Afghan mission "doomed to fail"

[madmax]

All they are asking is for NATO to establish security and to assist them in rebuilding

This is what you have replied too from madmax

It's time to cut the Western BS about Democracy and Freedom, and leave them to their Islamic State, with Afghan critics, and Religious Police. All Canadian Forces can do is provide the security for the government.

And you say this.

and if that is thier interputation of islamic law then we have agreed to uphold it...

If thats all you think we are doing in Afgan is providing security then your mistaken and ill informed.

Are we arguing over the echo or the bounce?

[Canadian Blue]

Oh please, spare me the poor me trip that the Canadian military does not get any gratitude for serving their country, it was your choice, as it was mine. Many people serve Canada on many different, and more important levels than our military being in Afghanistan under false premise, and don't get any gratitude either. the military is not an "must applaud" no matter what entity. This does not mean I want their/your lives lost, I don't, I want them/you home.

How were the September 11th attack's a false premise???

[Catchme]

Are you cracked? I wanted proof of this statement. I was heavily skeptical and will be until MikeDavid can provide the proof behind his statement.

You wanna rant about Oil Cartels, and sh*T. Conspiracy theorists would have a heyday with you. Especially when you go and tie Oil Cartels to a very questionable statement of death benefits.

We aren't in Afghanistan for Oil. Infact I would argue the US isn't in Afghanistan with strenght because it the pipeline itself isn't a big enough carrot, when the US defends its "Interests".

Read "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid. He stumbled into the Taliban and the US Government working on the pipeline deal by accident.

I want proof of this 750k statement too, which is what my comment was referring to, I was talking tongue in cheek about the oil companies footing the bill.

Why do you think we are there then? I say we are in Afghanistan for oil and opium, why else would we be there? As we are not there for human rights issues, and I also agree the reason why the USA is not there in a larger force, is because it is smaller peanuts left up to the NATO coalition and the *Dutch to look after.

And I give not 1 fig about people who start spewing conspiracy theory rhetoric. However, I will read Ahmed Rashid's "Taliban" when I get a chance but your description seems to fit what I am saying about Taliban = oil = USA. But I must read The New Authortarianism by Henry Giroux first.

[Catchme]

Oh please, spare me the poor me trip that the Canadian military does not get any gratitude for serving their country, it was your choice, as it was mine. Many people serve Canada on many different, and more important levels than our military being in Afghanistan under false premise, and don't get any gratitude either. the military is not an "must applaud" no matter what entity. This does not mean I want their/your lives lost, I don't, I want them/you home.

How were the September 11th attack's a false premise???

And what pray tell does Afghanistan have to do with Sept 11?

The attackers, were NOT Afghanistan, they did not originate from Afghanistan, and they, Osama Bin and close compatriots may have been sporadically in Afghanistan is all.

Why not attack Pakistan? Or the Sauds?

There are numerous threads here that give full accounting, of why not Afghanistan, I am sure you have read them. So, there is no need to rehash territory already covered here.

[Army Guy]

Catchme:

Oh please, spare me the poor me trip that the Canadian military does not get any gratitude for serving their country, it was your choice, as it was mine. Many people serve Canada on many different, and more important levels than our military being in Afghanistan under false premise, and don't get any gratitude either. the military is not an "must applaud" no matter what entity.

I did not suggest that our country does not show our military graditude, i was being sacrastic with you ensuring you that our government did not show that much graditude upon a soldiers death. And yes many people do have more important jobs in running our nation, most are payed very well but perhaps you could list all those that have unlimited liability, and why it would be asking to much for our nation to recongonze that with a better death benifits package ?

This does not mean I want their/your lives lost, I don't, I want them/you home.

Yes i can tell your very concerned about our well being infact you've said alot, but nothing that would suggest concern about our safety. Nor have you said with any facts why you want us home.

other than make some crazy statements about drug and oil cartels and something about imaginary pipelines and pumping stations.

[Army Guy]

Madmax:

Perhaps i'm missing something here max, excuse me but it's very early here, and i've been at this all night.

i've reread your posts and i'm still not sure if we are on the same page, can you sort me out.

[Army Guy]

And what pray tell does Afghanistan have to do with Sept 11?

Your joking right ?

The attackers, were NOT Afghanistan, they did not originate from Afghanistan, and they, Osama Bin and close compatriots may have been sporadically in Afghanistan is all.

Again your joking ?

[madmax]

Madmax:

Perhaps i'm missing something here max, excuse me but it's very early here, and i've been at this all night.

i've reread your posts and i'm still not sure if we are on the same page, can you sort me out.

Geeze, don't stay up all night for this crap, particularly if you need to be alert today. We can sort each other out, we will agree on some issues and disagree on others. We are not on the same page, but that doesn't mean that the book is a bad read.

[Catchme]

Catchme:

Oh please, spare me the poor me trip that the Canadian military does not get any gratitude for serving their country, it was your choice, as it was mine. Many people serve Canada on many different, and more important levels than our military being in Afghanistan under false premise, and don't get any gratitude either. the military is not an "must applaud" no matter what entity.

I did not suggest that our country does not show our military graditude, i was being sacrastic with you ensuring you that our government did not show that much graditude upon a soldiers death. And yes many people do have more important jobs in running our nation, most are payed very well but perhaps you could list all those that have unlimited liability, and why it would be asking to much for our nation to recongonze that with a better death benifits package ?

This does not mean I want their/your lives lost, I don't, I want them/you home.

Yes i can tell your very concerned about our well being infact you've said alot, but nothing that would suggest concern about our safety. Nor have you said with any facts why you want us home.

other than make some crazy statements about drug and oil cartels and something about imaginary pipelines and pumping stations.

Um, nothing that would suggest concern for your safety but I have shown concern for your well being? How can one show concern for well being but not for safety?

Pray tell why do former military personal become anti-war?

They are not crazy statements about oil and drug cartels and someday I am sure you will admit, at least to yourself, otherwise. Many millions around the world also know what I have been saying and the proof is everywhere on the net, in books, on TV, all one has to do is LOOK and hear! The denial of it is truly astonishing and lends nothing to Canadian military personal credibility.

ENDING AN OPIUM WAR

Poppies and Afghan Recovery Can Both Bloom

Once, the British Empire fought a war for the right to sell opium in China. In retrospect, history has judged that war destructive and wasteful, a shameless battle of colonizers against the colonized that in the end helped neither one.

Now, NATO is fighting a war to eradicate opium from Afghanistan. Allegedly, the goals this time around are different. According to the British government, Afghanistan's illicit drug trade poses the "gravest threat to the long term security, development, and effective governance of Afghanistan," particularly since the Taliban is believed to be the biggest beneficiary of drug sales.

Convinced that this time they are doing the morally right thing, Western governments are spending hundreds of millions of dollars bulldozing poppy fields, building up counternarcotics squads and financing alternative crops in Afghanistan. Chemical spraying may begin as early as this spring. But in retrospect, might history not judge this war to be every bit as destructive and wasteful as the original Opium Wars?

..To see what I mean, look at the history of Turkey, where once upon a time the drug trade also threatened the country's political and economic stability. Just like Afghanistan, Turkey had a long tradition of poppy cultivation. Just like Afghanistan, Turkey worried that poppy eradication could "bring down the government." Just like Afghanistan, Turkey -- this was the era of "Midnight Express"-- was identified as the main source of the heroin sold in the West. Just like in Afghanistan, a ban was tried, and it failed.

As a result, in 1974 the Turks, with American and U.N. support, tried a different tactic. They began licensing poppy cultivation for the purpose of producing morphine, codeine and other legal opiates. Legal factories were built to replace the illegal ones. Farmers registered to grow poppies, and they paid taxes.

...

the U.S. government still supports the Turkish program, even requiring U.S. drug companies to purchase 80 percent of what the legal documents euphemistically refer to as "narcotic raw materials" from the two traditional producers, Turkey and India.

Why not add Afghanistan to this list?

Yet some of these issues can be resolved, by building processing factories at the local level and working within local power structures. And even if the program succeeds in stopping only half of the drug trade, a huge chunk of Afghanistan's economy will still emerge from the gray market; the power of the drug barons will be reduced; and, most important, Western money will have been visibly spent helping Afghan farmers survive, instead of destroying their livelihoods.

The director of the Senlis Council, a group that studies the drug problem in Afghanistan, told me he reckons that the best way to "ensure more Western soldiers get killed" is to expand poppy eradication.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v07/n050/a09.html

They/you perhaps, are trying to eradicate illegal poppy growing that Karzi does not control only. because he is up to his neck in it and will not lose his profit share by having it made legal.

[Army Guy]

Madmax:

Geeze, don't stay up all night for this crap, particularly if you need to be alert today. We can sort each other out, we will agree on some issues and disagree on others. We are not on the same page, but that doesn't mean that the book is a bad read.

I'm on the main camp for some rear duties, got the night shift so it's pretty quite and got lots of time to burn.

Poser:

Um, nothing that would suggest concern for your safety but I have shown concern for your well being? How can one show concern for well being but not for safety?

Concern for our well being or maybe it's just that it furthers cause to have us home..Your not an NDP peacenik are you, with another mission in mind ?

Pray tell why do former military personal become anti-war?

you have yet to prove that your a former anything, infact numerous times you have proven anything but.

even an ex plumber should know something about plumbing.

They are not crazy statements about oil and drug cartels and someday I am sure you will admit, at least to yourself, otherwise. Many millions around the world also know what I have been saying and the proof is everywhere on the net, in books, on TV, all one has to do is LOOK and hear! The denial of it is truly astonishing and lends nothing to Canadian military personal credibility.

All you've suggested is that thier is going to be an oil shortage, and those with oil will have power...now that is news, and has been for years, but what is crazy is you tieing it to Afgan, what was even more crazy was the pipelines and pumping station around our camp, only proving that you are making this up or your sources are full of shiiittt. As for our credibility we've already been judged by our actions, and sorry to burst your bubble but the Canadian people kind of like us....And deep down inside your tinfoil hat i know you like us to...

They/you perhaps, are trying to eradicate illegal poppy growing that Karzi does not control only. because he is up to his neck in it and will not lose his profit share by having it made legal.

Actually in our sector poppy eradication is not that big of a deal, in fact most of it is being carried out by afgan troops or police. As combat operations that have kept us pretty busy...But if the UN est that the profit from poppies out of afgan is only 2.5 bil a year, and finicial assistance for the country is well over that mark would it not make sense for the Afgan government to curb it's drug dealings for risk of losing it's aid.

[Canadian Blue]

And what pray tell does Afghanistan have to do with Sept 11?

The fact that Afghanistan was a safe haven for the Taliban, and it was believed Osama Bin Laden and top Al Qaeda leader's were in Afghanistan.

[normanchateau]

There is a big difference between the interputations of Islam with the current Afgan government and the Taliban, as is eveident with children going to school, or women recieving an education, or not listening to western tradio, or flying a kite to list a few examples.

I would certainly agree with you that the Taliban were unequivocally more restrictive and regressive than the current Islamic government in Afghanistan. Nonetheless, I find the current regime not one which is worthy of our support. The fact it's "better" than the Taliban is insufficient, in my opinion, to sacrifice noble Canadians.

Suppose Iran, another Islamic regime which is less restrictive and regressive than the Taliban, were threatened by a Taliban-like insurgent group. Should Canadians be sacrificed to save Iran? In my opinion, no. What if NATO asked us to? My answer would be the same. I see the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as analogous, though by no means identical, to Iran.

Perhaps one day you'll see it that way as well.

[Catchme]

And what pray tell does Afghanistan have to do with Sept 11?

The fact that Afghanistan was a safe haven for the Taliban, and it was believed Osama Bin Laden and top Al Qaeda leader's were in Afghanistan.

More of a safe haven than Pakistan, or Egypt? Belief that someone is in a country is not a good enough reason to destroy that country and kill civilians for more years on end. Particularily after, it was found that he was NOT there. Just as it was found that Iraq had NO wmd's.

Again, Afganistan had nothing to do with 911, other than perhaps Bin Laden was hiding for a while in the mountains.

[madmax]

Suppose Iran, another Islamic regime which is less restrictive and regressive than the Taliban, were threatened by a Taliban-like insurgent group. Should Canadians be sacrificed to save Iran? In my opinion, no. What if NATO asked us to? My answer would be the same. I see the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as analogous, though by no means identical, to Iran.

Perhaps one day you'll see it that way as well.

That is an interesting comparision since Iran mobilized a 250,000 soldiers on the Afghan border to invade after the Taliban executed 9 Iranian diplomats in Mazar in 1998.

[Canadian Blue]

More of a safe haven than Pakistan, or Egypt? Belief that someone is in a country is not a good enough reason to destroy that country and kill civilians for more years on end. Particularily after, it was found that he was NOT there. Just as it was found that Iraq had NO wmd's.

Except that Afghanistan was the base for Al Qaeda, and yes more of a safe haven than Pakistan and Egypt.

Why do you keep on accusing Canadian's of killing civilian's, when you were "apparently" a member of the military, and you know full well that the Canadian Forces doesn't encourage genocide.

After Sudan made it clear bin Laden and his group were no longer welcome in that year, Taliban-controlled Afghanistan — with previously established connections between the groups, a similar outlook on world affairs and largely isolated from American political influence and military power — provided a perfect location for al Qaeda to headquarter.

Some 200 bin Laden supporters and their families departed Khartoum for Jalalabad by air in 1996. Thereafter al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban's protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense, although only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and the Pakistan border regions are alleged to have trained militant Muslims from around the world. Despite the perception of some people, al-Qaeda members are ethnically diverse and are connected by their radical version of Islam.

An ever-expanding network of supporters thus enjoyed a safe haven in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan until the Taliban were defeated by a combination of local forces and United States air power in 2001 (see section September 11 attacks and the United States response). Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders are still believed to be located in areas where the population is sympathetic to the Taliban in Afghanistan or the border Tribal Areas of Pakistan.

In the immediate aftermath of the attacks, the United States government decided to respond militarily and began to prepare its armed forces for an overthrow of the oppressive Taliban regime's rule of Afghanistan since the Taliban were believed to have been harboring Osama bin Laden and Al-qaeda. Before the United States attacked, it offered Taliban leader Mullah Omar a chance to surrender bin Laden and his top associates. The Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden to a neutral country for trial if the United States would provide evidence of bin Laden's complicity in the attacks. U.S. President George W. Bush responded by saying "We know he's guilty. Turn him over"[38] and the U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair warned the Taliban regime "Surrender bin Laden or surrender power". Soon thereafter the United States and its allies bombed Taliban and suspected al-Qaeda targets in Afghanistan and together with the Afghan Northern Alliance deposed the Taliban government.

QUOTE

Um, nothing that would suggest concern for your safety but I have shown concern for your well being? How can one show concern for well being but not for safety?

Concern for our well being or maybe it's just that it furthers cause to have us home..Your not an NDP peacenik are you, with another mission in mind ?

Armyguy since Catchme think's Canadian soldier's are only there to kill civilian's, I wouldn't be surprised if she want's to charge members of the military with supposed war crimes based on nothing but her blind world view and twisted ideology.

[Catchme]

Wow, your ability to put words in other peoples mouth's is truly spectacular!

Surely, your not trying to say there are NO Afghan civilians dying in NATO offensives and other incidental battles are you?

[weaponeer]

Hi, new to this site. I am in the Canadian Forces, did 6 months in A-stan. Never saw anybody starving!! Only people I saw that hated us were talibs.. The enemy usually hates you when you fight back.

[madmax]

Hi, new to this site. I am in the Canadian Forces, did 6 months in A-stan. Never saw anybody starving!! Only people I saw that hated us were talibs.. The enemy usually hates you when you fight back.

Welcome, This is a Political Site, with lots of "big talk", don't take any comments personally.

Glad you are back.

I think the fact that you didn't see Afghans in need of aid is good for you, but not indicative of the country. Food Shortages have always existed in Afghanistan. It's the main reason that Aid agencies have been there the last 30 years.

Yup, whomever you are attacking won't like you. And Visa Versa.

Are you going back soon?

[madmax]

Except that Afghanistan was the base for Al Qaeda, and yes more of a safe haven than Pakistan and Egypt.

AlQaida means "the Base". The training camps were in Afghanistan. It is where Jihadists were trained. Support for the Jihadists, financial, security, recruiting, has always been in Pakistan and still are to this day.

Egypt was one of the first countries, long before the US, to abandon supporting Jihadists in Afghanistan. They originally released many Islamic Prisoners on the condition that they go to Afghanistan. Thus many of Egypts "problems" were being sent away. One of those wonderful fellows, Ayman Al Zawarahi. IIRC.

Egypt is NOT a safe Haven for Jihadists. Pakistan is a safe haven for Jihadists. Massadras engaging in Islamic Radical indoctrination and hatred to the US operate freely.

These bases in Afghanistan, were originally created by the US Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. There are other bases, ones that were sponsered by Iran, and separate bases farther north for the Tajiks.

The main problem, was that once the trend to train foreign fighters in Afhanistan became the norm, these Jihadist causes spread around the globe for every "greived" muslim.

Before the foreign fighters came to Afghanistan to aid the Afghans against the USSR. Now foreign fighters came to Afghanistan through Pakistan to export their terror around the globe.

Afghans themselves, I have yet to see an Afghan involved in a foreign terrorists endeavor.

Pakistani, Saudi, Kurd, Kuwaiti, Egyptian, Algerian, and the list goes on.

That is why there is hope, once Pakistan is serious about not supporting terrorism and cracking down on Islamic Fundamentalism.

The problems besides Pakistan, is that Afghanistan is no longer the base or the training ground. It is a small testing ground again, but the new base and training ground is in Iraq, and foreign fighters travel between Iraq and Afghanistan, were they have expanded their tactics. Now, Saudi Arabia, fearing Iranian support for SHIAs becoming the dominant brand of Radical Islam appear threatened enough to once again start supporting SUNNI Terrorism.

[Army Guy]

normanchateau:

I would certainly agree with you that the Taliban were unequivocally more restrictive and regressive than the current Islamic government in Afghanistan. Nonetheless, I find the current regime not one which is worthy of our support. The fact it's "better" than the Taliban is insufficient, in my opinion, to sacrifice noble Canadians.

Why is it not worthy of our support, one has to ask the following questions before cementing ones opinion.

The main reason we got involved was to remove the Taliban leadership, that part is done for the most part, next was to get an elected government installed up and running. We have no say in who they the Afganis people elect, the only chioce we had was "would we support that government...and we choose yes..

It is easy to critise that government, for it's corruption, for it's religous values, and for the way they handle things..many of thier decissions do not come up to western values or ideals. But we need to remember that we can not compare the two systems, or the fact that the country has to rebuild from the ground up after 27 years of continueous warfare and the current government has only been doing that for a short period of time.

And has made great strides forward. something that gets lost is the accomplishments, and the only things that get brought up are it's short comings..I wonder just how far along Canada was in it's first 10 years as a nation, and what BS they had to contend with..The wild west comes to mind.

Islamic law will always have a say in thier government and values, that we will have to just live with, will it eventually tone down, i'm sure it will as the standard of living improves..but right now they still have roving bands of terrorist killing or terrorizing the people. And security is thier number one pri...So yes some of thier laws are going to seem tough, restrictive.

Those Noble Canadians that are being sacrificed know what the cost of peace is, they don't die on command,nor are they robots, they are living ,and breathing and free thinking Canadians, they are just like you and the rest on this board. only they have access to more info, and are actually there on the ground, seeing and smelling and experiancing it first hand..If they can decide that this mission is a worth while cause, knowing that, thier decision may put thier lives in danger for a longer period of time. That has got to say something, perhaps the question that the rest of Canada should be asking is "why are they willing to risk thier lives for these people?"..

Suppose Iran, another Islamic regime which is less restrictive and regressive than the Taliban, were threatened by a Taliban-like insurgent group. Should Canadians be sacrificed to save Iran? In my opinion, no. What if NATO asked us to?

If it was to preserve Canadian interests then why not, "highly unlikely" but why not. Afgan is a differnent case, NATO did not have to ask us, we were responding because the US was attacked and we were living up to our agreement. But in your case if NATO "asked" because we were not fulfilling any need or agreement then i would say we as a nation would have to carefully examine the situation. Something that was supposily done by the liberals.

[madmax]

The main reason we got involved was to remove the Taliban leadership, that part is done for the most part, next was to get an elected government installed up and running. We have no say in who they the Afganis people elect, the only chioce we had was "would we support that government...and we choose yes..

Yes, the Taliban Leadership fled in 2001. The elected government of Hamid Karzai has been empowered for some time.

It is now 2007. How many weeks does it take to train a military force? Afghans whom wish to defend this new found freedom, democracy and Islamic Fundamentalist religion, should be quite substansive by now. I would think a large Afghan Army should have been mobilized to defend themselves against the "hated" Taliban.

[Catchme]

The main reason we got involved was to remove the Taliban leadership, that part is done for the most part, next was to get an elected government installed up and running. We have no say in who they the Afganis people elect, the only chioce we had was "would we support that government...and we choose yes..

Yes, the Taliban Leadership fled in 2001. The elected government of Hamid Karzai has been empowered for some time.

It is now 2007. How many weeks does it take to train a military force? Afghans whom wish to defend this new found freedom, democracy and Islamic Fundamentalist religion, should be quite substansive by now. I would think a large Afghan Army should have been mobilized to defend themselves against the "hated" Taliban.

Good points!

One would think that people would realize that Afghans have been militarized and trained enough to kick Britian and Russia out of their country. and thats its pretty arrogent to think that somehow they need Canadians to teach them how to defend their country.

Personally, when I watch propaganda clips of Canadian military training them to be military or police enforcement, I laugh and think wonder how hard of time they had; either finding those who look as inept as they look, or teaching them to look inept, for the filming.

[weaponeer]

Just wanted to "be-bunk" a few MYTHS here about A-Stan history.

First the British: The Brits went into Afghanistan in the 1800's from India, in order to ADD Afghanistan to their empire. The British were armed with muskets, horse & swords. Turns out the Afghanis were armed with muskets, horses & swords, even fight except the Afghanis OUTNUMBERED the Brits, England lost.

Second, Russia: Russia INVADED Afghanistan in 1979 in order to prop up a commie Godless Gov't. Keep in mind, the people of Afghanistan are very religous & conservitive. This angered the Afghan's that not only were they invaded for conquest, but it was by GODLESS non-religous commies. Now add to this the fact that the Russians were brutal beyond belief, massacaring whole villages etc...The Afghan tribes united, were joined and assisted by muslims from other countries & they threw the Rissians out!!

Canada, the US & NATO are there to help Afghanistan!! We are not goint to make it the 11th prov, we ae not there to force hockey or Don Cherry on them, we are there to help. Training a national army & police force will take years. Instilling values like human rights, legal rights, respect for human dignaty takes time in places where this has not existed for many years.

I had an experience with the Afghan Army involving prisoners. The commander (rather senior) could not understand why we needed them, why keep them alive, feed them etc..... Trial, what was the need for that??? We had to explain things to him, he thought we were nuts...

You really want to know what's going on over ther, trn off your computer, join the CF, and go see for yourselves!!!

[Canadian Blue]

Good post weaponeer.

[madmax]

You really want to know what's going on over ther, trn off your computer, join the CF, and go see for yourselves!!!

I have suggested just that to a number of posters here. Your take on Afghanistan is pretty clear. They were bombed into the Dark Ages. The Communists the Kalqs and the Parshams were no longer going to hold back the Islamic Fundamentalists. Once Amin whom overthrew Tureki, decided it was better to kill the Mujahideen whom captured the US ambassodor (resulting in his death), then to talk to terrorists, the USSR knew changes had to be made or the whole country would collapse to Islamic Extremism. The Invasion to implant Babark Karmal who was driven from the country by Marxists nutbars, didn't work and ended with the US backing these Jihadists. Yes, at first they were supporters of "people of the book" Jews and Christians Alike, because we weren't Godless, like the Soviets.

Once Saudis exported their religion to Afghanistan, combined with the US/Saudi Cash and Pakistani logistics, the radicalism and barbarism became complete. Possibly the only effective tool to drive out the Soviets, but at a great cost to the Afghans.

I have a story, where back in the 80s, the group following Abdul Haq, Killed in 2001 by the Taliban, where going to sneek into Kandahar in a petrol truck. Trojan Horse style. Robert Kaplan, a Jewish Reporter, tried to explain to them that they would sufficate from the fumes. Finally he got it across to them that they couldn't smoke in the truck, and they understood.

I find that a strange, yet similar parrallel to getting them to understand the need for prisoners.

But Afghans can take care of their own country, and this can be done easily, as soon as Pakistan stops allowing Madrassas from creating an endless supply of Jihadists to crossing the border to kill Canadian Soldiers.