How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[mikedavid00]

and since my sister in law is now a high ranking official with U of Ottawa, all those taxes she has paid for healthcare prove you are right. No wait.....

Ahhhh.. ok that's all i needed to know.

[mikedavid00]

Statistically though, I'd say that most immigrants are employed rather than unemployed.

Well there's what you think and the factual numbers.

Keep believing the 'my vision of Canada' nonsense from the Libearl leaders of Canada. Our services will continue to crumble

Then there was Volpe before the last election trying to grasp for votes "We need to increase immigration by 500,000 people a year".

Good one Volpe.. good one.

[mikedavid00]

One major correction , in debating this yesterday I looked at immigration numbers. They all said about 240,000 , not 40,000.

We accept about 240,000 immigrants annually of which about 40,000 are accepted on refugee grounds. (I may be wrong on exact numbers.)

Ouch.....Sorry about that. I went back and looked and dang, I should read better.

Lo and behold you posted "refugees"

My mistake.

Immigration and Refugee numbers are two different statistics. Combine the two for total amounts of forgeign nationals that are here each year. Estimate another 20,000 for illegals.

[mikedavid00]

This is unfair to the taxpaying Canadians that must:

1) pay extra taxes to cover health care costs

2) wait in ever-lengthening lines for health care services

3) absorb all of the extra social system costs for these people

We most certainly should not be allowing immigration of people who are not able to pay sufficient taxes to contribute, for what their family will take out of the system, immediately. This is why I endorse New Zealand's immigration policy - work visa's only and any permanent residency applications are based on your ability to maintain employment (aka employer's intent of employment letter). At least this was the way it was years ago when I looked into moving there.

THANK YOU!

It's so refreshing to see someone who enderstands basic concepts of gov't services.

What we are doing is simply unsustainable over the long term and it's beginning to reach it's head.

[jdobbin]

Well there's what you think and the factual numbers.

Keep believing the 'my vision of Canada' nonsense from the Libearl leaders of Canada. Our services will continue to crumble

Then there was Volpe before the last election trying to grasp for votes "We need to increase immigration by 500,000 people a year".

Good one Volpe.. good one.

Even your own numbers say that immigrants are working and paying taxes.

You still haven't shown that immigrants are responsible for waiting lists. You haven't said what they cost in social services. You haven't indicated when they are net contributers to the economic base.

Basically, you haven't made the case at all. All you have indicated is an anti-immigration stance and tried to justify it by saying they cost Canada in social services. Why doesn't Harper believe this? Does he have a "Liberal" vision? He will have been in power for a year quite soon. He has indicated no change to immigration.

As for Volpe, he wasn't elected leader.

[jdobbin]

Immigration and Refugee numbers are two different statistics. Combine the two for total amounts of forgeign nationals that are here each year. Estimate another 20,000 for illegals.

Citation for 20,000 illegals?

[mikedavid00]

Immigration and Refugee numbers are two different statistics. Combine the two for total amounts of forgeign nationals that are here each year. Estimate another 20,000 for illegals.

Citation for 20,000 illegals?

Hey now. I've spent a lot of time re-looking up information I already knew. There are estimed 500,000 illegals in Canada and 20,000 a year. Please don't make me go look up those numbers.

[jdobbin]

Hey now. I've spent a lot of time re-looking up information I already knew. There are estimed 500,000 illegals in Canada and 20,000 a year. Please don't make me go look up those numbers.

I simply don't believe the 20,000 people per year number.

There is probably less than half the illegal numbers.

[geoffrey]

At 26 weeks after their arrival, 50% of all immigrants aged 25 to 44 were employed. This was 30 percentage points below the employment rate of about 80% among all individuals aged 25 to 44 in the Canadian population. This gap is not surprising given that immigrants had a limited amount of time to get established in the labour force and many settlement activities to deal with.

Hold up my friend. What's the participation rate difference between the two? Your numbers are meaningless without that figure... maybe the participation rate is 100% with the immigrants... in which case they are significantly more employed than your average Canadian.

Many people just give up on working in Canada... barely even 1/2 of Newfies are even looking for jobs.

[mikedavid00]

Why doesn't Harper believe this? Does he have a "Liberal" vision? He will have been in power for a year quite soon. He has indicated no change to immigration.

Because Preston Manning under the reform party knew this and wanted to lessen immigration to 150,000 people a year. He was labeled a racist party for this.

Harper also knows what is happening, but when the number 1 election issue for immigrants is sponsoring over loved ones, you simply cannot threaten these votes. The ONLY way Harper will win a majority is if he catores to immigrants.

For instance, if he gave all immigrants $100 a month, he could have bought his way into a majority this time around. Any immigrant populous seat in Canada voted Liberal. They only got in through immigrant votes (exception are some Quebec seats). Go look it up.

But he can't let go of his principles and I know that he and his party do not take kindly to the current immigration policy but what are they to do? They don't want to jepordise their majority possibility. They also do not take kindly to Islam. Pandering to the unsubstantial jewish vote is not politically wise. He should have sided with Islam and pandered to those votes. He would have one my rididng. But he just can't fake 'eating the three eyed fish' (Mr. Burns - the Simpsons).

A majority for the CPC is simply not possible at this point in time unless there is a major shift from the immigrant vote.

Thus, you will see the CPC pandering to the immigrant vote as much as they can and hopefully they will get on board and we can finally have a majority gov't.

As for Volpe, he wasn't elected leader.

Let's all be thankfull for that.

[mikedavid00]

At 26 weeks after their arrival, 50% of all immigrants aged 25 to 44 were employed. This was 30 percentage points below the employment rate of about 80% among all individuals aged 25 to 44 in the Canadian population. This gap is not surprising given that immigrants had a limited amount of time to get established in the labour force and many settlement activities to deal with.

Hold up my friend. What's the participation rate difference between the two? Your numbers are meaningless without that figure... maybe the participation rate is 100% with the immigrants... in which case they are significantly more employed than your average Canadian.

Many people just give up on working in Canada... barely even 1/2 of Newfies are even looking for jobs.

The participation rate is 70%.

And yes, people don't realize just how unemployed/underemployed our nation is. (did I just say nation?)

In the US, you get a diploma, you get a white collar job. End of story.

In Canada, everyone has a degree or diploma and you get a low paying job.

I was looking at a job today that required detailed experience with 3-5 years and a degree for $40,000. I was lauging at the patheticness of our situation.

People can't find jobs becuase THERE ARE NONE.

[August1991]

This thread has morphed into a discussion about immigration. We've had many threads on immigration before. Here's a link to one along with some basic facts:

In general, we take in around 200,000 immigrants per year. Of these, about half (100,000) are admitted in the category of skilled workers, about a third (70,000) as family class and the rest (30,000) as refugees. Be cautious however. The 100,000 in the skilled worker categaory include dependants (children, spouse) so in fact, we only accept about 30,000 skilled workers.

In addition, Canada loses about 70,000 every year through emigration (primarily to the US). Statcan data

As a percentage of the population, we accepted more immigrants in the early 1900s than we do now. Australia accepts more net migrants than we do.

MikeDavid, you seem to blame all of Canada's ills on immigration. (Leafless blames all of them on Quebec.) The real world is a little more complex.

In the US, you get a diploma, you get a white collar job. End of story.

In Canada, everyone has a degree or diploma and you get a low paying job.

Do you really believe that?

[Argus]

Now keep your arrogant nose down because you can debate economics with me only when you get a grad degree in economics. Until then happy studies!

You have a grad degree in econ? Only people with grad degrees can debate you?

Yes, I happen to have a grad degree in econ. I will debate anyone who shows some respect for a reasonably educated opinion. This falls outside that category:

Almost everything you write falls outside that category.

[Argus]

I think he's overplaying the immigrant card, but at the same time, he has a point. People do make far more use of health care when older, and far less when younger. Generally speaking, people under 50 make FAR less use of the health care system than those over 50. Thus the taxes they pay towards health care are mostly "profit" to the system. Those over 50, as a group, are a net drag on the system as they consume far more resources than they pay for. Now, the average age of immigrants is, I understand, only a year or two under the average for Canadians - which would put it around 35. Now we can forget the contributions children don't make, but it's not fair to suggest these immigrants have contributed NOTHING for at least a dozen years when the average Canadian is already contributing tax dollars towards health care.

What kind of screwed-up, biased math is this? A child in Canada costs us close to half a million bucks from birth to graduation and that's before s/he can contribute anything to our society. Immigrants are grown people, over a third of them with university degrees, who even pay to have their applications processed.

The problem is that more recent immigrants don't contribute as much as previous immigrants do, because they're not as well-off as previous immigrants and have a harder time finding work. In addition, while their education was esssentially "free" to us, it was also, in many cases, suspect. Immigrants are much more likely than Canadians to not have a high school diploma, and many of their post secondary degrees are of little value here. They also have more kids, and those kids cost more to educate because they have to be run through ESL classes. Often the immigrants themselves have to be helped with ESL classes and other adjustments. And refugees, of course (who, for the most part, are really economic refugees) are a major drag on the system in all respects.

We haven't spent a penny on raising them and educating them. So why is a Canadian-born child, who already cost us half a million more entitled to services than a brand new immigrant, who hasn't cost us anything?

We're not speaking of "entitlements" but of costs to the system. More recent immigrants are an economic negative to the system due to lack of language, job and technical skills.

Of course many immigrants don't find a job right away. Do you think that Canadian graduates find a job the day they graduate?

We're talking about a situation which has markedly deteriorated over the past fifteen years. Immigrants used to come here with job skills which were in demand and find jobs reasonably easily. That's no longer the case. And almost one third of recent immigrants with university degrees who are working are working in jobs which require only low-skill levels.

And what's the last time you saw a Chinese or a Sri Lankan homeless bum drunk on the street? I've never seen one. All the homeless people I've seen were whites and natives.

And is that a statistically proven fact or mere observation? From my observation most of those in the poorer areas of central Canada, in public housing projects, are Black and Brown, and speak heavily accented English. Most of our street criminals, including drug dealers, pimps, and street gang members can be similiarly described.

Get over it! All your problems are not caused by the immigrants. In fact, seeing that only 3-4% of the population is native, the remaining 96-97% of us are immigrants.

Okay, first, I never said all our problems were caused by immigrants, and second, that "we're all immigrants" thing is the oldest, dumbest, most mindless and sophomoric cliche ever heard on the subject of immigration.

[Argus]

Lol.. are you denying the fact that we have emergency wiat room times and a waiting list and are in a crisis situation? Are you denying that we have a shortage of organs? Are you denying that a man's wife died from waiting 3 years on a liver transplant list. And her waiting got pushed back and back. The person before her on the list was waiting for only 3 months while the lady who was waiting for 3 years ended up dying.

Are you denying all this?

Are you denying that U.S. hospitals have waits in their emergency rooms. Are you denying that?

The public hospitals do have long wait times, the private hospitals generally do not.

[Argus]

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

For a man who makes repeated demands of others to "back up" what they say you have so far backed up nothing you've said. So let's see you back this one up.

Backed up nothing I have said?

Reading comprehension is needed then.

But anyhow, here you go, although I am loathe to agree with this woman, I must in this case

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...12/1258334.html

or this...

http://www.scics.gc.ca/cinfo04/830812004_e.html

I dont demand proof on everything, but there are particular posters here who throw out ridiculous charges facts and figures that demand challenging.

Neither of the cites you post has any meaningful data. They are political opinions of politicians and ideologues. Their opinions are of no more value than yours - probably less, actually, since at least you honestly hold your opinion.

What I'm asking for is economic and demographic data which support your statement that we are "in dire need of immigrants".

Let me enlighten you on a couple of things. First, the average age of immigrants is only about 2 years less than the average age of Canadians. So the suggestion made by many that an aging population needs immigrants is irrelevent. If the immigrants we took in were very young, perhaps - but they're not. So immigration is not going to be the solution to an aging population.

Second, demographic data shows that even if Canada cut back immigration to only 100k per year (currently it is about 230k) our population would continue to grow. If we halted ALL immigration entirely, then our population would ever so slowly begin to decline. How slowly? In thirty years our population would be down by about 250k. Big deal.

On top of demographics, economic data suggests immigration costs exceed their economic byproducts. That doesn't include the costs in terms of cultural and societal problems in dealing with masses of people of different cultures, languages and sensibilities, of course.

That does not sound like dire need to me.

[jdobbin]

The public hospitals do have long wait times, the private hospitals generally do not.

If they are totally private, yes. If they receive any federal funding which the majority do, they have as crowded emergency rooms as you will find anywhere in Canada.

Most Americans are covered by some HMO plan as well and that often involves having to go to the doctor or hospital that the HMO tells you to go to.

If you have cash, you can bypass the entire system.

[Argus]

For the first 20 years of life, a person is largely a draw on society. When a 20 year old immigrant arrives in Canada, our society saves a tremendous amount.

Even if that 20 year old arrives without any job skills and infected with HIV?

Canada lets in very, very few 20 year olds, aside from refugees.

Third worlders need to get educated, establish themselves, and make a lot of money (by their standards) before they can consider the expenses of applying for citizenship elsewhere, going through the process, then uprooting their family and flying here.

I don't know where you live, August, but if you wander through a public housing project in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal you're going to hear very little English or French.

[Argus]

It took me one minute to get more current numbers.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/051013/d051013b.htm

"New data from the Longitudinal Survey of Immigrants to Canada (LSIC) show that 80% of immigrants aged between 25 and 44 worked in at least one job during their first two years in Canada."

Jdobbin, consider the wording used, then consider the source. The government is always going to try and put the best light on whatever it does. The wording chosen only proves that 80% of immigrants worked for at least one day over the last two years. It says nothing about what the percentage is working at any given time, or whether the work is of any substantial use. Note the following from the cite: At 104 weeks, or two years after arrival, the employment rate among prime working-age immigrants was 63%, 18 percentage points below the national rate of 81%.

Also this:

The situation was somewhat better among principal applicants in the skilled worker category who were aged 25 to 44. These individuals are selected based on a number of criteria including their education, language ability and employment skills. Immigrants in this category are deemed to be more likely to succeed in the labour market and contribute to the Canadian economy.

Among this group, the vast majority, 90% or about 45,000, found employment during their first two years in Canada. Of those who did, just under half (48%) found a job in their intended occupation.

So by your own cite, even among the most highly skilled immigrants selected for their language and employment skills, the unemployment rate was 10%. And only half found the work in the area of their specialization. In other words, the other half were engineers driving cabs and waiting on tables - and thus not contributing economically to the extent their taxes outweighed their demands on the system.

[Drea]

People can't find jobs becuase THERE ARE NONE.

Please please please come out to BC. We can't find enough employees. If you're breathing your hired! Every single one of my clients is having a really tough time finding breathers.

So get out here to Lotus Land -- not only is the weather good, so's the pay!

[jdobbin]

Jdobbin, consider the wording used, then consider the source. The government is always going to try and put the best light on whatever it does. The wording chosen only proves that 80% of immigrants worked for at least one day over the last two years. It says nothing about what the percentage is working at any given time, or whether the work is of any substantial use. Note the following from the cite: At 104 weeks, or two years after arrival, the employment rate among prime working-age immigrants was 63%, 18 percentage points below the national rate of 81%.

So by your own cite, even among the most highly skilled immigrants selected for their language and employment skills, the unemployment rate was 10%. And only half found the work in the area of their specialization. In other words, the other half were engineers driving cabs and waiting on tables - and thus not contributing economically to the extent their taxes outweighed their demands on the system.

I also take into account that this report deals with numbers from 2001-2002, a period where there was considerable fall-out from September 11 and SARs.

In many provinces, the government is looking to break the logjam that prevents qualified foreign doctors from getting internships and residencies. Likewise, there is a problem getting engineering and other professional qualifications either recognized or finding placements for within the association frameworks.

This argument that immigrants account for the the largest share of costs within Canada's health system just doesn't seem to jibe.

[jdobbin]

I don't know where you live, August, but if you wander through a public housing project in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal you're going to hear very little English or French.

Are they refugees or immigrants? If they are immigrants, they are required to speak English or French. They also require to have a doctor's examination.

If an immigrant sponsors a relative in, they have to pay the government to do so. They are also on the hook for three to ten years for their financial needs.

[mikedavid00]

People can't find jobs becuase THERE ARE NONE.

Please please please come out to BC. We can't find enough employees. If you're breathing your hired! Every single one of my clients is having a really tough time finding breathers.

So get out here to Lotus Land -- not only is the weather good, so's the pay!

Really? Wow I never knew..

So what job shortages are there in BC that can't be filled? I guess If I go to workopolis there will be a lots of entry level white collar positions that pay well right?

What sectors are doing well in BC that you simply can't find enough people to work? Telemarkting, Tim Hortons, a cart boy at the grocery store?

[Drea]

Tad pessimistic are you?

Every sector -- from roofers to managers to nurses to shit shovellers and chicken catchers. We need people!

What do you want? Are you educated?

My bro moved here one month ago. He is now the head of maintenance at a mall. $40 grand a year to start. He was a logger and never did mall maintenance in his life. But they recognized a hardworker and rewarded him for it.

They are looking for more maintenance personel. $14/hr to start.

Every car dealer in town is looking for sales reps.

Every roofer in town is looking for labourers.

And yes, every Timmy's in town is looking for coffee slingers. (Because those who used to sling coffee have moved on to better jobs.)

I kick your ass if you are on welfare. There is no excuse not to work.

[mikedavid00]

Immigrants used to come here with job skills which were in demand and find jobs reasonably easily. That's no longer the case. And almost one third of recent immigrants with university degrees who are working are working in jobs which require only low-skill levels.

Anther thing also to consider is that Canada is now 75% service industry oriented (aka low paying jobs). We don't have the backroom white collar/high paying jobs anymore to support a fat lifestyle like we used to.

The reason why these immigrants aren't getting jobs is not soley based on the fact that their credentials aren't recognized, it's because we simply don't have the amount of jobs they are looking for. The jobs DO exist, but not in the numbers to hand out a nice job to hundreds of thousands that come here each year. Thus, we are letting in people who can't support a home and family and thus 52% of all immigrants after 5 years of landing are living in poverty.

When there is a real shortage of jobs (not a hyped or imagined one), then employers will ask for basic skills and allow you to learn on the job. During the tech bubble, many, many immigrants were coming from China and India into Ottawa and getting jobs at Nortel. Many copanies were doing 'phone interviews' and you basically got promised the job before you got in the province. That's because there was a real shortage of employees.

This is a real shortage of work.

When employers are positng 'entery level' positions demanding 3 years experience, a degree, and little pay, there is NO job shortage. Instead, 80 Candidates goign for one job (happened in my case) and willing to work for $28,000 a year just to be given the 'chance' to get experience. This is what's happening now and this is not a postive for our country in any way, shapre, or form.

It's just supply and demand. We have more people coming here than there are good jobs to go around so they have to take what they call 'survival jobs'. Becaue after all, they are 'entitled' to white collar jobs right out of the airport just because they have a 'degree' and are financially more elite than their counterparts back home who are starving and illiterate. (tongue in cheek).