Judges has been on a assault spree the whole while.

Never ever heard about the Pediatric wait time pilot program being a part of the CPC platform

And the farm land around Mirabelle, uh do you have any idea how long that has been coming forward?

[Saturn]

$10,000 for an average family isn't a pitance my friend. Ontario and BC sure. Not Alberta. And that's from '61 to '02. I've heard current estimates at Alberta around $4k per person and Ontario around $1k per person.

It's no pitance. Equalisation is a major burden on Alberta. Increasing it any further is completely unacceptable.

The average family in Alberta forgoes around $10K through equalization payments to Texans. Oil companies may provide good jobs in Alberta but they can't go anywhere else because that's where the oil is. So since you are spending similar amounts of cash on charity and on equalization, you really can't convince me that equalization payments are a major burden. It's like selling my cottage at half price because I like the buyer and then complaining about having to pay tax on the the gains because I'm broke. Makes no sense.

Natural resources are a one time payment. We're actually transfering the inherent value of our land into cash. That cash is ours and not any other provinces. If you into this big Canada as a real nation thing, then I suggest those in the Maritimes get over themselves and move to another part of Canada and get a job, helping us out with our labour shortage.

Natural resources are just luck. It's just like finding a pile of cash in your back yard. I don't see why natural resource revenue should be treated any differently from any other kind of revenue. But I guess this just goes with the ideology that work should be taxed at the highest rate and other types of revenue that involve no work should be taxed at half the rate. Work bad, sitting on your ass good.

[geoffrey]

The average family in Alberta forgoes around $10K through equalization payments to Texans. Oil companies may provide good jobs in Alberta but they can't go anywhere else because that's where the oil is. So since you are spending similar amounts of cash on charity and on equalization, you really can't convince me that equalization payments are a major burden. It's like selling my cottage at half price because I like the buyer and then complaining about having to pay tax on the the gains because I'm broke. Makes no sense.

Non-sense, Texans send alot of money up here to us. Not the other way around. Sure Texans invest in our projects, but we need that investment. Most Albertans make some money off oil whether directly or indirectly, we aren't selling out to anyone.

Natural resources are just luck. It's just like finding a pile of cash in your back yard. I don't see why natural resource revenue should be treated any differently from any other kind of revenue. But I guess this just goes with the ideology that work should be taxed at the highest rate and other types of revenue that involve no work should be taxed at half the rate. Work bad, sitting on your ass good.

No, Newfoundland is sitting on their ass. They have tons of oil, but refuse to dig it up until the companies give all their money to the government.

[Catchme]

The average family in Alberta forgoes around $10K through equalization payments to Texans. Oil companies may provide good jobs in Alberta but they can't go anywhere else because that's where the oil is. So since you are spending similar amounts of cash on charity and on equalization, you really can't convince me that equalization payments are a major burden. It's like selling my cottage at half price because I like the buyer and then complaining about having to pay tax on the the gains because I'm broke. Makes no sense.

Non-sense, Texans send alot of money up here to us. Not the other way around. Sure Texans invest in our projects, but we need that investment. Most Albertans make some money off oil whether directly or indirectly, we aren't selling out to anyone.

No, Newfoundland is sitting on their ass. They have tons of oil, but refuse to dig it up until the companies give all their money to the government.

Oh yes, I am sure the Texans are shipping up 35 billion a year to Canada all the time!

It is Canadian OIL not Texas OIL what do you fail to see about that?

No, NFLD are being long term smart, their oil is going no where, and they refuse to allow the stealing of their oil through the forced and falsely low royalities because AB is to stupid to raise them to world levels.

[Remiel]

That is something I don't quite get... why exactly, do we *need* foreign investment in oil? Is there some reason Canadians don't want to invest in one of the most valuable commodities on Earth? Somehow, there isn't enough money in Canadian oil for us to actually own Canadian oil?

[Ricki Bobbi]

That is something I don't quite get... why exactly, do we *need* foreign investment in oil? Is there some reason Canadians don't want to invest in one of the most valuable commodities on Earth? Somehow, there isn't enough money in Canadian oil for us to actually own Canadian oil?

Oil is a pretty risky investment.

Six months ago you couldn't find anybody in the oil patch who would think the price of oil would ever fall before $50. Sure enough some markets are forecasting it to fall to $47 by summer.

That means for tough times in the Alberta oil patch.

There isn't enough capital in Canada that is willing to take the risks related to oil

[Saturn]

That is something I don't quite get... why exactly, do we *need* foreign investment in oil? Is there some reason Canadians don't want to invest in one of the most valuable commodities on Earth? Somehow, there isn't enough money in Canadian oil for us to actually own Canadian oil?

Well, yes, first we don't have that much use for that oil. Second, the American really want it because they want to depend less on the Middle East for oil and they are here to get it. Actually, it will be Canadians who will be slaving over getting the oil out of the ground and the Americans will be using it and making the huge profits off it.

[geoffrey]

No, NFLD are being long term smart, their oil is going no where, and they refuse to allow the stealing of their oil through the forced and falsely low royalities because AB is to stupid to raise them to world levels.

If they were long-term smart, they wouldn't be impoverished by now. I don't know about you, but Alberta has twice the fiscal capacity of any other province per capita. But they are doing it all wrong?

Why does the Alberta government need more money may I ask? We already have enough, running bigger surpluses than Ottawa. So why are you advocating that we raise taxes.

And just to clarify, it's not Canadian oil under the constitution, all minerals belong to the province.

That is something I don't quite get... why exactly, do we *need* foreign investment in oil? Is there some reason Canadians don't want to invest in one of the most valuable commodities on Earth? Somehow, there isn't enough money in Canadian oil for us to actually own Canadian oil?

There isn't enough investment capital in Canada to build the oil sands, that's the truth. The Canadian government has systematically (even more so with Harper's taxation of trusts) decided to setup major barriers to investment, hence why we have one of the lowest savings rates in the West.

[Remiel]

More from Wikipedia (And I really don't care about the " Hated Wikipedia " crap. It's an excellent resource in a pinch.)

The NEP was introduced in the wake of the energy crises of the 1970s, and was designed to promote oil self-sufficiency for Canada, maintain the oil supply, particularly for the industrial base in eastern Canada, promote Canadian ownership of the energy industry, promote lower prices, promote exploration for oil in Canada, promote alternative energy sources, and increase government revenues from oil sales through a variety of taxes and agreements

Looking back, while I won't fault Trudeau for the sentiment of the NEP, I can admit the implementation left much to be desired. Looking at the statement, in hindsight it seems to me that perhaps they should have stuck to laying the groundwork for oil-self sufficiency to be built on, were it required, promoting Canadian ownership and promoting exploration and alternative energy sources. It seems that if they hadn't insisted on going under the world price, they could of avoided a lot of the pain and aggravation, and still increased the benefits for all Canadians (not at the expense of Alberta).

Suddenly though, I think I am way off topic. I have to split, I'll return later to try and put this in some sort of context of this argument.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Looking at the statement, in hindsight it seems to me that perhaps they should have stuck to laying the groundwork for oil-self sufficiency to be built on, were it required, promoting Canadian ownership and promoting exploration and alternative energy sources. It seems that if they hadn't insisted on going under the world price, they could of avoided a lot of the pain and aggravation, and still increased the benefits for all Canadians (not at the expense of Alberta).

Suddenly though, I think I am way off topic. I have to split, I'll return later to try and put this in some sort of context of this argument.

Canada is self-sufficient in oil.

You really should supply some context for your ramblings...

[geoffrey]

Canada is self-sufficient in oil.

Indeed we could be. But it's far more efficient for Canadians, Americans and Europeans for us to export from the West and import in the East.

[cybercoma]

Wow, what a terrible idea. If I wanted Ottawa to spend more money, I'd have voted for the NDP. :angry:

[blueblood]

Canada is self-sufficient in oil.

Indeed we could be. But it's far more efficient for Canadians, Americans and Europeans for us to export from the West and import in the East.

I'd say spend the surplus on a big ass rig to put in newfoundland, then turn that rig into a co-op. That would help out the east a lot. If the gov't won't help out private guys get the oil out then they can do it themselves.

[geoffrey]

Wow, what a terrible idea. If I wanted Ottawa to spend more money, I'd have voted for the NDP. :angry:

I agree. I think many small-government people like you and I are thinking the same thing.

Indeed we could be. But it's far more efficient for Canadians, Americans and Europeans for us to export from the West and import in the East.

I'd say spend the surplus on a big ass rig to put in newfoundland, then turn that rig into a co-op. That would help out the east a lot. If the gov't won't help out private guys get the oil out then they can do it themselves.

Norway has the government very involved and it does ok, it's definitely a possibility. But personally I think a little competition always gets things going much better.

Newfoundland is being ridiculous in rejecting the deals. Beggars can't be chosers, or so the saying goes. And when you compare rates (expected royalties and taxes) in Newfoundland and Alberta or even Alberta and Saskatchewan, you see why the wealth exists where it does. So I'm unsure if the government doing it is a good idea.

[blueblood]

Norway has the government very involved and it does ok, it's definitely a possibility. But personally I think a little competition always gets things going much better.

Newfoundland is being ridiculous in rejecting the deals. Beggars can't be chosers, or so the saying goes. And when you compare rates (expected royalties and taxes) in Newfoundland and Alberta or even Alberta and Saskatchewan, you see why the wealth exists where it does. So I'm unsure if the government doing it is a good idea.

i'd say its better than letting the oil sit in the ground and those guys out their rotting on welfare. from a fiscal side the gov't could make a pile of money at this. Who knows the gov't might be able to drop taxes and be closer to self sufficiency.

[Ricki Bobbi]

i'd say its better than letting the oil sit in the ground and those guys out their rotting on welfare. from a fiscal side the gov't could make a pile of money at this. Who knows the gov't might be able to drop taxes and be closer to self sufficiency.

If managed right Alberta could save enough in the Heritage Trust Fund to permanently free Albertans from provincial income tax.

[Remiel]

Yes, I freely admit to frequent rambling. However, pay attention to what geoffrey is saying about where the East's oil is coming from. When I speak of laying the groundwork for Canada to be self-sufficient, I meant functionally, not productively. I know there is no pipeline from West to East, but have they at least made a solid plan of where one would be if it became necessary?

[stignasty]

Yes, I freely admit to frequent rambling. However, pay attention to what geoffrey is saying about where the East's oil is coming from. When I speak of laying the groundwork for Canada to be self-sufficient, I meant functionally, not productively. I know there is no pipeline from West to East, but have they at least made a solid plan of where one would be if it became necessary?

No, pipelines are the destroyers of governments.

[Ricki Bobbi]

When I speak of laying the groundwork for Canada to be self-sufficient, I meant functionally, not productively.

Functionally?

The costs of trucking oil, from the west as far as Ottawa and shipping/trucking from Hibernia for the eastern part of the country does make us functionally self-sufficent. Trucking such distances would still be cheaper than building a pipeline.

Yes, not all the oil consumed in Canada is produced in Canada. But that is for cost savings. In a time of war, the only real situation in which functional self-sufficiency comes into play, Canada could meet all of our oil needs.

[geoffrey]

Yes, I freely admit to frequent rambling. However, pay attention to what geoffrey is saying about where the East's oil is coming from. When I speak of laying the groundwork for Canada to be self-sufficient, I meant functionally, not productively. I know there is no pipeline from West to East, but have they at least made a solid plan of where one would be if it became necessary?

There is a natural gas pipeline from the West to the East:

http://www.transcanada.com/gas_transmission/mainline.html

That's the important one really. It's very expensive and risky to transport natural gas over land. It's possible to transport oil via railway. There is a considerable amount of Canadian owned oil pipeline connecting the West to Chicago and then into the Eastern Canadian markets.

For your viewing pleasure, here is a nice map of current liquids pipelines:

http://library.enbridge.com/images/maps/li...pelines-500.jpg