Afghan mission "doomed to fail"

[Catchme]

No, I'm simply wondering what the solution is, as many on this thread want us to pullout. I also highly doubt thing's will get better for the Afghan's as RAWA states if we leave the area. Looking at different news sources it seem's to me that quite a few Afghan's want us to stay.

Oh dear, you just have to stay on message eh, nice try relegating RAWA to the level of a news agency. The fact that you tried such a thing is sickening in itself, discounting the voice of women in Afghanistan is incomprehensible. If you are military in Afghanistan it is no wonder they want you gone.

For those that did not know RAWA IS NOT a NEWS agency, nor is it operating from afar. It is the voice of AFGHAN women who have been fighting, in Afganistan, and around the world, since 1977, against all odds for their freedom and rights.

Madmax's post hits it quite clearly.

[bush_cheney2004]

Weird heh, that the USA wants to get firm with Iran, who has NO nukes and who has done nothing to the west when compared to Pakistan.

Not sure what Pakistan has done to the West....unless you mean using Canada's nuclear reactor technology (like India) to build the Bomb. LOL!

Exporting Disaster

~ The Cost of Selling CANDU Reactors ~

http://www.ccnr.org/exports_3.html#3.3

[scribblet]

No, I'm simply wondering what the solution is, as many on this thread want us to pullout. I also highly doubt thing's will get better for the Afghan's as RAWA states if we leave the area. Looking at different news sources it seem's to me that quite a few Afghan's want us to stay.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4989456.stm

I tend to agree, things will only get worse, especially for the women if we do pull out.

BTW, I didn't take it that you were referring to RAWA as a news agency, don't know where that came from.

[Catchme]

Weird heh, that the USA wants to get firm with Iran, who has NO nukes and who has done nothing to the west when compared to Pakistan.

Not sure what Pakistan has done to the West....unless you mean using Canada's nuclear reactor technology (like India) to build the Bomb. LOL!

Exporting Disaster

~ The Cost of Selling CANDU Reactors ~

http://www.ccnr.org/exports_3.html#3.3

HERE ARE SOME FAQ'S AS OPPOSED TO SLAMMING CANDU

As an issue affecting CANDU reactors, the matter is irrelevant. The technology for producing electricity with a CANDU reactor is highly incompatible with the production of weapons-grade plutonium (see related FAQ). However, because of the highly technical differences between research reactors and power reactors, along with the regrettable fact that the Indian affair is linked to Canadian technology, the incident has caused some confusion.

A webpage on Canada's nuclear history, maintained by Morgan Brown, can be found on the website of the Canadian Nuclear Society.

On May 11 and 13, 1998, India shocked the world by conducting five underground nuclear test explosions. India was known to have nuclear weapons capability (see previous FAQ), but both the boldness of its 1998 tests (in a climate of global reduction in nuclear arsenals and tests), and the sophistication of the tests (including thermonuclear technology), took international observers by surprise. Pakistan followed shortly afterwards with nuclear test explosions of its own.

The Indian tests have two possible links to Canadian-supplied technology: (1) some of the plutonium used may have been generated in the CIRUS research reactor supplied jointly by Canada and the USA about thirty years earlier (see previous FAQ); and (2) some of the tritium used in the development and implementation of India's thermonuclear devices may have been extracted as a by-product from the heavy-water moderator of India's pressurized-heavy-water power reactors based on Canadian CANDU technology [1]. It is also possible that India used some of its unsafeguarded "CANDU-derivative" reactors (the copies of its two CANDU reactors, but unlike the CANDU units, not covered by UN-based safeguards) to generate weapons-grade plutonium [2]. However, much of this information remains unconfirmed, and subject to speculation by outside observers.

http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/cnf_sectionF.htm#x1

[bush_cheney2004]

HERE ARE SOME FAQ'S AS OPPOSED TO SLAMMING CANDU

Hmmm....I see you edited the original assertion that CANDUs had very little to do with India's and Pakistan's program development. Well hell, Canada had even more to do with nuclear weapons development in the US and Britain, providing raw materials for nuclear fuel / weapons cycles, including DU!

I love CANDUs...a very smart design.

Anyway, I love to battle with posts at ten paces...here is one of my most favorite CANDU mocks....from Canadians themselves:

CANDU

(Sung to the tune of "I've Got the Horse Right Here" from Guys and Dolls)

Written by Alison Acker of the Victoria Raging Grannies and Gordon Edwards, president, CCNR

If you're a wannabe

At starting World War Three

But you don't have nuclear Technology

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

It's the very best way for you,

We'll give you the money too!

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

You need uranium To get plutonium

And we've a lot to sell in Saskatchewan,

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

We'll give you the fuel too,

So you can do what you want to do!

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

With the plutonium You make an Atom Bomb

And join the club like India and Pakistan

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

Get Superpower status too,

With tritium from our CANDU

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

But if you detonate We won't cooperate …

We'll put you in a sad and sorry state

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

You'll feel so bad and blue,

Cause we won't talk to you

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

But just you wait a while You'll see us start to smile

And soon you're back in our CANDU owner's file

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

You're one of the family too,

And we're all mighty proud of you

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

For we do not oppose The atom bombs of those

Who will protect us from our fearsome foes

CAN-DU, CAND-DU

The Americans have their bombs too

And NATO thinks they're neat toys too

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

So what the heck if we Sell CANDUs overseas

We've got to share the technology if you please,

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

What's another bomb or two,

You gotta give the devil his due

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

[Catchme]

HERE ARE SOME FAQ'S AS OPPOSED TO SLAMMING CANDU

Hmmm....I see you edited the original assertion that CANDUs had very little to do with India's and Pakistan's program development. Well hell, Canada had even more to do with nuclear weapons development in the US and Britain, providing raw materials for nuclear fuel / weapons cycles, including DU!

I love CANDUs...a very smart design.

Anyway, I love to battle with posts at ten paces...here is one of my most favorite CANDU mocks....from Canadians themselves:

CANDU

(Sung to the tune of "I've Got the Horse Right Here" from Guys and Dolls)

Written by Alison Acker of the Victoria Raging Grannies and Gordon Edwards, president, CCNR

Sure did, thought it was too strong of a comment!

Oh, I love the rager grannies, have heard them sing it many a time. In fact, at my own organized events.

Totally agree with with you Canada's nuclear supply, and Candu's could be better technology than fossil fuels, it just is where one puts them.

[madmax]

Not sure what Pakistan has done to the West....unless you mean using Canada's nuclear reactor technology (like India) to build the Bomb. LOL!

Supporting and Exporting Terrorism.

[madmax]

I tend to agree, things will only get worse, especially for the women if we do pull out.

Nope won't change a thing for them, whenever we choose to leave.

We could leave tommorrow, or in 20 years, as long as a deaf ear is turned to the Women seeking their rights, like has just occurred, there will not be changes for the better.

Regardless, While I feel for RAWA and them attaining their freedom, Canadian Soldiers cannot provide such a cultural change. This is going to take Generations and education to get Afghan Society away from the stone age. Islamic Fundamentalism is so ingrained into the culture since the USSR invasion, I really do think it is foolish to think our presence today tommorrow or in 50 years is going to make a difference. That is why I laugh each time someone here states all the benefits that the invasion has provided Afghan women in terms of freedom.

[Canadian Blue]

Oh dear, you just have to stay on message eh, nice try relegating RAWA to the level of a news agency. The fact that you tried such a thing is sickening in itself, discounting the voice of women in Afghanistan is incomprehensible. If you are military in Afghanistan it is no wonder they want you gone.

What, I'm using the BBC to show that more people support the current NATO presence then what RAWA says. I don't see what's so sickening about using a credible news source.

Honestly, are you just trying to be a drama queen?

For those that did not know RAWA IS NOT a NEWS agency, nor is it operating from afar. It is the voice of AFGHAN women who have been fighting, in Afganistan, and around the world, since 1977, against all odds for their freedom and rights.

Is it the voice of every single Afghan women, and do you think all Afghan women want NATO to leave so their country can get 10X worse, and perhaps we might see the Taliban come to power. Since you really can't prove that Afghan's want us to leave other than the odd Taliban sympathizer or a few people who aren't representative of the entire Afghan people, perhaps you should consider finding a new argument.

[madmax]

What's another bomb or two,

You gotta give the devil his due

CAN-DU, CAN-DU

Start a Candu thread, you are straying quite alot with the jingle without furthering the discussion.

[madmax]

Since you really can't prove that Afghan's want us to leave other than the odd Taliban sympathizer or a few people who aren't representative of the entire Afghan people, perhaps you should consider finding a new argument.

Determining the level of Taliban Sympathyzing is the key. Obviously, more people are swaying back towards the Taliban in the past year. This is troubling that such a thing would occur five years on. There are reason behind this, and like Army Guy suggests, the Taliban play for the peoples attention, sympathy, and support just like our forces try to do.

If someone is mentioning that we are making mistakes, that is making it easier for the Taliban to gain support, vs erode Taliban support, and they view the Taliban as the enemy, I would take these comments very seriously and not brush them off as silly girls.

[madmax]

Don't come over here and tell us that despite teh fact some of our best and brightest are dying over there trying to help her and her cause, that we are doing it all wrong. Apparently we just aren't good enough for her and her followers. For that she is easily dismissed.

Silly Girl Eh.

[bush_cheney2004]

Start a Candu thread, you are straying quite alot with the jingle without furthering the discussion.

No, I think I made my point vis-a-vis Pakistan and a "doomed" mission. Carry on....

[madmax]

If the same were to happen to Musharraf with nuclear weapons in the mix, problems with the border would seem minor. Therefore, while I do think it's important to pressure Pakistan, it's a balancing act.

It would be great if Pakistan would give up nuclear weapons, but that's not going to happen.

Their are those that suggest pre-empting nuclear threats. Iraq, Iran, North Korea come to mind. There are countries that have given up Nuclear technology South Africa, and those that gave up programs Libya.

So, you have Identified Pakistan as a potential major threat, that is being prevented by a sole military dictator, whom has elements within his own that could overthrow him with the support of the ISI and Islamic Fundamentalists.

You don't believe in applying pressure on Pakistan to give up its nuclear weapons, as it provides a threat to us?

I think the best way to deal with the Pakistan problem includes three things:

1) Therefore, why expect Pakistan to do it all when clearly more can be done on the Afghan side?

Something about the mountains makes this extremely difficult. Afghans and foreign fighters aren't being trained and recruited in Afghanistan, but Pakistan which Afghanistan can do nothing about.

2) Use special ops and UAVs to go after problem makers in the Pakistan provinces that the Pakistani government doesn't control. I'm not sure about special ops, but I know that UAVs have already been used in Pakistan.

I hope you don't know what special ops are doing Particulary if they ever operated in Pakistan. If an incident occurred inside the Pakistan border, with ground forces, I would think that this in itself could cause the populace to begin to undermine Mushy, and your concerns about his overthrow be even more possible.

3) Cracking down on the border will not make problems within Pakistan go away. Therefore, the US should make it clear, and they probably have privately, that if there is another attack and it can be traced back to Pakistan, attention will be focused on Pakistan, and it won't be the kind of attention that Pakistan wants. In other words, make it clear that it's in their own interest to get a handle on the problems in their country as a matter of self-preservation.

Hmm, I am starting to like this part.

What bothers me about Mushy, is that when he and Karzai were feuding publicly, and the media questioned Pakistani actions, he could only reply, that he couldn't talk because he had a book deal.

[Catchme]

Since you really can't prove that Afghan's want us to leave other than the odd Taliban sympathizer or a few people who aren't representative of the entire Afghan people, perhaps you should consider finding a new argument.

If someone is mentioning that we are making mistakes, that is making it easier for the Taliban to gain support, vs erode Taliban support, and they view the Taliban as the enemy, I would take these comments very seriously and not brush them off as silly girls.

Your're absolutely correct madmax.

It' amazing that they would try to discount and minimize the voice of Afghan women. The very people they have alleged they are there to give voice to.

Seriously, it is no wonder, things have gone from bad to worse. Now with the USA pulling out a battle group to send to Iraq, who knows exactly how worse is worse going to be.

[Canadian Blue]

The USA is pulling a battlegroup out of Afghanistan???

[madmax]

Now with the USA pulling out a battle group to send to Iraq, .

Do you have an article, proof, something to back up that the USA is pulling a battle group out of Iraq?

In fact, I have information suggesting the opposite.

More U.S. troops may go to Afghanistan

By ROBERT BURNS

AP military writer Saturday, January 20, 2007

[oas:casperstartribune.net/news/world:Middle1]

BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates suggested Wednesday he would ask President Bush to send more troops to Afghanistan, an increase that could intensify pressure on a U.S. military already straining to wage the war in Iraq.

After two days of talks with American, NATO and Afghan officials, Gates said he was impressed with progress toward stabilizing and rebuilding Afghanistan. Yet he also said military commanders want to add U.S. troops to the 24,000-strong American force now there, the highest level of a 5-year-old war.

While Gates used no figures, a senior official traveling with him said the prospective increase would not be large -- possibly one or two battalions, no more than a couple of thousand soldiers. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because no decision had been made.

Gates stopped short of saying he would recommend the increase. Yet he offered a rationale for reinforcing a war effort that has seen the quick toppling of the Taliban rulers of a country that had been sanctuary for al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, only to have combat flare in recent months with renewed Taliban attacks.

[Catchme]

Gawd, why do I even bother posting things here, if people don't read the whole thread anyway.

It is in this thread, a ways back. I am not going looking for it again either, the article said in a matter of weeks one would be pulled from Afghanistan to go to Iraq. It was a concern, the article said, because it was from an area that the intell said the Taliban were planning on attacking.

hmmm, now I think about it, it might be in the other thread we are discussing Iraq/Bush on. I posted it yesterday or the day before. Or maybe it is a couple pages back here, oh well happy looking... if I stumble across it again, I will repost it.

[Catchme]

Now with the USA pulling out a battle group to send to Iraq, .

Do you have an article, proof, something to back up that the USA is pulling a battle group out of Iraq?

In fact, I have information suggesting the opposite.

Well, your article's date is more current than mine was, I believe it was dated the 10th or 12th of January.

And that's good, if true, as the article, that I posted part of, said because of the intell they were going to have meetings to try and prevent the shift and perhaps try to get more in. Sounds like they did.

But when reading your snip, I would not be sure of what is going to happen because of these 2 comments:

Gates said he was impressed with progress toward stabilizing and rebuilding Afghanistan

Gates stopped short of saying he would recommend the increase

And because the article I posted about and linked to, I believe stated Gates was unwilling to add more and that it was he who wanted the group taken out and sent to Iraq.

[Canadian Blue]

Gawd, why do I even bother posting things here, if people don't read the whole thread anyway.

Sorry, I can't imagine how difficult it is when you're proven wrong.

It is in this thread, a ways back. I am not going looking for it again either, the article said in a matter of weeks one would be pulled from Afghanistan to go to Iraq. It was a concern, the article said, because it was from an area that the intell said the Taliban were planning on attacking.

Except that other news sources have said otherwise, especially the more up to date ones.

hmmm, now I think about it, it might be in the other thread we are discussing Iraq/Bush on. I posted it yesterday or the day before. Or maybe it is a couple pages back here, oh well happy looking... if I stumble across it again, I will repost it.

Nobodies going to go looking for an article that may or may not exist because you can't back up you're statements. Besides it's probably some "independent news source" with no credibility anyways.

[Catchme]

Don't know, never been proven wrong, unlike others who make such an accusation.

Already stated madmax's article was more current, and therefore maybe be new information on the ground and even why his info may be correct.

But I will remember this little conversation in a couple weeks and say; "I told you so" again.

Plus, get off the trashing of my links, I could've easily trashed madmax's as military propaganda for example, I didn't, as I do not need to attack such things to try and stay on message.

Now have you looked over RAWA's site a bit and thought about what they had to say?

Here is some more info from their site:

Five years ago, the US and allies attacked Afghanistan in the name of bringing "Human Rights", "Democracy", and "Freedom" to the war-torn country. The Taliban regime fell and Hamid Karzai's puppet regime, which included the world-known Northern Alliance criminals, or as UN envoy Mahmoud Mestri said, "the bandit gangs", took over in the name of a fake democracy. However, today, the deceitful policies of Mr. Karzai and his Western guardians have brought Afghanistan to a very critical situation in which disaster is a ticking time bomb that can explode any minute. Treason and mockery have efficiently been used under the name of "democracy" and "freedom" in these five years, and the human rights situation in Afghanistan is a product of the painful deception of the warlord led government.

Northern Alliance criminals backed by the US have their own local and barbaric governments. Just the increasing amount of women who commit suicides by burning themselves can be the best example of a human rights violation in Afghanistan. According to UNICEF, 65% of 50,000 widows in Kabul think that committing suicide is the only option they have. Northern Alliance crooks raped an 11 year old girl, Sanuber, and traded her with a dog. In Badakhshan a young woman was gang-raped by 13 Jehadies in front of her children, and one of the rapists urinated in the mouth of her children who were continuously crying.

[Canadian Blue]

I've looked over RAWA's websites, it's an interesting read, however I don't think it accurately represent's the varying opinion's of the general population of Afghanistan.

But I will remember this little conversation in a couple weeks and say; "I told you so" again.

Don't sweat it, I'm sure you'll forget by tommorrow.

Plus, get off the trashing of my links, I could've easily trashed madmax's as military propaganda for example, I didn't, as I do not need to attack such things to try and stay on message.

The difference being Madmax uses actual credible sources of information.

Don't know, never been proven wrong, unlike others who make such an accusation.

How about this, if you find me wrong, then tell me and back it up.

True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.

Socrates

Here's the thing, I acknowledge I don't know everything that is going on in Afghanistan. However based on what I have read I feel that to pullout right away would be akin to leaving the sheep to the wolves. Afghanistan is far from becoming a plural democracy, however to abondon any hope or possibility would simply imperil the future of those Afghan's who wish to see it happen.

[bush_cheney2004]

Confusing thread...forces in Afghanistan are not organized as "battle groups"....think and read about "task forces" instead.

http://cjtf76.army.mil/main.html

Anyway, it seems that field commanders want more, not less:

U.S. commanders seek more troops for Afghanistan

Defense secretary emphasizes need to stay ahead of Taliban as expected offensive nears

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctime...ws/16487880.htm

Even Hillary Clinton is in on the "more troops" schtick.

[Catchme]

I've looked over RAWA's websites, it's an interesting read, however I don't think it accurately represent's the varying opinion's of the general population of Afghanistan.

How about this, if you find me wrong, then tell me and back it up.

True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.

Socrates

Here's the thing, I acknowledge I don't know everything that is going on in Afghanistan. However based on what I have read I feel that to pullout right away would be akin to leaving the sheep to the wolves. Afghanistan is far from becoming a plural democracy, however to abondon any hope or possibility would simply imperil the future of those Afghan's who wish to see it happen.

Oh, RAWA leaves out the male voices in Afghanistan? You said, we were there for the women remember?

Now who are those other varying opinions? As we KNOW the Taliban numbers are increasing, that is the various other (male) voices telling NATO they are not liking what is going on. That leaves the other opinions not being mentioned would be those of the foreigner installed Karzi corrupt government.

I have before noted where you were wrong numerous times no worries I am sure I will continue to do so.

Yes, I have actually read Socrates dissertations and books, not just pulled a quote.

You seem not to realize the important thing here is, that it is the Afghans who wish to see it happen and they think the west is imperiling their chances.

RAWA believes that freedom and democracy can’t be donated; it is the duty of the people of a country to fight and achieve these values. Under the US-supported government, the sworn enemies of human rights, democracy and secularism have gripped their claws over our country and attempt to restore their religious fascism on our people.

Whenever fundamentalists exist as a military and political force in our injured land, the problem of Afghanistan will not be solved. Today RAWA's mission for women's rights is far from over and we have to work hard for establishment of an independent, free, democratic and secular Afghanistan. We need the solidarity and support of all people around the world.

http://www.rawa.org/rawa.html

Your thoughts are colonialistic regarding sheep wolves, and what you actually mean is you believe they cannot do it for themselves and that someone else has to do it for them. However, they seem to think they are far better off on their own with the Taliban who only kill 2 civilians a day as opposed to 63 a day ny NATO and the Karzi government.

An American military presence in Afghanistan has no benefit for our people. In addition, thousands of civilians lost their lives because of radioactive and cluster bombs and "friendly fire". This fact is obviously a disgrace for those who strongly defend American military presence in Afghanistan.

The biggest factor that strengthens the Taliban is the hatred and disgust that our people have against the Jehadi mafia in the system. When people have no security, when they see lawlessness and how the criminals embezzle millions of dollars from international aid, they are indifferent about the rise of the Taliban. Haji Nek Mohammad who had lost his beloved in a NATO's air strike in Kandahar said, "I prefer to join the Taliban forces because Taliban have so far killed only 2 people in my village while the coalition forces killed 63 people in a single day."

Our people know that there is no difference between Taliban and Jehadi warlords. They both are fundamentalist medieval forces that were created by foreigners and they will join forces against our people in any possible time.

http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-06_e.htm

Oh forgot to add, seeing as how 18 US troops were killed in Iraq today and things appear to be esculating, as we speak, I would feel safe to bet that the "Iraq surge" is going to come faster than one thinks and that the "task force" aka battle group, will be leaving Afganistan even sooner.

US forces in Iraq have suffered some of their heaviest casualties in recent months, with 18 personnel killed.

In the worst incident, a US military helicopter crashed north-east of Baghdad killing all 13 people on board.

A website linked to the former ruling Baath party said an Islamic group shot down the aircraft, but there is no independent verification.

In a separate incident, the US military said five of its soldiers were killed in a clash with militants in Karbala.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6282839.stm

[Canadian Blue]

That leaves the other opinions not being mentioned would be those of the foreigner installed Karzi corrupt government.

Foreigner installed, yet somehow democratically elected as well.

Oh, RAWA leaves out the male voices in Afghanistan? You said, we were there for the women remember?

No, we originally went there as a response to the attacks on the west by Al Queda. However now that we are there we need to help bring about some progressive change, and help ensure the Taliban do not come to power again which wouldn't be all that great for women.

I have before noted where you were wrong numerous times no worries I am sure I will continue to do so.

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.

Laurence J. Peter

Well I guess I'm wrong in you're fantasy world, despite the fact most people have called you out on you're "facts".

You seem not to realize the important thing here is, that it is the Afghans who wish to see it happen and they think the west is imperiling their chances.

Why do soldiers, and generally the media say differently. Oh yeah that's right, it's military propaganda.

Your thoughts are colonialistic regarding sheep wolves, and what you actually mean is you believe they cannot do it for themselves and that someone else has to do it for them. However, they seem to think they are far better off on their own with the Taliban who only kill 2 civilians a day as opposed to 63 a day ny NATO and the Karzi government.

No not really, I believe that it would be a mistake to invade, then leave the country right after destroying Al Queda.

As well, it's funny how you think the Taliban is better than NATO, despite the fact the Taliban are against feminism, and NATO is trying to advance womens rights. Besides, we don't know the circumstances of that village and how the "civilians" died, so far I have seen more Afghan's support our stay in Afghanistan than against.

Oh forgot to add, seeing as how 18 US troops were killed in Iraq today and things appear to be esculating, as we speak, I would feel safe to bet that the "Iraq surge" is going to come faster than one thinks and that the "task force" aka battle group, will be leaving Afganistan even sooner.

Based on knowing very little about the situation, and all the military propaganda [aka mainstream news] saying otherwise.