National Daycare

[Canadian Blue]

Do you support or are you against National Daycare. Personally I am in support of the program, however I would like to see something for parents who decide not take a part if they want to raise children themselves. Or even setting a base fee for those people who decide to use it, thus covering most of the costs for the program.

[Canuck E Stan]

Do you support or are you against National Daycare. Personally I am in support of the program, however I would like to see something for parents who decide not take a part if they want to raise children themselves. Or even setting a base fee for those people who decide to use it, thus covering most of the costs for the program.

Daycare thread.......again?

[Canadian Blue]

Never noticed the daycare thread with the 20+ posts all relating to Dion.

[Melanie_]

National Daycare is a misnomer; regulated child care is a provincial responsibility, and each province's system is different. The current "Choices in Child Care" program, in reality a return to the old "Family Allowance" program, bypasses the provinces and provides cash to all families with children under the age of six, so part of your vision is already taken care of.

I have no problem with continuing the Family Allowance, but that really doesn't address the needs of parents who still need to place their children in care. More importantly, it doesn't address the needs of children to have consistent, nurturing caregivers who can provide them with developmentally appropriate care while their parents are at work or school. It certainly does nothing for the parents of children with special needs, who still need to work but have a very difficult time finding affordable care in the private sector. I'd like to see the Feds provide provinces with assistance in setting up and monitoring high quality child care, whether that be centre based or home based. Families can and should pay for the care, unless they can show that they qualify for a subsidy based on a defined sliding scale.

Also, just to clarify, all parents raise their children themselves. Childcare is a support, not a replacement, for parents. Parents who work are still their children's primary caregivers.

[geoffrey]

Also, just to clarify, all parents raise their children themselves. Childcare is a support, not a replacement, for parents. Parents who work are still their children's primary caregivers.

Even if they spend less time with their child than their favourite local government employee?

[Melanie_]

Also, just to clarify, all parents raise their children themselves. Childcare is a support, not a replacement, for parents. Parents who work are still their children's primary caregivers.

Even if they spend less time with their child than their favourite local government employee?

Yes. Parents know their children best, and have a more vested interest in them than even the most dedicated child care worker.

Child care centres who receive funding from the government are generally still independent, aside from being regulated - just as restaurants are. Child care workers are not government employees.

[geoffrey]

Parents know their kids best because they spend the most time with them. I struggle with someone claiming that a parent that spends half the time with their child as someone else knows them better.

In fact, I disagree completely.

[Melanie_]

Parents know their kids best because they spend the most time with them. I struggle with someone claiming that a parent that spends half the time with their child as someone else knows them better.

In fact, I disagree completely.

Geoffery, I know this will sound condescending, but it is not intended to be. You are young, and are not yet a parent. When you are, you will see that as a parent, you see your kid differently than any one else. People who work in child care develop strong relationships with the children in their care, but they are not the same as the relationship between a parent and their child, nor should they be. Parents choose the way they raise their children, and influence them in ways their caregivers can't and shouldn't. Working parents are just trying to provide for their families, which is not an abdication of responsibilities, but rather an acceptance of them.

[mikedavid00]

Do you support or are you against National Daycare. Personally I am in support of the program, however I would like to see something for parents who decide not take a part if they want to raise children themselves. Or even setting a base fee for those people who decide to use it, thus covering most of the costs for the program.

Ok this was argued in Ottawa for the longest time when I lived there.

If you are talking about the daycare program where we build 'schools' and have trained teacher/daycare workers looking after the kids, then it's not feasible.

I think they estimed it would almost be the cost of running the school system. So that would be 80 Billion dollars federally.

The reason why is because the teachers union claimed they would be part and help up a daycar teachers union thus the daycare workers would be over staffed, and getting paid $50k each a year with loads of benefits.

Basically it was never well thought out and it's not feasible and the country is not 'rich' enough to afford it.

Keeping a PRIVATE HMO HEALTHCARE style system would be the best way. Actually I think that's the current way isn't it? Basically you own a private daycare center and bill the gov't. The employees are thus paid reasonably and everyone is happy. If there is more daycare needed, then stop letting in people into the country who use these services. =)

[mikedavid00]

Parents know their kids best because they spend the most time with them. I struggle with someone claiming that a parent that spends half the time with their child as someone else knows them better.

In fact, I disagree completely.

Geoffery, I know this will sound condescending, but it is not intended to be. You are young, and are not yet a parent. When you are, you will see that as a parent, you see your kid differently than any one else. People who work in child care develop strong relationships with the children in their care, but they are not the same as the relationship between a parent and their child, nor should they be. Parents choose the way they raise their children, and influence them in ways their caregivers can't and shouldn't. Working parents are just trying to provide for their families, which is not an abdication of responsibilities, but rather an acceptance of them.

If I was a woman I would want a man to be an investment banker so he could provide for me and my family and I wouldn't have to work so I can raise the kids.

But we are Canadians. We are poor and working poor. We have to work. Daycare is not a choice, but a must for most people.

I notice that stay at home mom thing is still super big in the US.

[Saturn]

Also, just to clarify, all parents raise their children themselves. Childcare is a support, not a replacement, for parents. Parents who work are still their children's primary caregivers.

Even if they spend less time with their child than their favourite local government employee?

In case you aren't aware there are 168 hours in a week. If a child spends 40hrs/wk in daycare, that still leaves 128hrs to be spent with the parents. Even if you take out 8hr/day for sleep, this still leaves 72hrs with the parents. That doesn't include vacations which parents usually spend with their kids. Enough of this bull about the government employee. Or are you saying that kids shouldn't go to school because teachers are government employees? That's nonsense.

[geoffrey]

Parents know their kids best because they spend the most time with them. I struggle with someone claiming that a parent that spends half the time with their child as someone else knows them better.

In fact, I disagree completely.

Geoffery, I know this will sound condescending, but it is not intended to be. You are young, and are not yet a parent. When you are, you will see that as a parent, you see your kid differently than any one else. People who work in child care develop strong relationships with the children in their care, but they are not the same as the relationship between a parent and their child, nor should they be. Parents choose the way they raise their children, and influence them in ways their caregivers can't and shouldn't. Working parents are just trying to provide for their families, which is not an abdication of responsibilities, but rather an acceptance of them.

Hey, you know best, I'm not doubting anyone's obligations here. I'm sure there are some, if not many, cases where the woman (or the guy for that matter) needs to work to keep a roof over their head and food on the table. Those people need help.

The ones that don't need help are the two six-figure income earners, where I obviously have to wonder if it's best for the child for mommy (or daddy) to be focused more on a bigger car, bigger house or flashier clothes than it raising their child. The government or my tax dollars have no business in supporting this.

I see that with Harper's Child care plan... it's a hand out to everyone, and most of them don't need it. A hand out at all is trouble in my books.

As one very against equalisation of any type, I don't think the focus needs to be on the parents at all. The kid needs to have a reasonable upbringing... if the parent needs to work to do that, then society needs to help 'em out a little. If the parent just needs to work in order to afford the payments on the second Navigator and ski chalet in Jackson Hole then I'm not up for childcare programs.

Ambition is nice, but not at the expense of the next generation. A government free for all system of childcare provides any easier out for parents that prefer ambition to child-raising.

[Saturn]

Parents know their kids best because they spend the most time with them. I struggle with someone claiming that a parent that spends half the time with their child as someone else knows them better.

In fact, I disagree completely.

Geoffery, I know this will sound condescending, but it is not intended to be. You are young, and are not yet a parent. When you are, you will see that as a parent, you see your kid differently than any one else. People who work in child care develop strong relationships with the children in their care, but they are not the same as the relationship between a parent and their child, nor should they be. Parents choose the way they raise their children, and influence them in ways their caregivers can't and shouldn't. Working parents are just trying to provide for their families, which is not an abdication of responsibilities, but rather an acceptance of them.

If I was a woman I would want a man to be an investment banker so he could provide for me and my family and I wouldn't have to work so I can raise the kids.

But we are Canadians. We are poor and working poor. We have to work. Daycare is not a choice, but a must for most people.

I notice that stay at home mom thing is still super big in the US.

Seeing that you are not a woman, you should hope that you marry and investment banker so that she could provide for you and you wouldn't have to work and raise the kids. I hope this works out for you because with all the whining I've heard from you, you are not going to do that well in the workplace.

[geoffrey]

Saturn, relax with the personal attacks there buddy, that's a fast track to the banned category.

--

If daycare is a must for people, and arguably it is for many... what's the best way of providing it?

[Melanie_]

Hey, you know best, I'm not doubting anyone's obligations here. I'm sure there are some, if not many, cases where the woman (or the guy for that matter) needs to work to keep a roof over their head and food on the table. Those people need help.

The ones that don't need help are the two six-figure income earners, where I obviously have to wonder if it's best for the child for mommy (or daddy) to be focused more on a bigger car, bigger house or flashier clothes than it raising their child. The government or my tax dollars have no business in supporting this.

I see that with Harper's Child care plan... it's a hand out to everyone, and most of them don't need it. A hand out at all is trouble in my books.

As one very against equalisation of any type, I don't think the focus needs to be on the parents at all. The kid needs to have a reasonable upbringing... if the parent needs to work to do that, then society needs to help 'em out a little. If the parent just needs to work in order to afford the payments on the second Navigator and ski chalet in Jackson Hole then I'm not up for childcare programs.

Ambition is nice, but not at the expense of the next generation. A government free for all system of childcare provides any easier out for parents that prefer ambition to child-raising.

I'm curious how many double income earners, each in the six figures, actually use child care. My gut tells me they are more likely to hire a private nanny than place Precious Pooky in public child care. My job takes me into child care centres on a regular basis, and what I see are children of middle income families whose parents are working hard to provide for their families.

I'm not advocating a free for all system, but rather a system that provides standards and regulations to ensure the best possible care for kids - parents can foot the bill, unless they can prove they qualify for subsidy.

[Saturn]

If you are talking about the daycare program where we build 'schools' and have trained teacher/daycare workers looking after the kids, then it's not feasible.

I think they estimed it would almost be the cost of running the school system. So that would be 80 Billion dollars federally.

The reason why is because the teachers union claimed they would be part and help up a daycar teachers union thus the daycare workers would be over staffed, and getting paid $50k each a year with loads of benefits.

Basically it was never well thought out and it's not feasible and the country is not 'rich' enough to afford it.

You beat Harper for this instantaneous flip-flop. It's not ok for the teachers' unions to negotiate a $50K salary for their members but it's ok of the medical associations to negotiate $300K salaries for their members. The only conclusion here is that you've either had a change of heart or the teachers are asking too little.

[mikedavid00]

If you are talking about the daycare program where we build 'schools' and have trained teacher/daycare workers looking after the kids, then it's not feasible.

I think they estimed it would almost be the cost of running the school system. So that would be 80 Billion dollars federally.

The reason why is because the teachers union claimed they would be part and help up a daycar teachers union thus the daycare workers would be over staffed, and getting paid $50k each a year with loads of benefits.

Basically it was never well thought out and it's not feasible and the country is not 'rich' enough to afford it.

You beat Harper for this instantaneous flip-flop. It's not ok for the teachers' unions to negotiate a $50K salary for their members but it's ok of the medical associations to negotiate $300K salaries for their members. The only conclusion here is that you've either had a change of hart or the teachers are asking too little.

The healthcare system is already far, far past being ruined. We have a fresh start with child care.

Do we want another Health Canada on our hands with load of beurocracy and teachers unions?

I certainly don't.

Phillipino live-in nannie's are affordable. Just don't expect a mothers love. And you don't know what immigration case you might get dragged into so be careful.

I feel that the gov't subsidies work fine the way they are. I feel that the average Canadian should stay at home with their child for 4 years until they reach kindegarten. Of course, it's also not 1973.

People now have mortgage debt which is eating them alive. It's becoming such a problem now that families don't have extra money to invist for retirement.

The standard of living has taken a nose dive here in Canada since...

since.... hmmm.. when did all this start happening...

hmmmm... could it be....

I... Imm...

[Saturn]

Saturn, relax with the personal attacks there buddy, that's a fast track to the banned category.

--

If daycare is a must for people, and arguably it is for many... what's the best way of providing it?

I don't know much about the issue but handing out cash left and right is not the best way of doing it. I'm thinking more along the lines of forking some money over to the provinces and to employers to create enough daycare spaces and then using some sort of an income based approach to distribute the goods. Something along the lines of a refundable tax credit with a clawback for families with working parents - in other words, if mom and dad make $200K each, they don't need financial help and if mom works while dad sits at home watching sports, then they don't need support either. In other words, only parents who have to work to make ends meet should get support. On the other hand, the supply of daycare spaces is insufficient and often the quality is very low - the provinces will have to get their hands dirty in order to change that.

[mikedavid00]

Saturn, relax with the personal attacks there buddy, that's a fast track to the banned category.

--

If daycare is a must for people, and arguably it is for many... what's the best way of providing it?

I don't know much about the issue but handing out cash left and right is not the best way of doing it. I'm thinking more along the lines of forking some money over to the provinces and to employers to create enough daycare spaces and then using some sort of an income based approach to distribute the goods. Something along the lines of a refundable tax credit with a clawback for families with working parents - in other words, if mom and dad make $200K each, they don't need financial help and if mom works while dad sits at home watching sports, then they don't need support either. In other words, only parents who have to work to make ends meet should get support. On the other hand, the supply of daycare spaces is insufficient and often the quality is very low - the provinces will have to get their hands dirty in order to change that.

It's easiest just to put a couple of portables by the elementry schools and those will become little daycares.

It's best just to have universal daycare for all Canadians.

I'm just very, very, very confident it won't be run properly and everyones hands will want to dip into the cookie jar.

Also, (as I always say) the people using it HAVE TO PAY INTO IT or it wont work. Doing this kind of program would be a major expense. A massive, major, new boon doggle.

[Charles Anthony]

Also, just to clarify, all parents raise their children themselves. Childcare is a support, not a replacement, for parents. Parents who work are still their children's primary caregivers.

Also, just to clarify, I am on GeofFrey's team on this one.

Parents who send their children to daycare are NOT their children's primary caregiver.

In case you aren't aware there are 168 hours in a week.

Compelete the sentence.

In case you are not aware, there are 168 hours in a week and children in daycare spend the most important hours NOT with their parents.

If a child spends 40hrs/wk in daycare, that still leaves 128hrs to be spent with the parents. Even if you take out 8hr/day for sleep, this still leaves 72hrs with the parents.

Big deal.

Enough of this bull about the government employee. Or are you saying that kids shouldn't go to school because teachers are government employees? That's nonsense.

Yes, I would say that.

Funny: I was chatting with a buddy of mine about schooling and home-schooling. He said he is looking forward to when his youngest daughter goes to school because then they do not have to pay for daycare.

[rbacon]

No to National Daycare, pay for your own daycare......Taxes already consume more of the average Canadian Family budget than food housing, clothing and transportation combined.....Some 850,000 Canadian working poor families each month use foodbanks to stretch their paycheques, because of high taxes and you want to tax them more so you can have National Daycare.....Shame on you.....

[Melanie_]

Parents who send their children to daycare are NOT their children's primary caregiver.

We'll just have to disagree on that, Charles.

Some 850,000 Canadian working poor families each month use foodbanks to stretch their paycheques, because of high taxes and you want to tax them more so you can have National Daycare

Have you read my posts? It is the working poor that need child care the most - they can't afford to pay the costs of child care to start with, but need good care in order to work. They should be given a subsidy based on their income. It makes much more sense to direct tax money to the people who need it than to those who don't, which is what the Tory "Choices" in child care does now.

[Saturn]

Also, just to clarify, all parents raise their children themselves. Childcare is a support, not a replacement, for parents. Parents who work are still their children's primary caregivers.

Also, just to clarify, I am GeofFrey's team on this one.

Parents who send their children to daycare are NOT their children's primary caregiver.

And who is?

Enough of this bull about the government employee. Or are you saying that kids shouldn't go to school because teachers are government employees? That's nonsense.

Yes, I would say that.

Funny: I was chatting with a buddy of mine about schooling and home-schooling. He said he is looking forward to when his youngest daughter goes to school because then they do not have to pay for daycare.

I know someone with 4 kids whose goal in life is to get rid of them for a weekend here and a few days there, so that she can "breathe". It's too much to ask an adult to be stuck with pre-schoolers 24/7. People who take their kids to daycare may just be happier to be with their kids than those who can't get away from them for full 5 years.

And yes, too many people look at school as some form of daycare, not a place of learning, which only contributes to the fact that our children can't add 2 and 2 in grade 10.

[Saturn]

No to National Daycare, pay for your own daycare......Taxes already consume more of the average Canadian Family budget than food housing, clothing and transportation combined.....Some 850,000 Canadian working poor families each month use foodbanks to stretch their paycheques, because of high taxes and you want to tax them more so you can have National Daycare.....Shame on you.....

Are you for real? That's precisely the people who would benefit from daycare.

[White Doors]

No to National Daycare, pay for your own daycare......Taxes already consume more of the average Canadian Family budget than food housing, clothing and transportation combined.....Some 850,000 Canadian working poor families each month use foodbanks to stretch their paycheques, because of high taxes and you want to tax them more so you can have National Daycare.....Shame on you.....

Are you for real? That's precisely the people who would benefit from daycare.

are you fro real? That's precisely the people who would benefit the most from lower taxes.