Should we allow foreigners to buy Canada?

[August1991]

Geoffrey --> How do you propose keeping money in Canada under your system? If you are going to reduce taxes on corporations, you have to have some mechanism to ensure that wealthy folks cannot move all of their new-found wealth into tax havens outside the country, leaving the middle-class and the poor to pick up the tab. And as for unlimited foreign ownership, how exactly do you propose we retain economic sovereignty by surrendering everything to outside interests? As has already been stated, those people do not have anything invested in this country except money. We need investors to have a vested interest in the welfare of this country at large, or else they will abandon us at the first sign of ill weather and we'll be screwed.

Great question Remiel. Withholding taxes are actually quite easy to apply and easy to regulate. Banks tend to follow the law so when they transfer money outside of the country, it's easy to know when it happens. Slapping a withholding tax equal to the flat rate income tax I proposed inside Canada would make it needless to syphon money outside the country. The evasion method would be smuggling cash outside of the country, but that's rather impossible to do on a large scale.

With lower rates of taxation and more open foreign ownership rules, more money would be entering the economy. Your not going to see a major drain the available investment capital in Canada, in my opinion. You need to sell domestic assets to take money out of the country, and it's likely going to be another foreigner buying these assets, injecting that money back into the country. Rich people don't have $10mil in their chequing account, they don't just log onto EasyWeb and click Interac money transfer and send it to Grand Cayman. They have to sell assets, to someone else, so really the money doesn't leave per say.

Retain economic soverignty? I'm unconcerned with mere symbolism of ownership. If it makes our companies more efficient, and makes Canadians working there or otherwise exisitng in the country more money, I could care less who owns them.

The one exception is companies controlled by foreign governments, such as China trying to take over the Oil Sands... they could operate contrary to our desires. But a free market company, say European or American, owning Canadian assets is going to attempt to operate them at the greatest profit, not for political gain. These people have shareholders that want returns.

The above discussion from another thread seems concerned about where the money is. Where the money is is irrelevant. It's the real asset, not the money, that matters. (I'll admit that where the accounting takes place matters for tax collection but that's an issue regardless of nationality or sector.)

Canada's land, trucks, buildings, warehouses and businesses are going to stay in Canada. Far more important is who controls the real asset. Is it a foreigner or a Canadian who decides whether the truck should go to the warehouse in Moose Jaw or Red Deer?

Should we allow someone in America (but not China) to take that decision? IOW, should we discriminate foreign ownership by nationality?

If the truck is delivering newspapers or PVC pipes, should we restrict the decision to someone with a Canadian passport? IOW, should we discriminate foreign ownership by sector?

If you own a Canadian business, should a government bureaucrat have the power to vet your decision to sell to a non-Canadian? If a rich Russian or Chinese offers you top dollar for your house, should a bureaucrat have the power to forbid the sale?

[jdobbin]

No restrictions unless there is a national security issue such involved.

[geoffrey]

In the same thread, Riverwind presented a completely reasonable answer when it came to who gets to own Canadian assets.

The rule should be simple: Ask if it is possible for Canadians to purchase the company doing the acquiring (assuming they had the money). If it is legally impossible for Canadians to purchase the company doing the acquiring then the takeover should be denied. This would exclude all gov't and quasi-gov't organizations without creating a rule that directly discriminates against certain countries.

I couldn't agree more. If we can't buy the company that is purchasing our assets, then it shouldn't be allowed. This would exclude state owned operatives in China or elsewhere.

Past that, does it really matter who is trying to buy out 'stuff?' If they are attempting to operate the company at a profit, they are doing simply what a Canadian owner would do. What really changes for anyone?

[Canuck E Stan]

Should we allow someone in America (but not China) to take that decision? IOW, should we discriminate foreign ownership by nationality?

If the truck is delivering newspapers or PVC pipes, should we restrict the decision to someone with a Canadian passport? IOW, should we discriminate foreign ownership by sector?

If you own a Canadian business, should a government bureaucrat have the power to vet your decision to sell to a non-Canadian? If a rich Russian or Chinese offers you top dollar for your house, should a bureaucrat have the power to forbid the sale?

August,

Canada hasn't been owned by Canadians for a long long time.

Foreigners have bought up just about anything that can be be pulled from the ground in Canada for decades.

Canadians don't have the capitol to own their own country.We're a big hole to draw from, first by American interests for decades,and soon it will be China.

Foreign money talks,Canadians just listen.

[B. Max]

If the truck is delivering newspapers or PVC pipes, should we restrict the decision to someone with a Canadian passport?

Rules called the cobotage laws already exist that cover that in this country and the US.

[August1991]

Canada hasn't been owned by Canadians for a long long time.

You'd be surprised how wrong you are. Ownership in Canada is not only restricted by passport but also by province.

If the truck is delivering newspapers or PVC pipes, should we restrict the decision to someone with a Canadian passport?

Rules called the cobotage laws already exist that cover that in this country and the US.

Cabotage refers to foreign companies transporting Canadian goods or passengers within Canada. This is generally forbidden. It's even forbidden within provinces for firms based outside of a province.

You may think you own your house but you don't own any oil/gold found below it, you don't own the air above it and you probably don't have the right to burn your house down. If you're a foreigner, your rights are even more restricted. You can't use the house to open a business - but that may be true if you're a Canadian too. (Don't park your truck advertising plumbing service in front of your house in a residential neighbourhood.)

----

My basic question remains. Should we restrict who controls the use of real assets (land, trucks, warehouses) in Canada? Should someone in Beijing, New York or Toronto decide freely what to do with Canadian assets?

[geoffrey]

My basic question remains. Should we restrict who controls the use of real assets (land, trucks, warehouses) in Canada? Should someone in Beijing, New York or Toronto decide freely what to do with Canadian assets?

The owners objectives are the same, what does it matter? They all want to make the most profit possible.

The exception would be Chinese government (or any governmentally owned corporation) buying out our companies. Then they aren't operating for profit... they are operating for political objectives.

[mikedavid00]

Should we allow someone in America (but not China) to take that decision? IOW, should we discriminate foreign ownership by nationality?

I would favor this of course. But the foreign investment issue is complex. You can't go all in or all out. There has to be a balance.

I personally feel that the more Canadian owned a business is, the better. IF there is foreign invistment, they can't control the majority of shares. I don't know. Issue is too complex. All I can say is there is a balance that should be struck.

Also, I predicted that when Canada falls apart financially, we will sell off our land and make it a territory. For instance, a part of The GTA or Vancouver being sold to Hong Kong and becoming a state of Hong Kong within Canada. I believe we'll be alive to see this take place so it's a matter of time. We already almost have 'nations within a nation' right now, it just needs some more time to be official.

[mikedavid00]

Canada's land, trucks, buildings, warehouses and businesses are going to stay in Canada.

Don't be so sure about that. If the east succseeds and the west falls 30 years from now, it's very conceivable that they will be a potion of our land and zone it as their own in order to evade terrifs and have access to our recourses. Our currupt gov't will allow this to happen.

We already have nations within Canada that does trade big time with back home. It's the next logical step that they will just purchase a 'zone' of Canada. Right now is not the time becuase we're still wealthy. It's happened in the past with other countries. There's no reason why it couldn't happen here in the future.

[August1991]

Canada's land, trucks, buildings, warehouses and businesses are going to stay in Canada.

Don't be so sure about that.

True, I could be wrong about the trucks. They can be driven outside of Canada. I'm more confused about taking Canadian land out of Canada.

MikeDavid, I'm interested in moving my land from Montreal to Manhattan, in the East 30s. I'm willing to split any profits. You can PM me.

[Charles Anthony]

The exception would be Chinese government (or any governmentally owned corporation) buying out our companies. Then they aren't operating for profit... they are operating for political objectives.

Every government is operating for political objectives. How are political objectives different from a government agent's profit? I believe you are trying to avoid admitting that the motives and morals of your business partners are an important factor in your business decisions. They are in mine -- to a degree.

My basic question remains. Should we restrict who controls the use of real assets (land, trucks, warehouses) in Canada? Should someone in Beijing, New York or Toronto decide freely what to do with Canadian assets?

The Opening Post asks about foreign investment. The identify and nationality of foreign investors matters not because currently our livelihood depends on doing business with the Chinese and the Americans. We can not survive otherwise and neither can they. The Chinese would not upset that -- I am sure they understand capitalism more than we want to admit.

We may as well ask: Should we stop doing trade with people outside of Canada? To which all Canadians of all political stripes will answer a resounding "Hell, No!" in harmony. Some voices will be higher pitched while others will be lower pitched, but they will all be singing the same song.

Given that American monetary policy is now being set by the Chinese government and the American monetary policy indirectly affects Canadians and we adhere to a fiat currency, why would someone in Peking or New York or Toronto care about Canadian physical assets?

[Borg]

To answer the original question:

Sure - why not? We have been doing this forever and have lost actual control ofwhatever resources this country has - wait for it - water is going to be the next real big one - already started in a small way - but it will get real big - real soon.

Someone / some enitity will be taking big water out of the lakes and selling it aorund the world. Legislation, free trade and what ever other contracts that are in place will somehow be modified and or ignored to allow this to happen for "the good of all Canadians". After all Canada has more water than it needs.

Borg

[Figleaf]

I am reluctant to let important Canadian companies disappear into foreign corporate empires. I prefer to see it go the other way.

We need more Manulifes, not Incos.

I can't see why any Canadian would object to this goal -- the question is what measures are reasonable in that regard.

Prohibiting all foreign investment would hamper growth and destroy substantial wealth in our stock markets. However, I believe there is some merit in limits on foriegn corporate control.

Also, government should have so strategic flexibility to support domestic corporations.

[Figleaf]

duplicate deleted

[madmax]

The owners objectives are the same, what does it matter? They all want to make the most profit possible.

If the owners objectives are the same.

However

Sometimes the objective is to purchase the trade, technology, information, or intellectual property, shut down the Canadian Facility, and operate with US capital in China or India.

Which, is why, when you mentioned some month or so ago about taxing money leaving the country, (don't know if you followed up on it or not, I couldn't find a followup) I became very interested in the initiative, vs corporate taxes, which don't work, are easily evaded etc.