Harper's foreign and social policy vs. fiscal

BC_chick · December 22, 2006

Okay, I gotta say I don't mind Harper's fiscal policies, and if Flaherty knows what he's doing, their plans just might work. But his love-in with Israel, intolerance of gays, and attack on environmentalists is a big turn-off for me. If he were to just scale it down even a little, I might vote for him based on his fiscal policies. But as it stands, I can't stand the such a black and white perspective of the world.

On the internet I hear people praising him all the time, but I don't know where these people actually are. Friends aside (obviously cause birds of a feather flock together) I talk to people at work and knowing that politics is a touchy subject I always start by praising Harper's strengths before getting to the point I want to make. But I never even get to the point before someone interrupts me and say "oh no, I can't stand him, he's (insert personal reason here)."

And no, I don't work for a union or some other stereotypical lefty establishment. I work for a very large corporation with over 200 people. Most people do agree though that his fiscal policies are good, but in the end nobody can stand his regressive views.

I think it's a safe bet to say Canadians are by and large fiscal conservatives, yet socially progressive. Any comments?

mikedavid00 · December 22, 2006

Okay, I gotta say I don't mind Harper's fiscal policies, and if Flaherty knows what he's doing, their plans just might work.

I think they already have worked.

But his love-in with Israel

Do you support Islamic terrorists?

, intolerance of gays, and attack on environmentalists is a big turn-off for me.

Its' too bad, becaue there are WAY, WAY more important things to worry about here in Canada than those 2 last things you listed.

If he were to just scale it down even a little, I might vote for him based on his fiscal policies.

Is the envionrment and gays THAT imporant to you over money directly in your pocket and help if you have children?

Dion is against GST cuts, he's against $100 going into each families pocket. Dion will make promises and get nothing done. The Liberals had 12 years to get something done with the environment and did nothing. The Liberals play politics, they govern to their own Liberal party agenda, NOT on behalf of you as a Canadian. Harper is on yourside, and he govern more on your behalf than any other party in the house.

But as it stands, I can't stand the such a black and white perspective of the world.

You shouldn't concern yourself with the world, focus on home, focus on Canada. we have many problems here and I would consider a few crisis situations on our basic services.

The world can stay where they are and stop coming into Richmond and Surrey.

But I never even get to the point before someone interrupts me and say "oh no, I can't stand him, he's (insert personal reason here)."

Yes. Becaue you most likely live in a Liberal/NDP strong hold as I do.

Listen, people who immigrate here to Canada care about immigration and getting more of their relatives over. The ethnic newpapers preach hate on Harper and thus that view gets circulated in those communities. Immigrants do NOT vote for the same reasons you do.

And no, I don't work for a union or some other stereotypical lefty establishment. I work for a very large corporation with over 200 people.

And how many of those people are immgirants/visible minorities? Answer honestly.

Most people do agree though that his fiscal policies are good, but in the end nobody can stand his regressive views.

So the most important things in these peoples lives are gays and anti-Isreal.. Pitty.

I think it's a safe bet to say Canadians are by and large fiscal conservatives, yet socially progressive. Any comments?

I wouldn't say Canadians understand federal fiscal issues for the most part because they are so used to having no say in these issues. They probably don't even understand that 50% of their money goes to tax in order to put into other people pockets.

I also don't think Canadians are very socially progressive. That is what the gov't wants you to beleive. I would put it at around 50/50 progressive.

I also don't think it's the govt's role in any shap, way, or form to dictate to us what our social culture is about.

People in BC simply don't want to assimilate. They have no need or desire to want to be Canadian or speak English.

Vancouver BC, Marc Emery. BC Marijuana party. Although I don't do drugs, I just love watching Marc Emery and his BC Marijuana party stuff on UTube.

Ricki Bobbi · December 22, 2006

But his love-in with Israel, intolerance of gays, and attack on environmentalists is a big turn-off for me. If he were to just scale it down even a little, I might vote for him based on his fiscal policies.
I think it's a safe bet to say Canadians are by and large fiscal conservatives, yet socially progressive. Any comments?

What is wrong with supporting Israel?

Intolerance of gays? He held a free-vote in Parliament on re-opening SSM because he made a promise on the issue during the election. The vote failed. He has said the issue is closed and his Government will not re-open it. Was that really intolerant?

Attack on environmentalists is going a little far. Harper's Government has to work on the environment file. A new environmental plan and minister will be forthcoming in the new year.

As to where people who support him live? Hmmm, look at one of the 124 ridings the Conservatives won in the last election for a start.

mikedavid00 · December 22, 2006

As to where people who support him live? Hmmm, look at one of the 124 ridings the Conservatives won in the last election for a start.

But you know what, look deeper into what she's telling us.

She's obviously a hardcore lib from Vancouver who is not educated on all the issues (no offence BC Chick, just being honest). Represents most voters, but she just can't really find anyhting THAT much to hate about him just as I predicted people would do.

She even said at the end she might vote for him and had tones that she was ore or less satisfied. Remember, the Canadians vote for the devil they know. They vote against partyes' not for them. This was showed in her post. That's a VERY positive sign in the CPC's favor that a lib from Vancouver would say this.

Hmmm..

Ok.. I'm goign to Elections canada's website.

I need to find a spreadsheet or table that shows ALL political ridings and the results of the votes. What I'll do is go through each riding in Canada, select only those where CPC and Lib ran a close race, and the CPC lost. Becuase if Harper keeps his performance up, I do feel that he will gain seats. It's feasible he could even get a majoirty.

But I need to determine fantasy from reality so I hope I can find that source data.

jdobbin · December 22, 2006

Okay, I gotta say I don't mind Harper's fiscal policies, and if Flaherty knows what he's doing, their plans just might work. But his love-in with Israel, intolerance of gays, and attack on environmentalists is a big turn-off for me. If he were to just scale it down even a little, I might vote for him based on his fiscal policies. But as it stands, I can't stand the such a black and white perspective of the world.

I think that you will find that some conservatives will accuse you of supporting terrorism if you don't support Israel. I don't know that it helps the situation but there you have it.

I think there are a number of people like you who are withholding the vote that would give the Conservatives a majority based on social issues.

I have no idea how some people are responding to your observations but I expect you'll be attacked for showing apprehension about voting Tory. Not exactly the welcoming committee, are they?

Ricki Bobbi · December 22, 2006

I have no idea how some people are responding to your observations but I expect you'll be attacked for showing apprehension about voting Tory. Not exactly the welcoming committee, are they?

Guess some people make assumptions of behaviour. For all of us who can read everybody's posts we see who the truly narrow minded really are.

Canadian Blue · December 22, 2006

But his love-in with Israel, intolerance of gays, and attack on environmentalists is a big turn-off for me. If he were to just scale it down even a little, I might vote for him based on his fiscal policies. But as it stands, I can't stand the such a black and white perspective of the world.

Intolerance of gays, I never knew Harper was intolerant of gays [during his Reform party days, Harper and Jan Brown fought against the party becoming socially conservative]. As for environmentalism, I think Harper is starting to take that file more seriously. Love in with Israel, I don't think any other nation would have reacted differently if attacked like Israel was, but Harper would have probably been better off saying he would be neutral, apparently Canadian's don't like PM's who show leadership. I'm still stuck between voting for the Green's or the Conservative's, and if Harper delivers on the environment I'll vote for the Conservative's.

If you don't trust Harper on Social Issues, then vote for a Liberal senator if you get a chance to.

BC_chick · December 22, 2006

"I think they already have worked."

I'm talking about the long-term plan, a little too early to talk isn't it?

"Do you support Islamic terrorists?"

This is exactly the black/white thinking I was talking about.

"Its' too bad, becaue there are WAY, WAY more important things to worry about here in Canada than those 2 last things you listed."

Environment is a HUGE thing, and gays isn't about gays, it's about equal rights for all.

"Is the envionrment and gays THAT imporant to you over money directly in your pocket and help if you have children?"

Hell yes, I'll gladly pay a little extra now to make sure there is an earth LEFT for my children.

"You shouldn't concern yourself with the world, focus on home, focus on Canada. we have many problems here and I would consider a few crisis situations on our basic services."

Read the subject line, foreign policy, social policy, and fiscal policy. You don't like my views fine. But please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't be concerned about.

"Yes. Becaue you most likely live in a Liberal/NDP strong hold as I do."

No actually, last two election it was lib, before conservative for a very long time. But then again, Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper are two very different people.

"Listen, people who immigrate here to Canada care about immigration and getting more of their relatives over. The ethnic newpapers preach hate on Harper and thus that view gets circulated in those communities. Immigrants do NOT vote for the same reasons you do. "

You Conservatives like to say that to give yourselves comfort why you can't convince the rest of us to join you in your beliefs. But no sorry, not true.

"And how many of those people are immgirants/visible minorities? Answer honestly."

Honestly, zero. But sounds like your mind's made up already.

"So the most important things in these peoples lives are gays and anti-Isreal.. Pitty."

No, it's about a neutral, honest, peaceful foreign policy and equal rights at home. There you go again with the black and white thinking. No wonder you love Harper.

"I also don't think Canadians are very socially progressive. That is what the gov't wants you to beleive. I would put it at around 50/50 progressive. "

Okay, that's why Harper's approval rating shot up the roof initially with his fiscal policies and started dropping to half of that when his social policies started coming out.

"I also don't think it's the govt's role in any shap, way, or form to dictate to us what our social culture is about. "

A Christian Evangelical DOESN'T tell us what our social culture should be about? LOL okay.

"People in BC simply don't want to assimilate. They have no need or desire to want to be Canadian or speak English."

Maybe the first-generations, but every second-generation Chinese, Indian, Middle-Eastern is as Canadian and "English-speaking" as anyone else.

"Vancouver BC, Marc Emery. BC Marijuana party. Although I don't do drugs, I just love watching Marc Emery and his BC Marijuana party stuff on UTube."

Hey, I love watching Harper talk about the "so-called green-house gases too." What's you point?

BC_chick · December 22, 2006

"She's obviously a hardcore lib from Vancouver who is not educated on all the issues (no offence BC Chick, just being honest). Represents most voters, but she just can't really find anyhting THAT much to hate about him just as I predicted people would do. "

I see, so if I don't think like you I MUST be uneducated on all the issues and a hardcore lib. Wow!

BC_chick · December 22, 2006

"Intolerance of gays, I never knew Harper was intolerant of gays [during his Reform party days, Harper and Jan Brown fought against the party becoming socially conservative]. As for environmentalism, I think Harper is starting to take that file more seriously."

Translation: if Harper had a majority the gay-marriage issue would be absolved and we would be stuck with the Clean Air Act.

Or do you really believe that something other than his minority government prevented his views about gay-marriage going through, and something other than Dion's platform of the environment made him change his mind OVERNIGHT about the Clean Air Act?

"Love in with Israel, I don't think any other nation would have reacted differently if attacked like Israel was, but Harper would have probably been better off saying he would be neutral, apparently Canadian's don't like PM's who show leadership."

Israel and her enemies are both guilty of crimes. It's not leadership to turn a blind eye to crime in one side of a conflict and condemn the other. There is a lot of things that Israel does that are not right either.

BC_chick · December 22, 2006

I think that you will find that some conservatives will accuse you of supporting terrorism if you don't support Israel. I don't know that it helps the situation but there you have it.

I think there are a number of people like you who are withholding the vote that would give the Conservatives a majority based on social issues.

I have no idea how some people are responding to your observations but I expect you'll be attacked for showing apprehension about voting Tory. Not exactly the welcoming committee, are they?

I cannot believe the anger in the tone of the responses. Incredible.

I heard an interesting quote tonight. If you are busy judging, you can't love. When I heard it, I reflected on it and responded by saying no wonder Islamists and Conservatives are so hostile, they're too busy judging everyone who doesn't look like them, talk like them, think like them.

Who's Doing What? · December 22, 2006

I cannot believe the anger in the tone of the responses. Incredible.
I heard an interesting quote tonight. If you are busy judging, you can't love. When I heard it, I reflected on it and responded by saying no wonder Islamists and Conservatives are so hostile, they're too busy judging everyone who doesn't look like them, talk like them, think like them.

Get used to it. After my first few experiences on these boards I couldn't get over the arrogance and just plain hatred spewed by some here.

What I experienced here was far more effective than any Liberal "scary Harper" advertizing campaign.

Welcome aboard BC_chick.

geoffrey · December 22, 2006

Israel and her enemies are both guilty of crimes. It's not leadership to turn a blind eye to crime in one side of a conflict and condemn the other. There is a lot of things that Israel does that are not right either.

No doubt. I've been very outspoken with condemnation of tactics used by Israel against her enemies. Moderation and civility keep us on the moral high ground.

The big difference at the end of the day though is quite simple. Israel wants peace... it's a 'Western' nation in all typical senses of the word, they want to run their economy, go to work, retire. Hamas and their buddies have been very outspoken saying they will only be satisfied with the destruction of Israel.

There is a considerable difference there. We must recognize that Israel has a right to it's own defence. That includes destruction of terrorist groups by whatever means neccessary. Terrorists have no right to exist... Israel does.

Being said, Israel needs to step up on two fronts. First, ensuring that more services in Palestine are provided by the PA and not by terrorist groups that use sponsored schools as recruiting and training platforms. Second, minimize collateral damage in their operations. Killing innocent people (and there are many innocent Palestinians and Lebanese people) will not help their cause, for each of them that dies, it encourages many more to hate Israel.

Hamas needs to go though. They cannot be recognized as a valid government. Hamas is solely in power to destroy Israel, and that's not acceptable.

Topaz · December 22, 2006

After the election, an US advisor came up to Ottawa to called to Harper advisng him how to deal with the opposition. If you have been watching the govt on TV you would see how they were told, keep throwing the Libs mistakes in their faces and keep reminding the voters the Libs downfall, learn how to avoid questions that may harm you and keep turning it around to the Libs. What I want to know if Harper a "new world order" kind of guy. Has the US slip some $$$ under the table to be more "friendly" to them??? I don't trust Harper and the rest of the Alliance bunch and by the way they have acted and performed, can you blame anyone feeling that way. They are NOT representing the best of Canada and I'm more than ready for an election!!!

margrace · December 22, 2006

It is interesting to read on here the support for Isreal. Big reversal from the idealogys of the 2nd world war where Canadians refused to help Jewish refugees fleeing Germany. It is documented that ships were not allowed to land thier children here. I wonder if one of Mr. Harper's children, when they are a little older announce they are marrying a Jewish person., will meet with any opposition. I think the in your face policies and what is said behind closed door haven't changed much. There are a lot of hypocrites out there.

I speak from a family who in Ireland practised intermarriage between the main religions as far back as 1880, and in Canada who has married into Jewish families since the 1920's. I know what predjudice is out there.

jdobbin · December 22, 2006

I cannot believe the anger in the tone of the responses. Incredible.
I heard an interesting quote tonight. If you are busy judging, you can't love. When I heard it, I reflected on it and responded by saying no wonder Islamists and Conservatives are so hostile, they're too busy judging everyone who doesn't look like them, talk like them, think like them.

It's best not to take things personally. There's an "ignore" feature on these forums.

There are several people here with interesting ideas from across the spectrum. Some of them I just read because while I am interested in what they say, I have nothing to add or I'm just interested in their offering. A few others I respond to and have some discourse on a subject. Generally, I come away from those discussions learning something.

There are also others who will attack you personally. I think you are safe enough ignoring them.

White Doors · December 22, 2006

Besides the personal issues that crept into this forum from both ends of the spectrum this is a pretty good thread.

On the Israel issue, I do think that it IS pretty black and white however. Israel is held to standards that no other country in the world is. They are a free country and are being attacked by murderous terrorists. They are in a lose-lose proposotion. I think they handle it about as best as can be expected. I dunno, but I choose to support the democracy over the terrorists in this one.

thanks for your input BC Chick.

Remiel · December 22, 2006

If you're really going to want to convince anyone, you have to stop using generalizations, even when those generalizations are about genuinely bad folks. When you say, " murderous terrorist " my brain practically shuts off to whatever you have to say. Terrorist, as it is too often used these days, is a generalization. Generalizations are logical falacies. Therefore, it makes more sense, and for a stronger argument, to be specific.

Anyway, BC Chick, it's good to have to year... Whoa... Major brain malfunction... You here...

Ricki Bobbi · December 22, 2006

I love blatant hypocrisy.

I cannot believe the anger in the tone of the responses. Incredible.

But....

Read the subject line, foreign policy, social policy, and fiscal policy. You don't like my views fine. But please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't be concerned about.

and

I heard an interesting quote tonight. If you are busy judging, you can't love. When I heard it, I reflected on it and responded by saying no wonder Islamists and Conservatives are so hostile, they're too busy judging everyone who doesn't look like them, talk like them, think like them.

You have an issue with other people's tone?

Figleaf · December 22, 2006

Okay, I gotta say I don't mind Harper's fiscal policies, and if Flaherty knows what he's doing, their plans just might work.

I think they already have worked.

In what sense?

But his love-in with Israel

Do you support Islamic terrorists?

Do you realize that question is both offensive AND stupid?

, intolerance of gays, and attack on environmentalists is a big turn-off for me.

Its' too bad, becaue there are WAY, WAY more important things to worry about here in Canada than those 2 last things you listed.

I think that's part of her point.

Dion is against ... $100 going into each families pocket.

:lol: Maybe Dion realizes that taxing families to get the money, just to mail it right back to them without adding an value (and in fact adding wasteful administration) is stupid. Of course Harper, the vaunted economist, can't grasp these basics. (He also doesn't seem to get the elementary realities of investment for returns and economies of scale.)

Harper is on yourside, and he govern more on your behalf than any other party in the house.

Who pays you for this crap?

But as it stands, I can't stand the such a black and white perspective of the world.

You shouldn't concern yourself with the world, ...

:blink:

Figleaf · December 22, 2006

What is wrong with supporting Israel?

Partial answer: Israel persists in an illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, preventing the Palestinian people from exercising their inherent right to self-determination.

Intolerance of gays? He held a free-vote in Parliament on re-opening SSM because he made a promise on the issue during the election. The vote failed. He has said the issue is closed and his Government will not re-open it. Was that really intolerant?

Yes, though I'd call it bigotry.

Figleaf · December 22, 2006

...She's obviously a hardcore lib from Vancouver who is not educated on all the issues ...

By implying that she's educated on SOME of the issues, you admit she's further ahead than you.

Figleaf · December 22, 2006

... like Israel was, but Harper would have probably been better off saying he would be neutral, apparently Canadian's don't like PM's who show leadership.

Maybe we don't like disingenuous spin-words like 'leadership' used to cover ideology.

Figleaf · December 22, 2006

The big difference at the end of the day though is quite simple. Israel wants peace...

You try to sound like a moderate, but your whole position and the assumptions that underly it are extremist. Look, if Israel want peace, why is it building settlements on Palestinians' land?

Hamas and their buddies have been very outspoken saying they will only be satisfied with the destruction of Israel.

While Fatah has accepted the existence of Israel and it got nowhere.

Hamas has a negotiating position which, while in no way laudable, is understandable given the history of the region: (A.) they didn't want Israel imposed on their region, (B.) it was imposed against their will, ergo, (C.) it is illegitimate and should be 'destroyed'. They are not wrong about A or B.

We must recognize that Israel has a right to it's own defence.

If only Israel would confine itself to defending itself and desist from occupying the Palestinians and provoking its neighbors.

Being said, Israel needs to step up on two fronts. First, ensuring that more services in Palestine are provided by the PA and not by terrorist groups...

NO. Israel should get the hell out of Palestine, pay reparations, and leave the affairs of Palestinians to themselves.

Ricki Bobbi · December 22, 2006

Partial answer: Israel persists in an illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, preventing the Palestinian people from exercising their inherent right to self-determination.

Partial response. As a sovereign nation Israel has an inherent right to defend themselves. The so-called "illegal occupation of Palestinian lands" is not universally considered so.

Yes, though I'd call it bigotry.

Do explain the bigotry? It was bigoted to put a vote to Parliament? The majority of Canadians opposed SSM at the time it was passed. As much as pundits *claim* SSM is a right guaranteed under the Charter the Supreme Court, the one's with the actual power in this case, pointedly deferred from ruling on the isse.

So please explain your cry of bigotry.