What is Freemasonry ?

[jefferiah]

Most of what is written about Masonic lodges is speculation and myth, today it is a well respected organization which for the most part is a social encounter with charitable work. Although not members, we know close friends who are and enjoy their dances and odd other social event, all the people I have met are for the most part Christian, but more recently other religions. None are remotely satanic or anything close.

these are just 3 thing you must be or believe in

you must be a man

you must believe in god and the afterlife

you must be 18

http://grandlodge.on.ca/150thAnniversary/D...ictProjects.htm

http://www.hoffmanlodge412.org/charities.htm this is an American lodge, there are many others involved in charitable work. As you know some Masons move up to be Shriners who are well known for their charity work, especially with burn victims.

I have no doubt that most masons are not bad people, or are not Satanic or pagan. But nonetheless the writings I have posted from are not from outsiders speculating about Masonry, they are Masonic writings. I should also mention that they are not from former Masons seeking to expose masonry as a bad thing. If you dont believe me research it yourself.

[jefferiah]

As for M. Dancer's assertion that the site where I found online Masonic texts may not be a masonic site, I challenge him to view the site for himself and see if he thinks it is not legitimate. www.freemason-freemasonry.com. If you dont believe in the myths about Templars and connections to the occult and think that is all hokum, apparently the "great literati" of the upper echelons do though since they even trace themselves to the Templars and to mystery cults of earlier civilizations. If this is hokum then it can at least be said that at the core there is a belief in this Hokum. If it is speculation, it is a speculation that they themselves endorse in their own writings. Look and see for yourself. It is there as plain as day. They themselves suggest it is a pity so few masons read to find the meaning of masonry.

[jefferiah]

sorry thats www.freemasons-freemasonry.com

[M.Dancer]

As for M. Dancer's assertion that the site where I found online Masonic texts may not be a masonic site, I challenge him to view the site for himself and see if he thinks it is not legitimate.

Copyright © 1996 - 2007 © - PIETRE-STONES REVIEW OF FREEMASONRY - All rights reserved

Now I won't categorically say there are no legitimate Masonic sites...just that up untill at least 5 years ago, there were no official freemason sites.

[M.Dancer]

A big clue would be the suffix..a real mason site would end in .org

like this one

http://www.shrinershq.org/

[Catchme]

But then why is Pike's book a respected text in Masonry. Why is it posted on Freemasonry websites? Also there are the works of Manly Palmer Hall. The Encyclopedia of Freemasonry. Their own writings say these things that I have quoted. I have never read the Da Vinci Code and I dont believe in the idea it is based on. Nonetheless, all this literature is Masonic literature. Not literature from a conspiracy theory website.

Have you read the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry?

Plus, don't trust crap the BC Freemasons link to, they are hardly credible IMV.

Funny how people don't read things to get a full view yet they think they have right to opinion, from their own personal narrow perspective of dogma.

[jefferiah]

Once again I reiterate. Do your own research? I never said freemasons were all bad people, and I never said people couldn't become one. All I said was, if you look at my initial post, that I feel it is bad and I would not want to be involved with it. If you dont agree thats fine. If someone here sees what I have written and comes to the same conclusions I have for the same reasons or whatever reasons, then my post was not wasted.

[jefferiah]

Does one have to read all books on Scientology from cover to cover to decide they are wierd?

[M.Dancer]

Once again I reiterate. Do your own research? I never said freemasons were all bad people, and I never said people couldn't become one. All I said was, if you look at my initial post, that I feel it is bad and I would not want to be involved with it. If you dont agree thats fine. If someone here sees what I have written and comes to the same conclusions I have for the same reasons or whatever reasons, then my post was not wasted.

Yeah and if you would look at my initial post you woulsee I suggest you stop reading tin foil hat accounts of the masons.....

[jefferiah]

My website was not a conspiracy theory site M. Dancer. You fail to acknowledge that. It did not even describe the literature therein as bad. If you give that website an honest assessment you have to admit its not a conspiracy site. It describes itself as a Freemasonry Magazine for Freemasons. Are you suggesting that there is some conspiracy to make mock Freemasonry sites in order to slander the organization? That is a conspiracy theory (I never even formulated a conspiracy theory), and I think the tin foil hat would thus fit better on your head.

[Catchme]

Does one have to read all books on Scientology from cover to cover to decide they are wierd?

So, you have not read the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry then. But you are an expert on it, though you self admittedly know nothing?

This seems to be a habit of yours, feeling free to diss something, classify yourself as knowing something, while knowing nothing about it, and then saying you will not educate yourself about it even, because you "know" everything. It seems your "knowing" everything is surface quotes, that support your pre-conceived bias.

[M.Dancer]

My website was not a conspiracy theory site M. Dancer. You fail to acknowledge that.

You claimed (or at least inferred) it was an official mason site.....christ almighty, should intersted acolytes to christianity go and learn more a athiest.com?

[jefferiah]

I dont think saying that I feel that at its core it is heretical and that I would personally would not want any involvement with it can be classified as dissing it. If the ideas of a certain religion dont suit you are you dissing it.

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

This is from another text. Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike. As for the encyclopedia of freemasonry By Albert G Mackey I believe it reads like an encyclopedia, with seperate topics. The point about that book is I believe (and it has been a few days since I read this) that was the one where I found a definition of masonry as a "religion". How much more do you have to read?

The quote above. It doesnt need any special context for me. For me that is enough to say it is heretical to my faith. Read my initial post. I never accused free-masonry of any conspiracy. I never said they were a pagan cult. I said based on what I have read, I feel that they are. If you have a problem with my ideas, you are free not to subscribe to them. Once again for anyone interested in reading some of the texts I mentioned the website is www.freemasons-freemasonry.com. It is not a website that seeks to defame masonry. It touts itself as a Magazine for Freemasons by Freemasons, and says they are recognized by The United Grand Lodge of England. On this site there are links to freemasonic literature. And this is where I found my quotes. If M. Dancer doesnt like what I am saying that is fine. Perhaps someone will also find that there are questionable things about freemasonry and this would prevent them from joining. That is not dissing. I did not slander them for any crime. I didnt even accuse Pike of Satanism. I just posted the quoted. The first mention of Satanism was from M. Dancer I believe. His words, not mine.

[jefferiah]

My website was not a conspiracy theory site M. Dancer. You fail to acknowledge that.

You claimed (or at least inferred) it was an official mason site.....christ almighty, should intersted acolytes to christianity go and learn more a athiest.com?

Thats a ridiculous comparison M Dancer and you know it. My site was a pro masonry site. Not anti-masonry. I am not directing people to a site which opposes masonry. Atheist.com would be directing someone to something in direct opposition to Christianity. A five year old could see the holes in that analogy. The site touts itself as a Magazine for Freemasons by Freemasons. Its not anti-masonic. So cut the crap. Now answer this question, do you think this site is a poser. Is it part of some elaborate conspiracy to make a Site which poses as a masonic website, only to lead people to questionable ideas about them? Do you think that?

[Catchme]

I dont think saying that I feel that at its core it is heretical and that I would personally would not want any involvement with it can be classified as dissing it.

As for the encyclopedia of freemasonry By Albert G Mackey I believe it reads like an encyclopedia, with seperate topics. The point about that book is I believe (and it has been a few days since I read this) that was the one where I found a definition of masonry as a "religion". How much more do you have to read?

If you use 1 specific quote, taken out of context and follow it by negative dialogue, and labeling it heretical means yes you are slanting and dissing. Having said that, I also have been known to diss Freemasonry but for very different reasons, and at least my dissing is selective to an aspect or 2, not broad based and it was well researched.

And yes, it does read something like and encyclopedia, but it actually gives a truthful account of history, unlike other encyclopedias. But it is a little hard to come by in the public domain.

Perhaps Freemasonry, as an esoteric knowledge and philosophy, is not compatible with exoteric beliefs?

By the way you should really look up things, like the definition of religion!

Main Entry: re·li·gion

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic : scrupulous conformity :

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

My, it must nice to know one is perfect in knowledge, without actually having any.

[jefferiah]

"And yes, it does read something like and encyclopedia, but it actually gives a truthful account of history, unlike other encyclopedias. But it is a little hard to come by in the public domain."

Thats an interesting quote. It gives a truthful account of history, unlike other encyclopedias. Hmmmmmmmm...........

[jefferiah]

Actually I have read quite a lot of Morals and Dogma. And how far beyond and prior to a quote must one reasonably read in order to obtain the "context". I think it would be ridiculous to assert that I should quote the whole text of Morals and Dogma on here. I have quotes that say that the charge that low level masons are led to believe they know the meanings of masonry are not false. How far back do I have to quote to make the context different. YOu can use the context argument all you want. In this case, its bullshit. I have read around the said quotes, the chapters which they appear in. Are you suggesting to me that if I look back far enough I will find in the preface of the book these words "I am writing this book on Opposite Day. Therefore everything I say is really the opposite of what I am thinking."

[Catchme]

"And yes, it does read something like and encyclopedia, but it actually gives a truthful account of history, unlike other encyclopedias. But it is a little hard to come by in the public domain."

Thats an interesting quote. It gives a truthful account of history, unlike other encyclopedias. Hmmmmmmmm...........

Take it however you will, it is a reality that the pap most read that is "token" history in our educational systems and in encyclopedias is pretty much full of half truths and no truths.

Which actually, I used to have a problem with, and argued with Freemasons most strongly about, I could not understand why full, or even truthful, accounting was/is never given.

Then of course estoteric truths as opposed to exoteric beliefs, became part of my knowledge base, and I care no longer.

[jefferiah]

Ah I see. Perhaps there are half-truths out there. However you would place the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry at a higher level than other encyclopedias?

[Catchme]

Ah I see. Perhaps there are half-truths out there. However you would place the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry at a higher level than other encyclopedias?

Depends on who is making the levels I suppose, historically wise, yes. It does not go into health, literature, arts and science, except who was involved in those things from the masonic spheres. And in fact most historically were on assorted levels. It is a fascinating book, but then most are.

[scribblet]

There's lots more but you all need to quit believing the conspiracy theories and understand that today, it is simply a brotherhood, a male society which gets together socially and does charitable work. Most of the origins are strictly theory and speculation.

Masonry was actually a guild, or a union of masons and a member had freedom to practice throughout the countryside. This would be in keeping with similar practices of others guild artisans e.g. free fishermen, free linen weavers, free gardeners, etc. and were common terms in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

http://grandlodge.on.ca/150thAnniversary/GL_History.htm

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/index.html

The history of anti-masonry is almost as old as that of Freemasonry itself. Anti-masonic thought can be grouped into two broad categories: accusations of anti-Christian or satanic objectives, and accusations of political and social manipulation. Anti-masonic thought today generally turns to the many conspiracy theories currently popular in the media. Historically, Freemasonry has ignored such attacks. The following articles contain the facts.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/freemaso...eemasonry7.html

Madison Heights -- In best-selling books and Hollywood movies, the Freemasons are depicted as a religious sect tied to knights protecting the Holy Grail, or a secret society hiding a national treasure since the days of the American Revolution.

Wrong on both accounts, says Don Novak, senior warden of the Northwood-Ancient Craft Lodge No. 551 in Madison Heights.

Novak, a Royal Oak resident, and other Freemasons are in the midst of their own publicity blitz to educate the community about the oldest and largest fraternity in the world.

This week members of the local lodge, 850 Horace Brown Drive, invited Madison Heights firefighters over for a barbecue to thank them for their public service and on Saturday will host an open house for curious residents of south Oakland County.

"This is all part of a statewide campaign by the Grand Lodge of Michigan to dispel the rumors and innuendo in movies like "The DaVinci Code" and "National Treasure," Novak said. "Come on over. We'll pull back the curtains. We'll show you the closets and we'll tell you what Freemasonry is all about."

Robert Stevens, grand secretary of the Grand Lodge of Michigan in Alma, is at a loss to explain all the misconceptions about the organization dating back to 1771 and boasting a U.S. membership roster with the likes of 14 U.S. presidents from George Washington to Gerald Ford, astronauts, scientists, business leaders and entertainers.

Maybe it's because members don't advertise their affiliation, seek credit for their charitable work or publicly challenge references about their initiation process and rituals.

[jefferiah]

There's lots more but you all need to quit believing the conspiracy theories and understand that today, it is simply a brotherhood, a male society which gets together socially and does charitable work. Most of the origins are strictly theory and speculation.

Masonry was actually a guild, or a union of masons and a member had freedom to practice throughout the countryside. This would be in keeping with similar practices of others guild artisans e.g. free fishermen, free linen weavers, free gardeners, etc. and were common terms in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

http://grandlodge.on.ca/150thAnniversary/GL_History.htm

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/index.html

The history of anti-masonry is almost as old as that of Freemasonry itself. Anti-masonic thought can be grouped into two broad categories: accusations of anti-Christian or satanic objectives, and accusations of political and social manipulation. Anti-masonic thought today generally turns to the many conspiracy theories currently popular in the media. Historically, Freemasonry has ignored such attacks. The following articles contain the facts.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/freemaso...eemasonry7.html

Madison Heights -- In best-selling books and Hollywood movies, the Freemasons are depicted as a religious sect tied to knights protecting the Holy Grail, or a secret society hiding a national treasure since the days of the American Revolution.

Wrong on both accounts, says Don Novak, senior warden of the Northwood-Ancient Craft Lodge No. 551 in Madison Heights.

Novak, a Royal Oak resident, and other Freemasons are in the midst of their own publicity blitz to educate the community about the oldest and largest fraternity in the world.

This week members of the local lodge, 850 Horace Brown Drive, invited Madison Heights firefighters over for a barbecue to thank them for their public service and on Saturday will host an open house for curious residents of south Oakland County.

"This is all part of a statewide campaign by the Grand Lodge of Michigan to dispel the rumors and innuendo in movies like "The DaVinci Code" and "National Treasure," Novak said. "Come on over. We'll pull back the curtains. We'll show you the closets and we'll tell you what Freemasonry is all about."

Robert Stevens, grand secretary of the Grand Lodge of Michigan in Alma, is at a loss to explain all the misconceptions about the organization dating back to 1771 and boasting a U.S. membership roster with the likes of 14 U.S. presidents from George Washington to Gerald Ford, astronauts, scientists, business leaders and entertainers.

Maybe it's because members don't advertise their affiliation, seek credit for their charitable work or publicly challenge references about their initiation process and rituals.

I dont believe in the Da Vinci Code Scriblett, nor National Treasure. I dont believe in a Holy Grail. Nor do I put much stock in conspiracy theory websites. Would you not say that the quotes I posted make masonry questionable for people of certain faiths? I did not get these quotes from a conspiracy theory site, nor from a website seeking to defame masons. You say that people need to get their heads out the conspiracy theory sites, yet you fail to acknowledge the fact that I have repeatedly shown that my sources were not a conspiracy theory website. The website was www.freemasons-freemasonry.com. If you look at the site you will see it claims to be a Magazine For Freemasons By Freemasons. It claims to be recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England. It is not anti-masonry. So if the site is not genuine that leaves one possibility. It is a mock masonic site. And if Albert Pike is not associated at all with masonic thought, then the wide range of Masonic websites (not conspiracy theory websites) that recognize him as a scholar on the topic of all must be mock masonic sites. I did not propose any conspiracy theory. I did not say the masons killed Kennedy or any such thing. I just posted quotes which I thought would create enough question in the mind's of people who are religious to determine that yeah maybe this is heretical and I would not want to be involved with them either. But let me ask you the same thing I asked M. Dancer. If all these sites are posers, are they part of some elaborate "conspiracy" to make phoney masonic documents and post them on phoney masonic websites in order to defame the order. Is that what you assert?

[Catchme]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[jefferiah]

And to bring up M. Dancer's analogy to referring someone to atheist.com for information on becoming a Christian. Well if I had been referring people to a site which sought to defame masonry or was opposed to it then the analogy would be reasonable. But once again I reiterate my website is a Magazine for Freemasons by Freemasons. So in this case the proper analogy for M. Dancer to have made would be "Would it be reasonable if I told someone who was interested in Christianity to check out www.somethingblahblah.com (non-existant), an online Christian Magazine for Christians by Christians?" In which case I would have said "yes. that sounds reasonable."

[dances with fishes]

As for the encyclopedia of freemasonry By Albert G Mackey I believe it reads like an encyclopedia, with seperate topics. The point about that book is I believe (and it has been a few days since I read this) that was the one where I found a definition of masonry as a "religion". How much more do you have to read?

If you use 1 specific quote, taken out of context and follow it by negative dialogue, and labeling it heretical means yes you are slanting and dissing. Having said that, I also have been known to diss Freemasonry but for very different reasons, and at least my dissing is selective to an aspect or 2, not broad based and it was well researched.

And yes, it does read something like and encyclopedia, but it actually gives a truthful account of history, unlike other encyclopedias. But it is a little hard to come by in the public domain.

Perhaps Freemasonry, as an esoteric knowledge and philosophy, is not compatible with exoteric beliefs?

By the way you should really look up things, like the definition of religion!

Main Entry: re·li·gion

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic : scrupulous conformity :

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

My, it must nice to know one is perfect in knowledge, without actually having any.

Websters 1965 dictionary

Religion;ri-lij-on [Fr religion,L.religio,religionis,perhaps from prefix re,and stem meaning to care for,to respect,allied to Gr.elego to heed] The feeling of reverence which men entertain toward a supreme being;God as an object of worship,love,and obedience;

Some here do not mind bending to the will of men or woman,yet reject the teachings of the Father.

Does any one see why there own children won't listen