Simple Question for Those Who Dislike or are Neutral to Israel

[blackascoal]

The Iraq war has also opened the eyes of many as our sons and daughters march off to needless death and maiming for the welfare state of Israel, which gets billions upon billions of US taxpayer dollars .. and which also needs to come to an end.

I'll tell you what. Having an allied state of Israel is a whole lot cheaper than maintaining the old colonial system. The West has to do something to maintain some semblance of order in that part of the world.

You call what is happening in the middle east a "semblance of order"?

This has nothing to do with "order" and everything to do with oil, the subjegation of arabs who possess the oil, and zionist intentions.

[jbg]

JBG, why should Palestinians *not* have a right of return, when Jews do? Palestinians want to return to their homes from 60 years ago. Jews wanted to return to their home from 3000 years ago. Yet, Palestinians are not allowed to return, while Jews are. In fact, if a two-state solution is the goal, how can you have one state dictating the others policies? Isn't that a contradiction of a sovereign state?

If the Jews could safely also "return" to areas in the "Palestininan State" you might have a point. Somehow, a head separate from the rest of the body does not equal two people.

[jbg]

I am qualified to contrast the depraved behavior of people who have surrounded the Hebrews from time immemorial to that of the Hebrews/Jews.

How are you qualified? Were you there?

This is what I call an argument about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin ("Angelpin Argument" for short). Clearly the Hebrews built major civilizations. The surrounding people were, on balance, dangerous savages.

Child sacrifice (now called "jihad") vs. G-d staying Abraham's hand in killing Isaac;

"Jihad" is not child sacrifice in the same sense that the ritualized child sacrifice which was common in Abrahamic times, even among the Hebrews.

The point is that the Akeda marked the end of ritual child sacrifice among the Hebrews. My view is that the tradition morphed into "jihad" where it's holy to butcher your children for the common good, i.e. if in the process a signficant amount of the enemy of the day is also slaughtered.

Sodom & Gomorrah v. Abraham's pleading for their lives if there were more than "10 righteous people";

For one, it was Lot, not Abraham. For another, Sodom and Gommorah, if they actually existed, weren't destroyed by a vengeful God. I mean: really.

Abraham was there, and the one arguing with G-d. Lot escaped, and the righteous ones he looked back at turned into pillars of salt.

Making the desert bloom vs. countries around it that are largely wastelands;

Ah yes, because access to modern irrigartion equipment and techniques is a racial issue.

There is not much "irrigartion" equipment being used by the Israelis. The point, which you are deliberately missing, is that the massive foreign aid that has gone to the Palestinians has been squandered on weaponry and Swiss bank accounts. Why is there money for weapons, but none to meet Gazan governmental payrolls?

Mormal marriages vs. polygamous marriage and pedophilia;

Scriptural evidence indicates that polygamy, though not extremely common, was not particularly unusual among the ancient Hebrews, and certainly not prohibited or discouraged. The Hebrew scriptures document approximately 40 polygamists, including prominent figures such as Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Esau, and David, with little or no further remark on their polygamy as such.

You correctly concede that polygamy was not extremely common, and it did diminish quite early on. You answers on pedophilia? Mohamed just lived little boys.

Orderly crowds vs. Meccan deadly stampedes

I'm still trying to get my head around your notion that stampedes are a race thing:

Stampede at Hindu procession kills 150

Soccer Stampede In Ghana Kills 126

I suppose your post could be classified as "humor", but then it's not all that funny, so...

No, I wasn't joking. Those stampedes are news, and rare, as are the rock concert tragedies. The Meccan stampedes are almost an annual event.

I'll tell you what. Having an allied state of Israel is a whole lot cheaper than maintaining the old colonial system. The West has to do something to maintain some semblance of order in that part of the world.

Yeah becaus ehaving Israel there has been a big time boon to stability in the region.

Better than it not being there. I can quite imagine the bloodbaths that would occur in the total absence of the West in that area.

[Black Dog]

This is what I call an argument about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin ("Angelpin Argument" for short). Clearly the Hebrews built major civilizations. The surrounding people were, on balance, dangerous savages.

I'm not asking that: I'm asking your qualifications to make that call. In any case your pooint is, as per usual, empty. Civilizations come and go. The people you deride as savages were, at various points in history, leaders of great civilizations in their own right, while the Chosen People were waging tribal warfare against one another.

The point is that the Akeda marked the end of ritual child sacrifice among the Hebrews. My view is that the tradition morphed into "jihad" where it's holy to butcher your children for the common good, i.e. if in the process a signficant amount of the enemy of the day is also slaughtered.

Given the extremely recent development and, all told, insignificance of suicide bombing, I fail to see how that practice is connected with ancient ritual sacrifdice. IOW: there's no "morphing"; rather, they are seperate phenomenons.

Abraham was there, and the one arguing with G-d. Lot escaped, and the righteous ones he looked back at turned into pillars of salt.

Actually it was Lot's wife who got all salty. In any case the point is, citing fairy tales isn't going to carry your argument far.

There is not much "irrigartion" equipment being used by the Israelis.

Ahurhurhur. Wait: did you know we spell "color" with a "u"? Crazy!

The point, which you are deliberately missing, is that the massive foreign aid that has gone to the Palestinians has been squandered on weaponry and Swiss bank accounts. Why is there money for weapons, but none to meet Gazan governmental payrolls?

Because their leadership is corrupt and the people live in camps under foreign military governance, unsupported by a massive infrastructure, huge cash infusions (the amount of aid sent to the PA pales to insignificance compared to that recieved by Israel) and a functioning bureacracy. That is: Palestine's economic troubles are due to a number of factors, including the occupation, not soley due to the basic inferiority of the people, as you imply.

You correctly concede that polygamy was not extremely common, and it did diminish quite early on.

Yeah, not common, though universal among the key figures in Jewish history.

You answers on pedophilia? Mohamed just lived little boys.

Who is "Mohamed"?

No, I wasn't joking. Those stampedes are news, and rare, as are the rock concert tragedies. The Meccan stampedes are almost an annual event.

Stampedes reasult from excessive crowding and poor organization: they don't happen becaus eof the race of creed of those involved.

Better than it not being there. I can quite imagine the bloodbaths that would occur in the total absence of the West in that area.

Ah the plea to the hypothetical. If Israel weren't there, the west would still have a toehold.

[jbg]

Where would the West's "toehold" come from?

[blackascoal]

Where would the West's "toehold" come from?

FAIRNESS

[jbg]

Where would the West's "toehold" come from?

FAIRNESS

Is that a country? A region?

[blackascoal]

Where would the West's "toehold" come from?

FAIRNESS

Is that a country? A region?

It's a policy that does not come with blowback.

What we need more than Israel's bought "friendship" are the resources of arab lands, which we aren't powerful enough to simply take by force. The billions upon billions of dollars we've lavished on Israel would have gone a long way in formenting good relationships with everyone in the region.

In spite of all the money and weapons we've given to Israel, they still spy on us and have become one of the reasons the rest of the world hates us.

Not only was our unbalanced policy wrong in terms of the US long-term interests, it was also the worng thing to do morally.

[Rue]

"The billions upon billions of dollars we've lavished on Israel would have gone a long way in formenting good relationships with everyone in the region."

Who is we? Its not the Canadian government. The Canadian government does not provide billions of foreign aid to Israel. So who are you referring to? The U.S.? Let's get something straight. Your selective recitation of history and the use of the word "zionist" as a catch-phrase negative term for any one you perceive is pro-Israel is defective and inaccurate and its inaccurate. Would you please take the time to find out what a zionist is before you trot it out in your unoriginal, anti-Israel rants.

More to the point do you know anything about what the U.S. gains in its support of Israel? You think Jews in Israel sit around rich from Us benefits!!!? Grow up.

The U.S. government subsidizes heavy military trade with Israel for an ibvious reason. Israel is the tester for all U.S. equipment. Israel takes the U.S. military equipment, tests it and refines it. Israel has become an open air research arena for the US military industrial complex. The US benefits from this arrangement for two reasons. Firstly the trade with Israel is tax free for the thousands of US military industrial companies. Secondly it enables them to test their equipment so they can then go on to sell it all over the world. So grow up. The US benefits financially from its support of Israel otherwise it would not do what it does.

Secondly, and if you took the time to research you would find it out, the US most certainly charges Israel interest on what it owes.

So the next time you say "we" be specific as to who "we" is because all you are doing is spouting the same old tiresome stereotypical rhetoric that somehow Israel is just sucking off the world like a parasite. Gee wonder where you got that stereotype from. Its oh so original.

"In spite of all the money and weapons we've given to Israel, they still spy on us and have become one of the reasons the rest of the world hates us."

You made two incredibly ridiculous statements. Firstly Israel does not spy on Canada. Israel has no need to spy on Canada. If anything, CSIS and the RCMP ask for Israeli assistance in providing information as to Hamas and Hezbollah money laundering in Canada. You made a sweeping statement as to Israel spying on Canada that has no substantiation and clearly is your own paranoid, subjective feeling.

As for your simplistic and naive comment that the world hates Canada for being friendly to Israel is that the kind of analysis you offer on this forum as to foreign policy? You have to be kidding. So I get it. Lets all hate Israel and make sure the Canadian foreign policy is one that says we hate Israel, and then the world will like us? Talk about simplistic drivel.

Canada's reputation in the world does not come about whether it is friendly with Israel or anyone else. It comes about from how we conduct ourselves with each and every nation. Your concept of foreign relations and what makes a country popular or unpopular is absurd. You are typical of a mentality that thinks if we hate Israel terrorists will leave us alone.

You are living in an infantile world. The same terrorists that want Israel eradicated also want you eradicated. If you can't understand that its time you start to read the charters of Hezbollah, Al Quadea and Hamas to start with, then read the manifestos of the over 45 Islamic Terrorist organizations in the Middle East laundering money in Canada and committing white collar crimes in Canada to raise funds to fuel terrorist activities across the world.

"Not only was our unbalanced policy wrong in terms of the US long-term interests, it was also the worng thing to do morally."

Who are you to lecture anyone on "unbalanced" (you probably meant imbalanced) policy or morality when your concept of morality is to hate Israel so as not to be hated by others. Now that's moral. Now that is balanced.

Your notion of balance is being bias against Israel, that is clear. That makes your comment absurd.

Here is the bottom line. We know where you stand. Israel bad. Arab world good. Not original. Terribly simplistic.

For those of us who can write, read and think, we realize the Middle East like many other conflict zones, came about from colonial interference and the creation of artificial borders so that Britain and France could control the Middle East and do two things; i-control the oil by creating Arab fiefdoms of friendly corupted regimes, ii-prevent Jews from having a country. The first agenda has been achieved but the cost has been high. The corupt regimes the Americans, British, French, Russians, Chinese and other European Union members care to prop up are costly and in the case of Iraq not worth the price of the oil they have or in the case of Iran, not long-term. In China's case with Iran, China will have depleted all of Iran's natural gas resources well before its twenty five year one sided treaty ends.

The Russians who play both sides of the coin and ally with Israel and Turkey against some terrorists but then cozy up to Iran, find themselves unable to stop Muslim fundamentalists from flowing into their sphere of influence and competing with their Black Sea oil.

The US and the European Union have both tried sucking up to the Arab world and it has made no difference.

The bottom line is industry has finally decided the oil game is up and the car industry is already switching to technology it has been sitting on for over 50 years-electric hybrids, methane gas engines, ethol alcohol engines, hydrogen coversion engines and solar battery power.

Within 50 years if the planet hasn't melted the Middle East will be an after thought as know one will want oil anymore and the price for it bottoms out.

As for your convenient world of bad Israel and good Muslim countries got news for you-the people you are sucking up to despise you more then they do the Israelis. At least they know the Israelis will fight to live and until their death. With you on the other hand, your soft Western values make them laugh. They chomp at the bit until the day they can blow you up as you trot about thinking they are your friends cuz you hate Israelis.

[Rue]

Where would the West's "toehold" come from?

FAIRNESS

Your other statements indicate you are not interested in fairness. You are not neutral as to the Middle East conflict therefore you are necessarily unfair. Yoru concept of fairness, is to favour the Muslim world and be anti-Israel. You have made that clear in your statements. That means your comment above is meaningless.

[blackascoal]

Where would the West's "toehold" come from?

FAIRNESS

Your other statements indicate you are not interested in fairness. You are not neutral as to the Middle East conflict therefore you are necessarily unfair. Yoru concept of fairness, is to favour the Muslim world and be anti-Israel. You have made that clear in your statements. That means your comment above is meaningless.

First, I apologize for the "we". I should have clarified that "we" is America.

Secondly, given your rant, I doubt if anything other than total alligence to Israel would qualify as "fairness" to you .. which means that your comments are meaningless to me.

If YOU took anytime to research the costs to US taxpayers for support and giveaways to Israel, perhaps you wouldn't make such ridiculous claims .. but then again, facts may not matter to you.

I'd suggest that you read "The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion" by Thomas R. Stauffer, a Washington, D.C.-based engineer and economist who writes and teaches about the economics of energy and the Middle East. Stauffer has taught at Harvard University and Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service. Stauffer's findings were first presented at an October 2002 conference sponsored by the U.S. Army College and the University of Maine.

Stauffer is just one of many who have done extensive research into the costs of US support and giveaways to Israel. If you have research that demonstrates that Israel pays back all loans and the US doesn't have to absorb the interest and often the principal of unpaid loans .. I'd like to see it. The cost to US taxpayers in the form of unpaid loans, giveaways, rising oil costs, and lost employment continues to rise.

World Opinion poll after opinion poll demonstrate that "Israel is considered the most dangerous nation on earth", including polls by the European Union, and the US, because of our (America) unholy alliance with Israel, is close behind. What does that cost the US?

I see no reason for going through a long litany of reasons why I disagree with our unbalanced and senseless course in the middle east to you. Obviously, your mind is made up, which I have no problem with. But, I'm a US taxpayer and I have a daughter in the US military, which makes my opinion more than meaningless. I'm part of a growing voice of US citizens who believe that our tax dollars can be better spent, want true balance in our mideast foreign policy, and who do not want to see a single US soldier ever dying again for Israel.

Israel wants to see US soldiers dying in a foolish attack on Iran. The American people do not. America's foreign policy in the mideast has been reckless and senseless. We attacked Iraq without the slightest cause that has proven to be true and empowered Iran throughout the region. We've handed Iraq to Iran like a wonderful christmas present at the cost of tens of thousands of our own dead and wounded soldiers and nearly half-a-trillion dollars in US taxpayer money. The American people ain't (eb) buying another foolish attack in the name of Israel's security .. neither is the rest of the world.

I have no problem with the Jewish people or the Jewish organizations I've worked with, like Jews for Justice, whose agenda is closer to what I believe than what you claim. My problem is with the Zionist government of Israel .. and I don't need your primer on Zionism. I've heard it from jews themselves.

You have a right to whatever opinion you choose, but it's hardly as important or "fair" as you pretend it to be.