How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[mikedavid00]

I'm not saying force them, there are some that just don't have the opportunity and they should at least get that. I'll bet a person living in squalor would take a job as a leasehand for around 20 bucks an hour to sweep and paint.

Actually I believe that natives are entitles to a special native welfare where they get like $900 a month and don't have to look for work. They just get the money. They also dont pay sales tax and get free university/college tuitions. THey aslo get first preference for gov't jobs.

I wonder if this is the case in the US.. after all, there are millions of natives in the US and Mexico.

[Saturn]

It all comes down to this: the provincial medical associations are monopolies that do not want us to have good health care unless we give them a lot more money. It is extortion, nothing else!

You are getting into conspirasy theories now. The mark of a true left winger. You are dreamy, wishing, and out of touch with reality.

Listen. I'm the only one here bringing reality into this. Healthcare is like insurance, if people are using the services that they don't pay into, then the service DOESN'T WORK. Over the years, the system has slowly crumbled because there are MORE PEOPLE USING IT THAN WE HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SUPPLY CARE. IT'S THAT SIMPLE. STOP OVER COMPLICATING IT.

We don't have enough resources because we don't have the money to expand the system. Why? Because people that are using it that HAVE NOT PAID INTO IT.

Healthcare insurance is made to be paid into your whole life, NOT 10 years, NOT 15 years, NOT from 35 years old with jobs here and there until they get old age welfare. It's meant to be paid into your whole life of paying taxes. The same is for the US.

When you sponsor in family members from other countries who have not paid into the system, then eventually over time you end up with waiting lists and insuficient care.

I agree that there are other problems, but it's not the MAIN problem that is causing our problems.

When's the last time you've seen a hospital get built? They don't get built because we can't afford it.

There is a hospital being built just 1 km from here. Your negativism is depressing. Canada is a wealthy nation and we can afford plenty of things. Including health-care. Immigrants provide plenty of benefits and your complaints are way over the top. It is anti-immigrant sentiments like yours that are costing our economy $15 billion annually (due to underutilizing the immigrants' skills). Now you can keep complaining about the immigrants but privatizing health-care isn't going to make them go away or fix the health-care problem. Paying 60% more money for 10% more health-care doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Huge health-care bills are a burden on the economy (plenty of evidence in the US) and since employers don't partilcularly enjoy paying $5K/employee for medical insurance it will only cause more Canadian jobs to move to China where health-care is far less costly. Now obviously nothing will change your mind about the evils of immigration but I don't think that you will convince anyone of those evils either. Of course you are free to keep on trying.

[mikedavid00]

Perhaps we need to give each person X ammount of free healthcare per year of citizenship.

Thank you. It's so refreshing to finally see some real world solutions.

Taxing Canadians more is just not a solution because we're already at our limit. We need to move to a plan B.

People need to understand that people are coming here on a mass scale - more per capita than anywhere else in the world. In the US you come via a workers permit and there is no chance in hell you are getting HMO healthcare. You must take out your own private insurance that your company will most likely supply for your family. This is why the HMO and private insurance both do not have waiting times. Only the poor in the US has an HMO plan.

Private medical coverage covers 69% of all Americans. Employers supply 60% of all health care in the US. There is NOT waiting times for procedures.

Their system only works because people who are using it are paying into it.

Immigration is here only because the Liberal Party of Canada found a solid voter base to keep them in power. They know this. Canada does not have this booming high life with jobs everywhere and palaces for homes. This is actually a poverty stricken country with non functioning healthcare.

We just have to deal with the fact that we can't afford more healthcare. We have to deal with the fact that immigration system wont be reformed.

We need solutions to solve our crisis and you are the only one that gave a good first step.

Remeber, 50,000 residing in Lebanon, not or never paying taxes here in Canada and are able to fly over for a triple bypass and clog our system. Multiply this over 20 years and eventually the system will crumble. That's all that's happening now.

Same with organ donations.

[mikedavid00]

Mikedavid:

Where do you get your facts ? Provide a link, PLEASE.

Which facts would you like? These ones?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf (page 26)

These ones?

"In Canada, every citizen has coverage, but access can still be a problem. Reports show that millions of Canadians do not have, or have trouble finding a doctor, and have to rely on emergency room treatments. [1] Complaints of long waiting lists for some services are also common. For example, in a survey of hospital administrators conducted in Canada, the United States, and three other countries, 21 percent of Canadian hospital administrators admitted that it would take over three weeks to do a biopsy for possible breast cancer on a 50 year old woman. Less than one percent of American administrators made this claim. according to the same survey, fifty percent of Canadian administrators versus none of their American counterparts stated that it would take over six months for a sixty-five year old to undergo a routine hip replacement surgery"

[Michael Hardner]

It's better to get stats on Canadian healthcare from a Canadian source, like CIHI.

But I was looking for some evidence of your contention that immigration is bankrupting the healthcare system.

How about that ?

[jdobbin]

These ones?

"In Canada, every citizen has coverage, but access can still be a problem. Reports show that millions of Canadians do not have, or have trouble finding a doctor, and have to rely on emergency room treatments. [1] Complaints of long waiting lists for some services are also common. For example, in a survey of hospital administrators conducted in Canada, the United States, and three other countries, 21 percent of Canadian hospital administrators admitted that it would take over three weeks to do a biopsy for possible breast cancer on a 50 year old woman. Less than one percent of American administrators made this claim. according to the same survey, fifty percent of Canadian administrators versus none of their American counterparts stated that it would take over six months for a sixty-five year old to undergo a routine hip replacement surgery"

The U.S. rations care by having tens of millions not being insured.

Six months for anyone in Canada to get hip replacement versus someone not getting that type of coverage in the U.S. ever.

Let's look at wait time lists for cancer in Manitoba.

http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waitlist/radiation/index.html

Less than a week for most cancers. That's for every citizen.

Let's look at cardiac surgery in Manitoba.

http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waitlist/surgical/heart.html

Less than four days for emergent and urgent. Twenty-six days for all cardiac surgery. Not out of line for what you might find in the U.S. except that includes every citizen in Manitoba.

[mikedavid00]

It's better to get stats on Canadian healthcare from a Canadian source, like CIHI.

But I was looking for some evidence of your contention that immigration is bankrupting the healthcare system.

How about that ?

Nobody knows what is wrong with our system and that's why we all can't agree on anything. What we can do is make a logical assumptions based on the current sitution. If there is a waiting list, there are obvsiouly too many people using the system that was once working. When we are at our limit where we can not be taxed further and are out of money to fund the system, then there are more people using it than have paid into it.

What we do know, is that we let more people into our country each year than anywhere else in the world per capita. We hand poeple a very, very expensive free service as soon as they get here when they haven't paid into it.

If they gov't knows, they aren't going to tell us. Supposedly they hid from us the real number of Canadians living abroad because it was rumored to be over a million.

Anyow back to your origional question this is the best that we may be able to do:

"Dillmann et al. (1993) examined the health status of 1,104 refugees who arrived in Calgary

between January 1989 and October 1990. This group included refugees from Central America

(30%), Southeast Asia (25%), Middle East (25%), Africa (10%) and Eastern Europe (10%).

Overall, 34% of the refugees required a referral to a health practitioner. Common health

problems included respiratory infections, impaired visual capacity, dental problems (extremely

common among children), ear infections, hearing problems, gynecological problems and

emergency hospitalizations. Dillmann et al. (1993) concluded that refugees need special care and

protection in a new country, particularly in their early stages of resettlement."

Other interesting note:

"A five-year Alberta study that included 351 cases of TB diagnosed in southern Alberta

between 1990 and 1994 indicated that immigrants accounted for 70.6% of these cases. The

majority of these immigrants (73.4%) were from Asian countries (e.g. China, Hong Kong,

Vietnam, Philippines and Indian sub-continent) (Cowie & Sharpe, 1998). In Toronto, public

health data indicate that immigrants account for 92% of TB cases (Gardam, pers. comm).

The five-year Alberta study reported that the mean latency period between immigration and

diagnosis was 11.2 years (standard deviation [sD] 13.9 years) and 50% of immigrants presented

within 7 years of arrival. The latency period varied according to the disease type: patients with

superficial lymph node disease presented after 7.6 years [sD 6.9] of arrival, those with

extra-pulmonary disease after 10.1 years.

Immigrants from the Philippines, Hong Kong and South Asia had latency periods of

seven, seven and eight years, respectively, compared to refugees from Somalia, Ethiopia, Sri

Lanka and Afghanistan who had latency periods of two, three, four and four years, respectively.

An analysis of TB data from Toronto revealed that the highest rates of TB occurred among

immigrants within five years of arrival in Canada (PHRED, 2000).

Canadian estimates have been based largely on

computer-modelling programs such as the one developed by Health Canada to assess the public

health risks for 47 communicable diseases. Using this program, it was estimated that one in

1,000 immigrants (0.1%) arrive annually with HIV, accounting for 37 transmissions each year

(Hurst, Dec. 2000; St. John, pers. comm., 2000).

There was some evidence that HIV/AIDS is increasing among immigrants to Ontario who

were born in HIV-endemic countries. In 1997 and 1998, 14% of cases in the provincial

surveillance system were attributed to immigrants from HIV-endemic countries, compared to

2.9% of cases from 1981 to 1995. At the same time, the proportion of AIDS cases attributed to

MSM declined from 86% in 1985 to 50% in 1998 (Remis & Whittingham, 1999).

It was also estimated that 46% of HIV infections among immigrants from the Caribbean and

30% of infections among immigrants from Sub-Saharan Africa were acquired in Canada. This

has important implications since policies and programs now in place in Canada could potentially

prevent these infections. Of the 281 HIV-infected mothers reported to the Ontario HIV Paediatric

Network, 41% were born to immigrant women from HIV-endemic countries (Remis &

Whittingham, 1999). Another study reported that 70% of the motherinfant HIV transmissions in

recent years were among immigrant women from sub-Saharan Africa and the Caribbean (Remis

et al., 1998).

Much attention has focused on the burden placed on health services attributed to immigrants

with HIV/AIDS. Although there was little evidence, the United States has maintained and

enforced an HIV-testing policy which excludes HIV-positive immigrants or immigrants with

AIDS. Furthermore, no research has examined whether the prevalence of AIDS in immigrant

populations increases or decreases in prevalence with duration of stay. It has been suggested that

certain sub-groups of immigrants (e.g. refugees, seasonal migrant workers and travellers who

seek sexual experimentation) are at higher risk for HIV. Canada is presently introducing

legislation for mandatory screening and exclusion of immigrants (except family class

immigrants) who test positive for HIV. (WHAT?????)

BINGO - FINALLY FOUND IT AFTER ALL THESE YEARS. HERE'S WHAT I'VE JUST SPENT THE LAST 1.5 HOURS LOOKING FOR:

For example, male immigrants in Manitoba had substantially higher rates of

physician contact for infectious and parasitic diseases, and female immigrants had higher rates

for pregnancy-related conditions. Immigrants also had higher rates of hospitalization for eye

surgery. The Kliewer and Kazanjian (2000) study was also unique in that it was able to examine

HSU among immigrant sub-groups (e.g. country of origin and refugee status). For example, in

the first year of landing, males born in the Middle East had higher hospitalization rates than the

general Manitoba male population, while those born in North Africa and South Asia had higher

rates between 7 and 12 months of landing. Immigrants with Refugee or Family visas had the

highest HSU rates while those with Economic-Business visas had the lowest rates.

**'HSU' means utilization of our medical system.

[jdobbin]

For example, male immigrants in Manitoba had substantially higher rates of

physician contact for infectious and parasitic diseases, and female immigrants had higher rates

for pregnancy-related conditions. Immigrants also had higher rates of hospitalization for eye

surgery. The Kliewer and Kazanjian (2000) study was also unique in that it was able to examine

HSU among immigrant sub-groups (e.g. country of origin and refugee status). For example, in

the first year of landing, males born in the Middle East had higher hospitalization rates than the

general Manitoba male population, while those born in North Africa and South Asia had higher

rates between 7 and 12 months of landing. Immigrants with Refugee or Family visas had the

highest HSU rates while those with Economic-Business visas had the lowest rates.

**'HSU' means utilization of our medical system.

I'm not surprised by refugee numbers. You're suggesting we roadblock them?

As far as the rest of the data, I have seen no indication that this accounts for the majority of Canadian healthcare spending at all.

[Michael Hardner]

I do have some problems with the stats you've produced, however for the time being I'd like to thank you for producing them. I will look at these, as it's definitely food for thought.

[White Doors]

That's economics from a book Saturn. In the real world, there is another dimension to monopoly pricing... keeping that price reasonable enough to prevent the government from forcing it's hand.

Microeconomics is done in the absence of irrational thought which is generally the will of the people. In the real world it doesn't turn out that way, at least not in the short term.

There are many dimensions to everything and in the real world people do whatever they believe is best for them and whatever they think they can get away with. In this case, the medical associations have positioned themselves well to get away with quite a bit. I just find it rediculous when people are so inconsistent on similar issues and will argue on different sides simply for ideological reasons.

haha

unreal. If you have a grad degree in Economics then it's high time you got out of school and experienced some reality. It is obvious you are up to your eyeballs in theory! Those damn medical associations running a conspiracy! I mean if only the Dr's WANTED to help us then the system would work! Holy cow! That's freaking awesome!

The internet is awesome! You are awesome!

[mikedavid00]

I'm not surprised by refugee numbers. You're suggesting we roadblock them?

As far as the rest of the data, I have seen no indication that this accounts for the majority of Canadian healthcare spending at all.

Well we have to allow refugees from some UN accord we are part of as long as most of the first world. However, we let in the second most per capita in the world. Most of the claims are bogus and coached via an immigration consultant.

The last true refugee's should have been during the Ugaslavia crisis. Under our rules, you can claim refugee status if you are fat or your husband beats you. Also if you are gay.

These are not refugees.

I tell my immigrant friends who's family members were not allowed into the country to just claim refugee status.

Refugee is the easiest, fastest, best way into Canada. To be honest, I wouldn't even bother with sponsorship or the point system.

You just need coaching on how to answer the questions and you should have new babies here in Canada in order to stay and help your case. It's an easy, easy way in.

There are no refugees in this world. We all know it. Ugislavia was the last crisis and everyone else is lying.

[mikedavid00]

I do have some problems with the stats you've produced, however for the time being I'd like to thank you for producing them. I will look at these, as it's definitely food for thought.

Well regardless, people are going to use the system that haven't paid into it and that's why over the years it's become unsistainable. When you come into Canada, part of your settling involves seing a doctor and having Canadian born children. When you come later in life (as many i personally know), then you just haven't paid into the system long enough to cover the costs of healthcare.

It's not that they are eating the system dry over night, it's over a long time that it will catch up to us and it's probably the root of the problem.

Canadians can't be taxed anymore, so somethings going to have to give.

(took 30 min to dig very deep because atleast you appreciate it... here's what I found)

"Federal and provincial government social programs can experience greater expense without corresponding tax revenue due to the low employment rate of immigrants (see employment statistics below)."

In 2001, the overall unemployment rate of immigrants was 37%. Combined with the overall participation rate of 70%, this means that only 44% of all working-age immigrants were working in 2001. This is significantly lower than the average employment rate in Canada of 72%. The net result is that the majority of landed immigrants are not working: 56% of working-age immigrants, plus children and retiree immigrants (who, while not expected to work, do consume welfare, medicare and public education resources)."

[jdobbin]

There are no refugees in this world. We all know it. Ugislavia was the last crisis and everyone else is lying.

Just off the top of my head, I'd head say Sudan and Yemen have refugees with legit claims.

I think you could make refugee claims for Zimbabwe as well.

If we can say those countries are at peace, we probably could have said the same for Jews prior to World War II.

[August1991]

Is this a thread about health-care or about immigration?

MikeDavid, you provided some evidence that refugees in Calgary require health services. Is that surprising? They're refugees. And in any case, native born Canadians also require health services. You'd have to show that immigrants use the health system disproportionately to native born Canadians. And that you haven't done.

Canada accepts about 40,000 refugees every year. With a population of over 30 million, I don't think it makes sense to blame refugees for our health care problems. In fact, blaming immigrants for problems of our own making deserves to be called another name.

For the first 20 years of life, a person is largely a draw on society. When a 20 year old immigrant arrives in Canada, our society saves a tremendous amount. On balance, Canadians already here gain from the large scale import of human capital that immigration represents. I agree however that we could reform and change the way we select immigrants.

As to health care, I think we must have State health insurance but private health delivery. I have no idea how we could promote such a system. I liked Harper's proposal of forcing the provinces to pay for out of province treatment is waiting lists are too long.

----

I find this thread reduces complex questions to simplistic solutions. It reminds me of the fascists in Europe in the early part of the past century. They too sought easy solutions to complex questions.

And would you please stop using large fonts. You don't have to yell. We can all read you loud and clear with ordinary font.

[jdobbin]

(took 30 min to dig very deep because atleast you appreciate it... here's what I found)

"Federal and provincial government social programs can experience greater expense without corresponding tax revenue due to the low employment rate of immigrants (see employment statistics below)."

In 2001, the overall unemployment rate of immigrants was 37%. Combined with the overall participation rate of 70%, this means that only 44% of all working-age immigrants were working in 2001. This is significantly lower than the average employment rate in Canada of 72%. The net result is that the majority of landed immigrants are not working: 56% of working-age immigrants, plus children and retiree immigrants (who, while not expected to work, do consume welfare, medicare and public education resources)."

It took me one minute to get more current numbers.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/051013/d051013b.htm

"New data from the Longitudinal Survey of Immigrants to Canada (LSIC) show that 80% of immigrants aged between 25 and 44 worked in at least one job during their first two years in Canada."

[guyser]

Is this a thread about health-care or about immigration?

MikeDavid, you provided some evidence that refugees in Calgary require health services. Is that surprising? They're refugees. And in any case, native born Canadians also require health services. You'd have to show that immigrants use the health system disproportionately to native born Canadians. And that you haven't done.

Canada accepts about 40,000 refugees every year. With a population of over 30 million, I don't think it makes sense to blame refugees for our health care problems. In fact, blaming immigrants for problems of our own making deserves to be called another name.

For the first 20 years of life, a person is largely a draw on society. When a 20 year old immigrant arrives in Canada, our society saves a tremendous amount. On balance, Canadians already here gain from the large scale import of human capital that immigration represents. I agree however that we could reform and change the way we select immigrants.

As to health care, I think we must have State health insurance but private health delivery. I have no idea how we could promote such a system. I liked Harper's proposal of forcing the provinces to pay for out of province treatment is waiting lists are too long.

----

I find this thread reduces complex questions to simplistic solutions. It reminds me of the fascists in Europe in the early part of the past century. They too sought easy solutions to complex questions.

And would you please stop using large fonts. You don't have to yell. We can all read you loud and clear with ordinary font.

Good post and I agree with much of what you say.

One major correction , in debating this yesterday I looked at immigration numbers. They all said about 240,000 , not 40,000.

[madmax]

If we can say those countries are at peace, we probably could have said the same for Jews prior to World War II.

If I remember my history correctly, that is exactly what Canada did do. We sent them back to Europe.

This is a thread on HEALTH CARE and someone has a fixation on immigrants.

It has been a good thread, regardless.

[Hydraboss]

It took me one minute to get more current numbers.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/051013/d051013b.htm

"New data from the Longitudinal Survey of Immigrants to Canada (LSIC) show that 80% of immigrants aged between 25 and 44 worked in at least one job during their first two years in Canada."

That link also stated that of those same immigrants, the 80% number was people who worked during their first two years. The respective employment rates of those immigrants was from 30% to 58%. So actually, MikeDavid's point is well supported by your link.

[Hydraboss]

This is a thread on health care reforms that we feel may be required. Immigration may affect this, so it is valid.

[guyser]

I'm not surprised by refugee numbers. You're suggesting we roadblock them?

As far as the rest of the data, I have seen no indication that this accounts for the majority of Canadian healthcare spending at all.

Well we have to allow refugees from some UN accord we are part of as long as most of the first world. However, we let in the second most per capita in the world. Most of the claims are bogus and coached via an immigration consultant.

The last true refugee's should have been during the Ugaslavia crisis. Under our rules, you can claim refugee status if you are fat or your husband beats you. Also if you are gay.

These are not refugees.

I tell my immigrant friends who's family members were not allowed into the country to just claim refugee status.

Refugee is the easiest, fastest, best way into Canada. To be honest, I wouldn't even bother with sponsorship or the point system.

You just need coaching on how to answer the questions and you should have new babies here in Canada in order to stay and help your case. It's an easy, easy way in.

There are no refugees in this world. We all know it. Ugislavia was the last crisis and everyone else is lying.

This is becoming no fun to continue to hash out things with you.

Okay ....lets start with this point.

The last true refugees are from YUGOSLAVIA ? And this is known how? I couldnt find anything that related to your point.

Would you like the sat phone number of a friend of mine working in Africa for OXFAM? I am sure he could shed some light on conditions there and ask him if he feels if the people he meets are not refugees (except for the fact they cannot get out) ?

Refugee status if you are fat or your husband beats you..?...or you are gay? Ridiculous, and really, read your posts before submitting. This sort of comment is insulting to many.

My sister in law had a hard time getting into this country and they were going to deport her. Her ex beat her and she wanted a better place for her babies (my nieces) to live. They thought she was arranging a marriage of convenience. Since my brother and her have been married for 17 years....I guess it isnt for convenience.

And since my nieces have been virtually sick free all their lives, and since my sister in law is now a high ranking official with U of Ottawa, all those taxes she has paid for healthcare prove you are right. No wait.....

And since Canada is one of a few countries that grants SSM (very good Canada) why are there no Rainbow marches to our borders for the repressed gay person? They are gay....the door would be open for them, just show us your gay card and we will shuttle you through.

Everyone is lying......there are no refugees.

I will make it easy for you on this one.

Go get a map of Africa. Take a dart and blindly throw it at the middle to top half of the African continent. Anyplace you land will be filled with refugees wanting to get out.

Sierra Leone, Cote d'Ivoire, Senegal, Sudan , Chad, shall I continue?

[jdobbin]

That link also stated that of those same immigrants, the 80% number was people who worked during their first two years. The respective employment rates of those immigrants was from 30% to 58%. So actually, MikeDavid's point is well supported by your link.

The same link also said that immigrants finding work had increased from the last stats report. And when the next Statscan report comes out, it is likely to show even more improvement given the employment climate.

Some interesting numbers though is that the majority of newcomers who didn't work are female. Does this mean they are raising families? I don't see stats on that. I know for my wife who came from Britain that her mother didn't work immediately either but eventually became a registered nurse.

I think you'd have to look at numbers for five years, ten years, fifteen and twenty.

Statistically though, I'd say that most immigrants are employed rather than unemployed. They contribute to the economy and deserve medical coverage as they pay taxes like anyone else.

[August1991]

One major correction , in debating this yesterday I looked at immigration numbers. They all said about 240,000 , not 40,000.

We accept about 240,000 immigrants annually of which about 40,000 are accepted on refugee grounds. (I may be wrong on exact numbers.)

[guyser]

One major correction , in debating this yesterday I looked at immigration numbers. They all said about 240,000 , not 40,000.

We accept about 240,000 immigrants annually of which about 40,000 are accepted on refugee grounds. (I may be wrong on exact numbers.)

Ouch.....Sorry about that. I went back and looked and dang, I should read better.

Lo and behold you posted "refugees"

My mistake.

[Hydraboss]

quote/

At 26 weeks after their arrival, 50% of all immigrants aged 25 to 44 were employed. This was 30 percentage points below the employment rate of about 80% among all individuals aged 25 to 44 in the Canadian population. This gap is not surprising given that immigrants had a limited amount of time to get established in the labour force and many settlement activities to deal with.

At 52 weeks after arrival, the employment rate among prime working-age immigrants was 58%. This narrowed the gap to 23 percentage points.

At 104 weeks, or two years after arrival, the employment rate among prime working-age immigrants was 63%, 18 percentage points below the national rate of 81%. /quote

jdobbin, from your link, it is clear that these numbers are not proving what you intended. Even at 104 weeks, only 63% of prime workers were working. What about their families? What about spouses and children and parents? These are huge costs to Canada's health care system. What about the 37% of prime workers who aren't working? Canada has enough Canadian citizens that are not paying taxes and therefore a draw on tightly streched health care dollars.

This is unfair to the taxpaying Canadians that must:

1) pay extra taxes to cover health care costs

2) wait in ever-lengthening lines for health care services

3) absorb all of the extra social system costs for these people

We most certainly should not be allowing immigration of people who are not able to pay sufficient taxes to contribute, for what their family will take out of the system, immediately. This is why I endorse New Zealand's immigration policy - work visa's only and any permanent residency applications are based on your ability to maintain employment (aka employer's intent of employment letter). At least this was the way it was years ago when I looked into moving there.

[jdobbin]

jdobbin, from your link, it is clear that these numbers are not proving what you intended. Even at 104 weeks, only 63% of prime workers were working. What about their families? What about spouses and children and parents? These are huge costs to Canada's health care system. What about the 37% of prime workers who aren't working? Canada has enough Canadian citizens that are not paying taxes and therefore a draw on tightly streched health care dollars.

This is unfair to the taxpaying Canadians that must:

1) pay extra taxes to cover health care costs

2) wait in ever-lengthening lines for health care services

3) absorb all of the extra social system costs for these people

We most certainly should not be allowing immigration of people who are not able to pay sufficient taxes to contribute, for what their family will take out of the system, immediately. This is why I endorse New Zealand's immigration policy - work visa's only and any permanent residency applications are based on your ability to maintain employment (aka employer's intent of employment letter). At least this was the way it was years ago when I looked into moving there.

I still don't see evidence of immigrants being a long term drain on Canada's resources. I have seen plenty of evidence that they have contributed to Canada's prosperity.

The link mentions that the majority of new immigrants not working are women. I'd like to know the reason. If they are raising families, are they no different than many other women?