An exercise in logic

[jbg]

A very clever post, two thumbs up...way up.

It's not clever at all.

If someone has a point to make, they should make it and not try to be cute.

I think my views on global warming, i.e. that it's a fraud, are known here. As it is, I see no problem with posters exercising with their sense of humor or their sense of humour.

[August1991]

I think my views on global warming, i.e. that it's a fraud, are known here.

You can call it a fraud if you want to but the last time I was in Manhattan, it cost me almost as much to park my car as it did for a hotel room. IOW, I had to pay for the use of space in Manhattan.

Unfortunately, the same is not true of the world's oceans and the world's atmosphere. As a result, the world's atmosphere and oceans are quickly turning into the streets of Rome (or more accurately Teheran or Lagos) where nobody pays for anything and it's a free-for-all. Imagine if all drivers in Manhattan worked for the UN. That's what the world's environment is becoming.

It's fine to have free parking if you live in Yaktowak, NWT but the world isn't like that anymore.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I think my views on global warming, i.e. that it's a fraud, are known here.

You can call it a fraud if you want to but the last time I was in Manhattan, it cost me almost as much to park my car as it did for a hotel room. IOW, I had to pay for the use of space in Manhattan.

Unfortunately, the same is not true of the world's oceans and the world's atmosphere. As a result, the world's atmosphere and oceans are quickly turning into the streets of Rome (or more accurately Teheran or Lagos) where nobody pays for anything and it's a free-for-all.

Tell that to the guy at the pump filling his vehicle with gasoline.

[August1991]

Tell that to the guy at the pump filling his vehicle with gasoline.

Most people at the pumps have children - indeed, that's why they often drive such big vehicles. They are sufficiently concerned about their children's safety to drive big vehicles, it seems odd that they would not be concerned what kind of world in 2070 their children (and grandchildren) will live in.

[jbg]

I think my views on global warming, i.e. that it's a fraud, are known here.

You can call it a fraud if you want to but the last time I was in Manhattan, it cost me almost as much to park my car as it did for a hotel room. IOW, I had to pay for the use of space in Manhattan.

Unfortunately, the same is not true of the world's oceans and the world's atmosphere. As a result, the world's atmosphere and oceans are quickly turning into the streets of Rome (or more accurately Teheran or Lagos) where nobody pays for anything and it's a free-for-all. Imagine if all drivers in Manhattan worked for the UN. That's what the world's environment is becoming.

It's fine to have free parking if you live in Yaktowak, NWT but the world isn't like that anymore.

My point is that if global warming is occurring (and that's a huge "if") it is probably cyclical. That means that ditzing around with Kyoto restrictions and credits will have no impact on the problem.

[mikedavid00]

what kind of world in 2070 their children (and grandchildren) will live in.

A world where we'll probably bowing to Mecca.

[Saturn]

Unfortunately for your theory, Saturn, the world's complex environmental system is not a bucket of water involving one variable - the amount of salt.

Yet this shows that many right-wingers don't have the brains to understand such a simple example. If they cannot understand that salt can accumulate in a bucket of water, it's no wonder that they cannot comprehend that GHGs can accumulate in the atmosphere.

The enviro-climate-change crowd certainly would like us all to believe it's just that simple.

Well, we don't want to overwhelm you with complexity. We realize that we have to start very, very simple for you to understand but I guess I overestimated your abilities.

Aren't these the same people who were ranting and raving about the "hole in the ozone layer"? From what I understand that hole (and the commensurate fanatacism) has been shrinking.

What you understand is incorrect (again) - the ozone layer has stopped thinning out since the ban on CFCs came into place but there isn't much of a recovery yet.

[Saturn]

Note that, although the ocean is acidifying, its pH is still greater than 7 (that of neutral water), so the ocean could also be described as becoming less alkaline.

from Saturn's link.

haha

Haha, you are too dumb to understand that the actual pH doesn't matter. What matters is that the pH is changing and that many sea creatures will not be able to handle that change. Haha, I'm sure that's too complex a thought for you to comprehend.

[Saturn]

Let me state that no one informed doubts the effects of CO2 on global warming and that human activities are increasing CO2 emissions. Where there is legitimate controversy is how serious the problem is and consequently how much human activity is a contributing factor.

No actually, there isn't a legitimate controversy. There is mumbling from the uninformed who simply want to ignore the problem, and therefore, just assume that there is no problem.

Saturn's example of salt in the ocean is misleading to plain wrong. Examples here of meteorologists inability to predict the weather next week are also misleading and wrong. I can predict that most people walking out of a casino have lost money but I can't predict if that's true about Joe Blow in the striped shirt.

The example is misleading, eh? What exactly is misleading in stating that if you dump more GHGs in the atmosphere than can be removed by sinks and other natural processes, then the level of GHGs will go up? Coincidentally, we've been digging up carbons out the earth and putting them into the atmosphere and since they cannot find their way back into the earth at the same rate, their level in the atmosphere is going up. Is that too complex for you to comprehend or do you believe in alchemy and that CO2 will turn into silver up there?

The relationship between CO2 and global warming is complex. Saturn offers one reason: the world's oceans. They harbour alot of CO2 and it's not clear how they do this. Here's another reason: various plants absorb CO2 and again it's not clear how this affects CO2 levels. Finally, it is water vapour that is the real green house gas but water vapour is dependent on the earth's temperature.

Well, that's very interesting but completely irrelevant.

Incidentally, the world's atmospehere is about 70% nitrogen, about 20% oxygen and a microscopic 0.04% carbon dioxide.

Also completely irrelevant. Were you trying to make a point here or did you just throw this in to make your post longer? Are you trying to imply that you can safely increase your salt intake to 30% of your daily food intake or something?

[Saturn]

Most people at the pumps have children - indeed, that's why they often drive such big vehicles. They are sufficiently concerned about their children's safety to drive big vehicles, it seems odd that they would not be concerned what kind of world in 2070 their children (and grandchildren) will live in.

It's simply human nature - ignoring problems until they really hit you on the head hard and not caring about how things turn out too far down the road (10 years is too far). People claim that they care about their children but they still wouldn't pay a buck more for education. They claim they care about health-care but when it comes to paying for it it turns out they don't care THAT MUCH.

[geoffrey]

Haha, you are too dumb to understand that the actual pH doesn't matter. What matters is that the pH is changing and that many sea creatures will not be able to handle that change. Haha, I'm sure that's too complex a thought for you to comprehend.

As it has many times before.

Remember, I'm not a climate change disputer, I accept the science, but seriously, let's stop pretending we can make that much of a difference.

All this species protection and concerns like that, pure rubbish. Stop trying to play God. Eventually these creatures are going to die due to changing climate, it's rather irrelevant when they do so as long as the rest of the world is coming along at the same pace.

The idea that we can control environmental outcomes is a real big arrogance of the western world. Climate models are so complex that they can never get two to agree. How do you think your going to be able to manipulate millions of variables just so to save your precious type of kelp.

[mikedavid00]

It's simply human nature - ignoring problems until they really hit you on the head hard and not caring about how things turn out too far down the road (10 years is too far).

immigration.

People claim that they care about their children but they still wouldn't pay a buck more for education. They claim they care about health-care but when it comes to paying for it it turns out they don't care THAT MUCH.

We can't afford to fix healthcare. If we try, we will lose are cars, homes, and jobs. How about we stop letting people use a system that have not paid into it. There is a job listing at the Trillium healthcenter here in the GTA. It's a non billingual position that pays over $20 and no degree is required. And only 6.5 hours a day work!

The position is for a 'Polish interprater'.

This is our problem with healtchare. It's already funded enough for Canadians.

[Saturn]

The idea that we can control environmental outcomes is a real big arrogance of the western world. Climate models are so complex that they can never get two to agree. How do you think your going to be able to manipulate millions of variables just so to save your precious type of kelp.

Precious type of kelp? You people just don't get it.

It's not about kelp. It's about screwing with the entire food chain and wiping out entire industries as a result. Newfoundland is a prime example of what happens when we don't control our destruction of the environment. Sorry, we fucked it up. Now we got thousands of people who can't do anything but fish and process the catch sitting unemployed.

The big arrogance of the western world is that we think that we can destroy our environment and get away with it. Unfortunately, that's real damn wrong as most of our lives and industries are based on the environment. But of course for most of us 10 years down the road is beyond our horizons and for many the horizon is next year's profit. We can keep living our wasteful lives happily in the meantime, joke about kelp, and pay for it later.

[geoffrey]

Precious type of kelp? You people just don't get it.

Actually I do get it. Kelp is at the bottom of the food chain and is critical to everything else. But it's going to die off sooner or later, maybe it's kelp's time.

It's not about kelp. It's about screwing with the entire food chain and wiping out entire industries as a result. Newfoundland is a prime example of what happens when we don't control our destruction of the environment. Sorry, we fucked it up. Now we got thousands of people who can't do anything but fish and process the catch sitting unemployed.

That has nothing to do with GHG or global warming or climate change. Newfoundland was just a big rush to harvest as many fish as possible. When you collect all of one item, it doesn't leave any of that item behind, whether fish or stamps. Expediating a natural process isn't quite following the same line of thought. Evolution will ensure stronger species prevail.

The big arrogance of the western world is that we think that we can destroy our environment and get away with it. Unfortunately, that's real damn wrong as most of our lives and industries are based on the environment. But of course for most of us 10 years down the road is beyond our horizons and for many the horizon is next year's profit. We can keep living our wasteful lives happily in the meantime, joke about kelp, and pay for it later.

We're not talking 10 years... we're talking .5 or .6 a degree over 20, maybe a metre increase in sea levels at worse... which sucks no doubt but it's not like we can't deal with it. A 50 year time frame to have all GHG in control for a nation that has little to do with the problem... that's a pretty solid bet without the economic destruction we'd get for actually trying to meet Kyoto deadlines.

At this point in the game, we'd have to shut down the entire oil sands project completely in order to cut half of the emissions we need. All the car plants in Toronto and preventing all Vancouverites from driving to work should just about be close enough. And it balances the destruction across the whole country, right?

Or maybe it's just not practical to do so. We can all live like much lower per capita emission India... but it's mighty cold with no heat in the winter and a long walk for most of us to our place of employment.

[Saturn]

That has nothing to do with GHG or global warming or climate change. Newfoundland was just a big rush to harvest as many fish as possible.

Overfishing was just part of the problem - despite the tight fishing quotas the fish ain't coming back.The other part is that the fish need food and a good environment to multiply. But that's gone and the fish aren't coming back.

We're not talking 10 years... we're talking .5 or .6 a degree over 20, maybe a metre increase in sea levels at worse... which sucks no doubt but it's not like we can't deal with it. A 50 year time frame to have all GHG in control for a nation that has little to do with the problem... that's a pretty solid bet without the economic destruction we'd get for actually trying to meet Kyoto deadlines.

At this point in the game, we'd have to shut down the entire oil sands project completely in order to cut half of the emissions we need. All the car plants in Toronto and preventing all Vancouverites from driving to work should just about be close enough. And it balances the destruction across the whole country, right?

Or maybe it's just not practical to do so. We can all live like much lower per capita emission India... but it's mighty cold with no heat in the winter and a long walk for most of us to our place of employment.

Scary, scary...polluting less means that we have to kill everyone above the age of 45. Keep living the way you are and you may not have a place of employment to walk to eventually. Because fishing less would have destroyed the NFLD economy back in the 70s and 80s.

[normanchateau]

The agenda driven left wing is a dictator minded hypocrite out to promote his agenda. That is who Saturn is. He's a card carying Libearl member with an agenda.

I'm intrigued by your characterization of the evil Saturn. You are simultaneously labelling him a left wing dictator and a card-carrying Liberal. If Liberals are left wing, how do you characterize those who belong to the NDP or BQ?

Is a multimillionaire industrialist and shipping magnate like Paul Martin who cut corporate and personal income taxes while cutting government services also "left wing"? And what about George Bush who increased both the US federal debt and deficit to the highest levels recorded in the history of the world? Are his economic policies, which are the opposite of Paul Martin's, "left wing" or "right wing"?

[BubberMiley]

Norm, you're asking questions that are much too difficult for Mike to understand, nevermind answer. Be reasonable.

[mikedavid00]

The agenda driven left wing is a dictator minded hypocrite out to promote his agenda. That is who Saturn is. He's a card carying Libearl member with an agenda.

I'm intrigued by your characterization of the evil Saturn. You are simultaneously labelling him a left wing dictator and a card-carrying Liberal. If Liberals are left wing, how do you characterize those who belong to the NDP or BQ?

Is a multimillionaire industrialist and shipping magnate like Paul Martin who cut corporate and personal income taxes while cutting government services also "left wing"? And what about George Bush who increased both the US federal debt and deficit to the highest levels recorded in the history of the world? Are his economic policies, which are the opposite of Paul Martin's, "left wing" or "right wing"?

I called saturn an Agenda Driven left winger in a 'voter' sense.

Martin is beyond that. He's an political 'elite' in Canada. So are the members of the NDP and BQ.

Big difference between a mere mortal with an agenda, and an political elite like Martin.

BTW, did Martin use our healthcare system?

And Bush cannot be blamed for his debt due to the falll of the economy when he took office and the Iraq war. If he was president around the time of Clinton he would have this great fiscal legacy I'm sure.

[mikedavid00]

Norm, you're asking questions that are much too difficult for Mike to understand, nevermind answer. Be reasonable.

Things are as complicated as you want to make them. I don't need to delve too deep into things to explain my points. ie: 2% of GHG from Canada means..

You know the rest.

[Saturn]

I called saturn an Agenda Driven left winger in a 'voter' sense.

And Bush cannot be blamed for his debt due to the falll of the economy when he took office and the Iraq war. If he was president around the time of Clinton he would have this great fiscal legacy I'm sure.

MD, let's clear things up - I couldn't call you left-wing or right-wing because you are NUT-wing. Now, go watch the Looney Tunes.

[BubberMiley]

And Bush cannot be blamed for his debt due to the falll of the economy when he took office and the Iraq war.

And everyone knows he had nothing to do with either of those things happening.

[Ricki Bobbi]

MD, let's clear things up - I couldn't call you left-wing or right-wing because you are NUT-wing. Now, go watch the Looney Tunes.

Bah!

Good on you Saturn.

Unfortunately far too many people claim that the looney fringe is representative of Conservative Party of Canada thinking. It is not...

[BubberMiley]

It's probably mainstream where you come from, but to the rest of the country, it's a little bit looney fringe.

[mikedavid00]

MD, let's clear things up - I couldn't call you left-wing or right-wing because you are NUT-wing. Now, go watch the Looney Tunes.

That's good for enough for a sig file if I do say so myself!

[mikedavid00]

And Bush cannot be blamed for his debt due to the falll of the economy when he took office and the Iraq war.

And everyone knows he had nothing to do with either of those things happening.

I agree.

He had little to do with either. The tech bubble burst when he took office. This was the largest job decline since the 1930's.

And I will be a wacko nut job by saying I believed the media and mainstream America 'pushed' bush into a war with Iraq. This was not in Bush's plans. I believe I can prove this but it would take massive research and cites on my part.

Those who followed the post 9-11 situation and are impartial to the facts and truth will most likely agree with me. Remember that a President a lot of the time is told what to do by his administration, advisors, and the media.

Bush didn't want to take it on with Iraq, the people of the United States wanted to take it on with Iraq. Polls show this. Again it would take lots of time to dig into these facts on my part.