Riverwind Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Lets see the documents proving the US supplied Iraq with chemical weapons. A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printerTo be fair, the evidence clearly indicates that the US was not alone in its efforts to arm Saddam. However, I don't think it is reasonable to argue that the US has completely clean hands. According Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from firms in such countries as: the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and China.[1] By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Lets see the documents proving the US supplied Iraq with chemical weapons. http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/506/27605\ From this article I looked for the LA Times artile. Found it archived here. http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00776.html In addition to clearing the way for new financial aid, senior Bush aides as late as the spring of 1990 overrode concern among other government officials and insisted that Hussein continue to be allowed to buy so-called "dual use" technology -- advanced equipment that could be used for both civilian and military purposes. The Iraqis were given continued access to such equipment, despite emerging evidence that they were working on nuclear arms and other weapons of mass destruction. Fringe claims indeed. OH and hypocracy. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americ...ticle328703.ece White Phosphourus used in Iraq BY the US military. a few points here.... 1) No sign of the US providing as claimed chemical weapons. 2) Phosphorous isn't a chemical weapon. It is an incendiary. As such it is covered by the use of such weapons. it is not banned although like any weapon, it has clear ROE. 3) logistical support is not a chemical weapon 4) intelligence support is not a chemical weapon 5) dual use trechnology ranging from farm equipment to manfacturing equipment are also not chemical weapons. No amount of winging, prevaricating or distorting can change the fact that the US did not provide chemical weapons. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guthrie Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 ...No amount of winging, prevaricating or distorting can change the fact that the US did not provide chemical weapons. The USA, under the Reagan admin, did certainly sell chem/bio weapons to Saddam. ...The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning. One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986. ... Link Link to Report Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 How many weapons exactly, are in a batch? And once again, dual use materials are not chemical weapons. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guthrie Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 How many weapons exactly, are in a batch?And once again, dual use materials are not chemical weapons. so, you wish to use semantics to weasel out of it - no surprise - but yes; "Dual use materials ARE chemical/biological weapon components." --- do you deny THAT statement? Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 How many weapons exactly, are in a batch? And once again, dual use materials are not chemical weapons. so, you wish to use semantics to weasel out of it - no surprise - No I wish to know how a petri slide can be loaded in a howitzer. I know how it can be used to create a vaccine.... Here's the original and still unsubstantiated claim Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds that the US gave them during then 80s. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guthrie Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 So, your defense is, it wasn't specifically the weapons he got from America, used to kill the Kurds? That is just so very pathetic. Was he a madman? Yes Was he likely to wantonly use the weapons componants Reagan sold him against innocent people? Yes ----- is there any proof that he would do such things? Yes, he gassed those Kurds PRIOR to those US/Rumsfeld sales. Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 but yes; "Dual use materials ARE chemical/biological weapon components." --- do you deny THAT statement? Yes because it's factuallu incorrect. Wood is a weapons component. It is also a furniture component. The correct and honest statement will read "Dual use materials can be also chemical/biological weapon components." But not without a lot of work and help from the french....... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 So, your defense is, it wasn't specifically the weapons he got from America, used to kill the Kurds?That is just so very pathetic. Was he a madman? Yes Was he likely to wantonly use the weapons componants Reagan sold him against innocent people? Yes ----- is there any proof that he would do such things? Yes, he gassed those Kurds PRIOR to those US/Rumsfeld sales. All of Saddam's weapons came either from Russia or Europe. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guthrie Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 but yes; "Dual use materials ARE chemical/biological weapon components." --- do you deny THAT statement? Yes because it's factuallu incorrect. Wood is a weapons component. It is also a furniture component. The correct and honest statement will read "Dual use materials can be also chemical/biological weapon components." But not without a lot of work and help from the french....... Not even close. The truth is, the rules of what could be sold to Saddam were changed under Reagan --- the administration knew what Saddam was doing with those weapons components - Reagan knew they were headed to a weapons arsenal and he sold them just the same. no pathetic apologies are going to convince anyone but those Martin Luther King referred to as, 'conscientiously stupid' Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Canadian Blue Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 I'm just wondering, all of the left wingers are talking about making the American's account for their "crimes", yet I haven't seen a single call for the French to account for what they did in Rwanada. From 1992 through 1993, there was apparently a lot of planning that was going on. Habyarimana, the Rwandan leader, was financing hutu militia groups with weapons provided by France. As a matter of fact, France at the time was even providing military assistance to the Hutu militias. [1]. On April 6, 1994, the airplane carrying President Habyarimana and Cyprien Ntaryamira, the President of Burundi, was shot down as it prepared to land at Kigali. Both presidents were killed when the plane crashed. As though the shooting down was a signal, military and militia groups began rounding up and killing all Tutsis they could capture as well as political moderates irrespective of their ethnic backgrounds. Large numbers of opposition politicians were also murdered. At this time, France proved their role in preparing the genocide as according to Rwandan Genocide Expert Linda Mervin "France had 37 officers embedded in the Rwandan genocidal Army." [2]. Furthermore, many nations evacuated all their nationals from Kigali and closed their embassies as violence escalated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Civil_War http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6196226.stm Before going on a rant about how this has nothing to do with Iraq, consider this. While your railing against the US, why don't you rail against every nation that has been complicit in genocide. Whether they be French, German, American, Dutch, Chinese, etc. Not even close. The truth is, the rules of what could be sold to Saddam were changed under Reagan --- the administration knew what Saddam was doing with those weapons components - Reagan knew they were headed to a weapons arsenal and he sold them just the same. The truth which backed up by your gut, or actual facts. According to what I've read America did sell some weapon's to Iraq, however so did France, Germany, the Dutch, and the Warsaw Pact. What about those countries, should we absolve them of any possible action's they took in order to bash the US. no pathetic apologies are going to convince anyone but those Martin Luther King referred to as, 'conscientiously stupid' Trust me, I'm sure you haven't once made an argument against the French and their role in Rwanda. However since anti-Americanism is fairly popular it's easy to judge the American's, yet absolve all others of what they have done. Were the American's complicit in Iraq, yes they were. However what about all of the other nation's which sold weapon's, do we really want to absolve them of what they have done simply so we can bash the American's instead of remembering what those countries did as well and recommending that the entire West change's the way it deal's with despotic and genocidal regimes. As for the argument the American's are the only ones who should be held accountable for what happened to Kurd's that is a load of bullshit, and does nothing but absolve others who may have been even more complicit in the crimes that were taking place in Iraq. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
Guthrie Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 It's time to take the French to account for what they did in Rwanada!!! feel better? btw - I never heard anything about making America pay for war crimes --- I want the Buschistas to stand for their war crimes but they aren't, 'America' - eh? Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Canadian Blue Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 Please what's with all of the shouting... As well it's not Rawanada, it's Rwanda. I'm saying that if you want to hold Bush up for war crimes, then you'll have to go after people in numerous countries as well. Buschista's, wow did you make that one up on your own. How do you actually think you can make a case against Bush in order to impeach him if you don't seem rational. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in call's to make the US accountable while ignoring what other countries have done, especially with regards to countries in the Western world. If you were to ever make a case for impeachment do you think they would listen to somebody who can't come up with a case, but just rant's and raves about how much they dislike the Buschistas. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
Guthrie Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 As well it's not Rawanada, it's Rwanda. and so?Buschista's, wow did you make that one up on your own. and so?How do you actually think you can make a case against Bush in order to impeach him if you don't seem rational. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in call's to make the US accountable while ignoring what other countries have done, especially with regards to countries in the Western world. could you maybe rephrase this? it doesn't seem to make any sense - the impeachment case against Bush is very clear and the facts of his high crimes and misdemeanors are not in question - the only question is, 'does the US Congress have the courage to do what's right?' Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 It's time to take the French to account for what they did in Rwanada!!!feel better? btw - I never heard anything about making America pay for war crimes --- I want the Buschistas to stand for their war crimes but they aren't, 'America' - eh? The "Buschistas" will stand trial for crimes against peace (not war crimes) right after The Hague finishes with Chretien, Clinton, Schroeder, Blair, and Chirac for NATO's Allied Force in 1999. Bombs away for "human rights". Don't hold your breath waiting. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guthrie Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 not even close - the Buschistas have committed real international crimes - they have used chemical weapons against civilian populations - retribution killing of innocents, torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners none of those charges can be levelled against most on your list Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Canadian Blue Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 QUOTEAs well it's not Rawanada, it's Rwanda. and so? Yeah, you seem to have little knowledge of the world around you. Which was the point since Rwanada doesn't exist, you basically combined Rwanda and Canada. QUOTEBuschista's, wow did you make that one up on your own. and so? I'm simply showing how your rhetoric doesn't really make any case for impeachment. You don't seem logical and rational to me. It's also odd since the US allied behind the Contras and not the Sandinista's. not even close - the Buschistas have committed real international crimes - they have used chemical weapons against civilian populations - retribution killing of innocents, torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners First of all, are the Bush's Latin American??? As well the Sandinista's have little in common with Bush. The Sandinista National Liberation Front (Spanish: Frente Sandinista de Liberación Nacional) is a Nicaraguan political party founded on the broad communist principles of the popular front. It led a revolution that in 1979 overthrew the Somoza political dynasty. Following their seizure of power, the Sandinistas ruled Nicaragua for roughly 12 years from 1979 to 1990, during which time they established democratic elections [1] and a national constitution, among other sweeping populist reforms. Their organization is generally referred to by the initials FSLN and its members are called, in both English and Spanish, Sandinistas. The Opposition to the Somoza government was inspired by what they termed the anti-imperialist struggle of Augusto C. Sandino during the thirties, decades prior to the Nicaraguan Revolution. Although Sandino's struggle was against the United States, he was never a Marxist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinistas#N...ons_with_the_US Secondly, when did the Bush's use chemical weapons against civilian population's, wasn't that Iraq. Iraq was also aided by many European and Asian countries, what about them. Can you actually make a case that says the United States committed genocide? none of those charges can be levelled against most on your list Those charges are backed up with what, nothing but heated rhetoric. The French are probably more guilty than the American's. But I trust that you will be able to respond with one or two sentences illustrating how little you actually know about the world. Other than the idea that the USA is behind all evil, and every single other country involved with Iraq and genocide are somehow innocent. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
Canadian Blue Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 not even close - the Buschistas have committed real international crimes - they have used chemical weapons against civilian populations - retribution killing of innocents, torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners I think in conclusion that you probably wouldn't know international crimes if it slapped you in the face. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
Guthrie Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 not even close - the Buschistas have committed real international crimes - they have used chemical weapons against civilian populations - retribution killing of innocents, torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners I think in conclusion that you probably wouldn't know international crimes if it slapped you in the face. your thinking is severely muddled Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Canadian Blue Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 your thinking is severely muddled Who called it... But I trust that you will be able to respond with one or two sentences illustrating how little you actually know about the world. Try responding with more than "your thinking is severely muddled", as I made valid point's. It's just that you can't seem to respond with any fact's as you rarely ever respond with fact's. But then again the shitty thing about fact's is that they often get in the way of the truth from your gut. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
GostHacked Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 Secondly, when did the Bush's use chemical weapons against civilian population's, wasn't that Iraq. Iraq was also aided by many European and Asian countries, what about them.Can you actually make a case that says the United States committed genocide? And what kind of case was brought against Saddam Hussein of Iraq? And how much of that 'case' is actually left. Most of it was debunked and considered fake and useless information. But Iraq was still invaded with faulity intelligence. Well maybe not faulty, but definately hand picked to prove a point. And now you will see more rhetoric on Iran than you did with Iraq. Hell, Bush already started LAST year with the push for Iran buy just mentioning them all the time in any speech. http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/13/Bus...o.ap/index.html If you don't like my plan, then tell me your plan. <------ This is your CIC people. Evan at this point, he will not listen to others. Just his appointed people and close allies in the government. And you know that 20,000 more troops just bring the troop level in Iraq up to the level they were a couple years ago. Which was lover than the initial invasion force. PATCH work indeed. Another failed attempt. Eat my words, if I am wrong and this sovled things. I WILL EAT MY WORDS. Really I will. I will print this post off, EAT IT, record it, and upload it for all to see. But if I am right, will you eat YOUR words??? Quote
Guthrie Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 your thinking is severely muddled Who called it... But I trust that you will be able to respond with one or two sentences illustrating how little you actually know about the world. Try responding with more than "your thinking is severely muddled", as I made valid point's. It's just that you can't seem to respond with any fact's as you rarely ever respond with fact's. But then again the shitty thing about fact's is that they often get in the way of the truth from your gut. I responded in like kind. If you have so little to offer but insults, insults are what you can expect in return. and no, it is infantile to accuse the "Coalition of the Cajoled" for actions taken by American forces - trying to spread the blame in such fashion is worse than muddled -- get real Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 not even close - the Buschistas have committed real international crimes - they have used chemical weapons against civilian populations - retribution killing of innocents, torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners none of those charges can be levelled against most on your list Not exactly a strident denial of "war crimes" by NATO (including Canadian sorties). Age before beauty...Chretien can go on trial before Clinton. Canada was buying nasty ordnance from the American depot at Aviano for their CF-18s using a credit card! Since the Iraq War was after 2002, please bring charges in the pretend ICC against Bush, Blair, and Howard. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guthrie Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 not even close - the Buschistas have committed real international crimes - they have used chemical weapons against civilian populations - retribution killing of innocents, torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners none of those charges can be levelled against most on your list Not exactly a strident denial of "war crimes" by NATO (including Canadian sorties). Age before beauty...Chretien can go on trial before Clinton. Canada was buying nasty ordnance from the American depot at Aviano for their CF-18s using a credit card! Since the Iraq War was after 2002, please bring charges in the pretend ICC against Bush, Blair, and Howard. an utter crock - if you have charges against Clinton, list them - otherwise you are just another right winger hurling feces from behind your rock --- Bush engaged in torture, use of chemical weapons, targetting civillians, denying POW's the rights promised in the Geneva rules of war -- he and Cheney and Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld were all participants in these acts and should be held to account moreover, that other clown is talking about blaming or charging a, 'country,' with war crimes --- a demonstration of ignorance in the matter entirely -- war crimes are committed by people, no one sent Germany to jail for torturing and murdering Poles and Jews --- you guys can't really make an argument till you get on the right page - these meaningless eruptions of bile do not address even a single real legitimate point Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 an utter crock - if you have charges against Clinton, list them - otherwise you are just another right winger hurling feces from behind your rock --- Bush engaged in torture, use of chemical weapons, targetting civillians, denying POW's the rights promised in the Geneva rules of war -- he and Cheney and Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld were all participants in these acts and should be held to account moreover, that other clown is talking about blaming or charging a, 'country,' with war crimes --- a demonstration of ignorance in the matter entirely -- war crimes are committed by people, no one sent Germany to jail for torturing and murdering Poles and Jews --- you guys can't really make an argument till you get on the right page - these meaningless eruptions of bile do not address even a single real legitimate point Twisting and squirming won't change the facts of Operation Allied Force (Kosovo). It won't bring back the innocent Grdelica train victims, or the Chinese nationals, or the other mumerous dead civilians from NATO's "illegal" action (never sanctioned by UNSC resolution). See, I can play the game just as well as you. But I do acknowledge your understanding of "war crimes" vs. "crimes against the peace". Bravo. WRT Kosovo, Canada's own ambassador offers a blistering condemnation: http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/bisset/bisset.htm http://www.peace.ca/blunderkosovo.htm Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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