Jean Lapierre Resigns

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/liberal_lapierre

The cushion of two last only so long as the NDP complies.

There has been screaming from party members to stop propping up the Tories. There seems to be a growing feeling that it hurts the party with it core voters and doesn't give them any net benefits.

[Ricki Bobbi]

It is an attempt to lure those voters that Layton asked to "lend him" their votes in the last election.

It is pretty shrewd as they are trying to present themselves as a serious option to the Liberals as *the* party of the left in Canada.

Seems like those *screaming* party members are a mirror image of the Reform/Canadian Alliance who abandonded ship after the formation of the CPC. They are left clinging to their *principles* while Layton potentially postions the party for power ... Heaven forbid.

Lapierre's resignation opens up the uber-safe riding of Outremont.

The nomination will be fun to watch. Martin Cochon and Liza Frulla both want back into Parliament.

Will Justin Trudeau be able to out organize both of them?

[M.Dancer]

If I ever "Lent" my vote to that weasel, I would want compound interest till I get the vote back.

[Catchme]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/liberal_lapierre

The cushion of two last only so long as the NDP complies.

There has been screaming from party members to stop propping up the Tories. There seems to be a growing feeling that it hurts the party with it core voters and doesn't give them any net benefits.

Please provide proof of party members screaming to stop propping up Harper, as I think not!

New Democrats are speaking out for ordinary people all across this country.

And do you know which Party defeated the most Conservatives in 2006? It wasn’t the Liberals or the Bloc - they actually gave up seats to Stephen Harper in the last election. In fact, the Liberals are still giving seats to the Conservatives today!

No, it was the NDP who in the last election doubled its caucus in part by defeating 4 Conservatives in BC alone.

There’s no doubt about it - New Democrats are the number one Conservative fighters in Canada. We have the seats to prove it. And we have the votes on the record to prove it too.

We are the only party that has voted unanimously against the Conservatives on every confidence motion that has come before the House: whether it was the budget, extending the Liberal-Conservative mission in Afghanistan, or ratifying the soft-wood sell out.

Standing up to Stephen Harper? We’ve only just begun!

http://www.ndp.ca/page/4758

[jdobbin]

Please provide proof of party members screaming to stop propping up Harper, as I think not!

Robin Sears on Politics Today said that there are many NDP who feel they will get burned if they help the Tories on the Clean Air Act.

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/

On several other forums familiar to participants here, the discussion has gone along the lines of how the NDP did not benefit from years of propping up the Liberals federally in the 1960s and Liberals provincially in the 1980s.

[madmax]

Robin Sears on Politics Today said that there are many NDP who feel they will get burned if they help the Tories on the Clean Air Act.

.....the discussion has gone along the lines of how the NDP did not benefit from years of propping up the Liberals federally in the 1960s and Liberals provincially in the 1980s.

Yes, it is called a minority government. Members get edgy when supporting the Liberals, or the Conservatives? IIRC Conservative members were edgy about propping up the Liberals in early 2004. Working within Government is what minority parliments are all about. If the NDP cleans up the Environment policy of the Conservatives to a level that the conservatives will accept and wouldn't have been able to achieve on their own accord because of ideological differences within the party, then so much the better. IT's done, and the NDP may or may not get blown off the map, like other years. 2006 is the first time the NDP actually gained seats after a minority parliment, and 2004 was an increase in seats from previous. So if they drop, it is market correction, and if they rise, then, people like the Conservative Brand with the NDP, actually doing something productive. Which is far more than can be said environmentally for the Liberals when they had no one to monitor their actions because of majority rule.

[jdobbin]

Yes, it is called a minority government. Members get edgy when supporting the Liberals, or the Conservatives? IIRC Conservative members were edgy about propping up the Liberals in early 2004. Working within Government is what minority parliments are all about. If the NDP cleans up the Environment policy of the Conservatives to a level that the conservatives will accept and wouldn't have been able to achieve on their own accord because of ideological differences within the party, then so much the better. IT's done, and the NDP may or may not get blown off the map, like other years. 2006 is the first time the NDP actually gained seats after a minority parliment, and 2004 was an increase in seats from previous. So if they drop, it is market correction, and if they rise, then, people like the Conservative Brand with the NDP, actually doing something productive. Which is far more than can be said environmentally for the Liberals when they had no one to monitor their actions because of majority rule.

It is the NDP who have suffered the most from propping up minority governments. As Robin Sears said this week on CBC's Politics, it is the rank and file who are putting pressure on Layton to bring down the government rather than making them look good with the social policies.

Layton late this afternoon has put Harper on notice that he wants fast changes on climate. I think he is hoping to set up the terms for which the Tories would reject the new environmental act and the NDP would fight the election on that.

It doesn't serve them to spend a year helping the Tories craft as policy weaker than the ones the Tories first introduced.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070111/...onal/layton_ndp

[Ricki Bobbi]

It is the NDP who have suffered the most from propping up minority governments. As Robin Sears said this week on CBC's Politics, it is the rank and file who are putting pressure on Layton to bring down the government rather than making them look with the social policies.

The rub is the NDP have suffered for supporting Liberal minority governments. They did nothing to support Diefenbaker in 62-63 and Clark in 79-80. When they did support Liberal governments they forced them to govern from the Left. This moved swing Liberal-NDP voters to the Liberals.

There aren't many swing Conservative-NDP voters.

I'm shocked Robin Sears doesn't buy Layton's plan on this one...

[jonnygrit]

Lapierre is a garbage MP anyway. He only came back because of Martin, and now that Martin's gone, he's taking his ball and going home.

At this point in the Liberal Party, we need true Liberals anyway.

[Ricki Bobbi]

At this point in the Liberal Party, we need true Liberals anyway.

Ahh there's the rub. What is a "true Liberal" these days?

Jonnygrit do you have a coupe Longueuil?

[jdobbin]

Lapierre is a garbage MP anyway. He only came back because of Martin, and now that Martin's gone, he's taking his ball and going home.

At this point in the Liberal Party, we need true Liberals anyway.

It certainly gives Dion an opportunity to find someone who raises the profile the party in that constituency.

[Ricki Bobbi]

It certainly gives Dion an opportunity to find someone who raises the profile the party in that constituency.

I don't think the Liberals need to raise their profile in that riding. The Liberals have won there in every election but one (1988) since World War II. That's as safe a seat as anywhere in the country....

[August1991]

The cushion of two last only so long as the NDP complies.

Keep in mind what's being discussed. Now, with the safety of a vote or two, the Tories can stay in power with the support alone of either the BQ, the Liberals or NDP.

The Tories are throwing a three-sided die. Neither the BQ nor the NDP want an election anytime soon, and neither really do the Liberals. Draw your own conclusion.

In a sense, the current Parliament is a bit like the next federal election: one guy against three. In a bar, that's not a good position but in an election, such a fight is to the one guy's advantage. (Any polisci students on the forum? Discuss.)

Lapierre is a garbage MP anyway. He only came back because of Martin, and now that Martin's gone, he's taking his ball and going home.

At this point in the Liberal Party, we need true Liberals anyway.

Lapierre is not a "garbage" MP. He's a gossipmonging political junkie - who likes power but loves talking about it in public even more. I think he's better in radio than TV but we'll see.

Anyway, Lapierre's demission is the first of several to come. Watch next for Denis Coderre and then others.

Dion has to clean house somehow and if he's lucky, people will leave on their own. Call it the trash taking itself out.

BTW, this was predicted in a different thread already.

[jdobbin]

Keep in mind what's being discussed. Now, with the safety of a vote or two, the Tories can stay in power with the support alone of either the BQ, the Liberals or NDP.

Neither the BQ nor the NDP want an election anytime soon, and neither really do the Liberals. The Tories are throwing a three-sided die. Draw your own conclusion.

In a sense, the current Parliament is a bit like the next federal election: one guy against three. In a bar, that's not a good position but in an election, such a fight is to the one guy's advantage. (Any polisci students on the forum? Discuss.)

Robin Sears was saying today that Layton is under pressure at the caucus retreat this weekend to get Harper to embrace Kyoto completely and fully and immediately. Some want Harper's people to find it so objectionable that they reject it and this is what they would campaign on in an election.

[fellowtraveller]

Jack Layton is getting inceasingly desperate to get his face on TV. The good old days, propping up a corrupt Martin government and appearing to be relevant, are a distant memory for the electorate.

I don't think there is anything Layton can do to prevent his caucus being halved in an election now or later in the year. His biggest problem is that he is now indistinguishable from the Liberals.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Robin Sears was saying today that Layton is under pressure at the caucus retreat this weekend to get Harper to embrace Kyoto completely and fully and immediately. Some want Harper's people to find it so objectionable that they reject it and this is what they would campaign on in an election.

That would be bargaining in bad faith and would likely backfire.

Something does need to be done on the environment.

We are so far behind our Kyoto tagets that we can't reasonably meet them.

The Conservatives will come up with a reasonable plan that makes sense in 2007. If Layton really wants to go into an election on Kyoto or nothing that is a recipe for disaster...

[Joe Blow]

The journalist panel on Politics was venturing today that Dion will hold Outremont for a handpicked candidate, most likely a woman (a large pet project of his). Cauchon certainly can't be his favorite Grit right now either after clearly choosing Iggy over Dion on the last ballot; looking towards his own leadership aspirations in the next round. The Tories are rumoured to be courting the former head of Hydro Quebec (name escapes me right now) to run, most likely in Outremont when the by-election is called. It is a long shot for the Tories, but if the by-elections happen after the NDP-Tories hash out an environmental plan, the Tories might have a shot; providing the plan is good and solid.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The journalist panel on Politics was venturing today that Dion will hold Outremont for a handpicked candidate, most likely a woman (a large pet project of his).

It is a long shot for the Tories, but if the by-elections happen after the NDP-Tories hash out an environmental plan, the Tories might have a shot; providing the plan is good and solid.

If it's a woman look for it to be Brigitte Legault or Liza Frulla.

I am not holding my breathe for a Conservative victory. *If* the plan is solid enough for the Conservatives to win Outremont look for them to call a general election ASAP afterwards. My gawd would the Liberals shit their pants if they lost that riding.

[August1991]

The Tories are rumoured to be courting the former head of Hydro Quebec (name escapes me right now) to run, most likely in Outremont when the by-election is called. It is a long shot for the Tories...

André Caillé, ex-CEO of Hydro-Québec, has been invited by Harper to be a candidate. The Tories won Outremont in 1988.

I would be very, very surprised if the Tories won it, regardless of the candidate.

[geoffrey]

I would be very, very surprised if the Tories won it, regardless of the candidate.

Is Trudeau an asset or a liability in Outremont? Will he run?

EDIT: By the way, isn't Fortier REALLY REALLY obliged to run now? This is riding two in Montreal... parliamentary tradition calls for it, and called for it last time.

[madmax]

The rub is the NDP have suffered for supporting Liberal minority governments. They did nothing to support Diefenbaker in 62-63

Oh..This from Larry Zolf in 2004.

When Diefenbaker fell from 205 seats in 1958 to 116 in 1962 he leaned on the 31 Social Credit and 18 NDP seats. In both cases there was no unbridgeable gap between Diefenbaker and the smaller parties. Diefenbaker was no Stephen Harper. Diefenbaker was not a fire-eating social conservative as Harper is.

[madmax]

There aren't many swing Conservative-NDP voters.

I wouldn't say there aren't any but it is not like it used to be, however, there were more in the past two elections then in the previous 15 years. I'll give you my opinion in Ontario.

In the Days of the Big Blue Machine in Ontario, and Ontarios Strong Manufacturing base, workers switched between Conservative and NDP. This transcended into federal politics as well, but not as great. However, free trade eliminated alot of the manufacturing jobs, and Lunch Bucket Joe, left both the NDP and Conservatives for Reform or Liberals federally. Thus the Liberals gaining a huge dominance, and both the Progressive Conservative vote and NDP vote collapsing.

This maintained until the merger of the Canadian Reform ALLIANCE Party (CRAP) successfully became the CONSERVATIVE party of Canada. This Merger somehow had a positive effect on the growth of the NDP.

The bump the NDP got occurred in 2004 with Liberals not concerned about anything than power, and Progressives Conservatives whom couldn't identify with the new party, some came to the NDP, but they weren't lunch bucket joes, but Teachers, Lawyers, Economists.

The Conservatives Real Bump came in 2006 when they were able to overcome the "Scary" profiling giving to them by the Liberals and the downgrading of their Social Conservative agenda. It also allowed Longtime Business Liberals to move comfortably across party lines.

So you are correct, there aren't nearly as many Conservative NDP vote switchers as there has been in the past. But why when the Conservatives are Stronger then when they were split in two parties, the NDP would grow, at a time the Liberals need every vote to counter the NEW party, leaves plenty for discussion.

[normanchateau]

Oh..This from Larry Zolf in 2004.

When Diefenbaker fell from 205 seats in 1958 to 116 in 1962 he leaned on the 31 Social Credit and 18 NDP seats. In both cases there was no unbridgeable gap between Diefenbaker and the smaller parties. Diefenbaker was no Stephen Harper. Diefenbaker was not a fire-eating social conservative as Harper is.

Harper a social conservative? Surely not.

[Canadian Blue]

Harper's been described as a Libertarian or a Classical Liberal. He isn't a social conservative, and has very little in common with the social conservatives down in the US. While a member of the Reform party Harper was pro-choice, and lobbied against the party becoming too socially conservative. It's free for anyone to look up.

[normanchateau]

Harper's been described as a Libertarian or a Classical Liberal. He isn't a social conservative, and has very little in common with the social conservatives down in the US. While a member of the Reform party Harper was pro-choice, and lobbied against the party becoming too socially conservative. It's free for anyone to look up.

So voting against making it a hate crime to advocate the killing of homosexuals is not a socially conservative position?

So wanting permanent criminal records and jail sentences for possession of a few grams of marijuana is not a socially conservative position? Harper's position on this issue is unequivocally socially conservative if not irrational.