When Dion whips Harper in the next election.....

[Saturn]

Of course it is highly desirable to reach out to everyone but do you have any suggestions on how to reach out to Albertans without having your hand bit off?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking geoffrey, he's an Albertan and I'm not. In terms of policies, I have no idea what would please Albertans and Torontonians at the same time. I would, however, as a start, take Howard Dean's advice and not concede any province or riding. The Liberals should certainly campaign hard in Alberta and ask Albertans for their vote. They may or may not get it, but I agree that it's a sign of respect to ask. If they don't even bother to put forth an effort to campaign in Alberta, it's no wonder they aren't going to vote Liberal. I imagine that doing otherwise would only make Albertans feel forgotten, like their vote doesn't matter....am I right?

Of course you are right. But IMO there is nothing the Liberals can do to change the way Albertans feel. The Liberals have put a lot of effort to reach out to the west. That's why landslide Annie was the # 2 person in Martin's cabinet and a top cabinet minister in all of Chretien's cabinets. That's why when the oil industry asked Martin to get the federal government out of the oil business, he sold our stake in PetroCanada. Alberta asked that Kyoto gets put on the backburner - that's what the liberals did. That's why Martin gave billions to the beef industry in Alberta and why he and every other federal and provincial politician were eating mad cow beef in front of the cameras. Did Albertans show any sign of appreciation for any of these things? Not to my knowledge, quite the contrary - they want to separate more than ever and nothing would make them happier than to see the "eastern basterds freezing in the dark". No matter how much effort the liberals (or the NDP) put into campaigning in Alberta they will never get any recognition for it - they never have, they never will. IMO, the Liberals couldn't have gotten any seats in Alberta even if they had elected Ralph Klein to lead them.

[mikedavid00]

Great point! Using racist remarks/analysis to support your point is exacly why your views are not respected in this part of the country.

There was nothing racist in his factual statement. Voting blacks in Toronto are not born Canadians whose heritage is from slavory, they are immigrants from Samolia, Haiti, and of course Jamaica. They have the same immigrant concerns as anyone else from India or Pakistan: getting more of their loved ones over. This is a proven fact. Immigrants will vote for the party that will serve these concerns. Look at almost all the ridings the Liberals won and you will find that they are really just a party backed by visible minorities.

It's nothing against visible minorities, it's just just a factual statement about who voted for Liberal in the last election.

Yes, Kennedy or Rae could have got back the 'white Canadian' sway voter outside the city centers, but that would ONLY happen if people had a reason to vote against Conservative which they do not.

I predict that Conservatives will gain almost no seats, and Liberals will pick some up in Quebec. Not 10 seats though.

However keep in mind that Harper has worked extremely hard to gain the Chinese vote in Canada so things might change in some of the Ontario/BC ridings.

Unless the immigrants gravitate towards the CPC party, they will never have a majority. That is proveable if you look at provincial ridings. Pick any riding in BC for instance that has 30% visible minorities, and you will see that they voted Liberal. Pick any riding outside these areas and you will see that the voted CPC the majority of the time.

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/candidatesri...s/bc/index.html

You guys are making this more complicated than it is.

[mikedavid00]

There are no large areas with 30% visible minorities in Canada.

Lol!!!

Where on earth do you live??? Hehehehe..

Go do your research.

[watching&waiting]

Try Scarborough. I do not live there but back when I attended Centennial College there, I would have to say that things on the streets looked like I was the minority there. I am sure they have not gotten better since then.

[White Doors]

Of course it is highly desirable to reach out to everyone but do you have any suggestions on how to reach out to Albertans without having your hand bit off?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking geoffrey, he's an Albertan and I'm not. In terms of policies, I have no idea what would please Albertans and Torontonians at the same time. I would, however, as a start, take Howard Dean's advice and not concede any province or riding. The Liberals should certainly campaign hard in Alberta and ask Albertans for their vote. They may or may not get it, but I agree that it's a sign of respect to ask. If they don't even bother to put forth an effort to campaign in Alberta, it's no wonder they aren't going to vote Liberal. I imagine that doing otherwise would only make Albertans feel forgotten, like their vote doesn't matter....am I right?

Of course you are right. But IMO there is nothing the Liberals can do to change the way Albertans feel. The Liberals have put a lot of effort to reach out to the west. That's why landslide Annie was the # 2 person in Martin's cabinet and a top cabinet minister in all of Chretien's cabinets. That's why when the oil industry asked Martin to get the federal government out of the oil business, he sold our stake in PetroCanada. Alberta asked that Kyoto gets put on the backburner - that's what the liberals did. That's why Martin gave billions to the beef industry in Alberta and why he and every other federal and provincial politician were eating mad cow beef in front of the cameras. Did Albertans show any sign of appreciation for any of these things? Not to my knowledge, quite the contrary - they want to separate more than ever and nothing would make them happier than to see the "eastern basterds freezing in the dark". No matter how much effort the liberals (or the NDP) put into campaigning in Alberta they will never get any recognition for it - they never have, they never will. IMO, the Liberals couldn't have gotten any seats in Alberta even if they had elected Ralph Klein to lead them.

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

[gc1765]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

Not true. Alberta produces more greenhouse gases than Ontario (despite it's much smaller population). This is largely due to the oil patch.

[MightyAC]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

Unless it has changed very recently the oil patch still receives more than a billion dollars in government subsidies despite the tremendous profits being achieved.

[mikedavid00]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

Not true. Alberta produces more greenhouse gases than Ontario (despite it's much smaller population). This is largely due to the oil patch.

In the 1980's it was global cooling, now it's global warming.

I feel a reduction in greenhouse gasses can happen by 2050. I find that to be a reasonable timeline.

We don't account for the worlds emmisions of gasses so we shouldn't concern ourselves with this. When old equipment gets replaced, maybe we can make it more enironmentally friendly. Untill then, let Europe spend trillions on this.

[Saturn]

There are no large areas with 30% visible minorities in Canada.

Lol!!!

Where on earth do you live??? Hehehehe..

Go do your research.

Go check your head. There are far more white immigrants in this country than visible minorities. Immigrants are overall better educated than the Canadian born population and our economy needs them. Immigration provides a steady inflow of grown educated people, who didn't cost us a penny to raise and educate. Without them our population and our economy will be shrinking substantially. The fact that you are picking on immigrants and on non-white immigrants in particular shows that you are a racist xenophobe and gives your argument no substance whatsoever.

[Saturn]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

LOL!!! And the Europeans emit less GHGs because they use diesel, which doesn't produce GHGs. LOL! Anti-environmentalists just shine with their brilliance.

[normanchateau]

The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine.

Well they are a left leaning center party. Center at best.

It depends on your reference point. They're not left-leaning or even centrist by contemporary Canadian standards.

[scribblet]

I'm not sure how many people, including Liberals have underestimated how far left Dion is. I believe he would like to get rid of any liberals who might tend to be socially conservative on some issues e.g. SSM and doesn't tolerate different opinions.

He has said that the upcoming vote on SSM will be a whipped vote, which means some of his MPs have to decide whether or not to vote their concience or be 'whipped' into submission. If they do vote for the motion will he kick them out of the party I wonder?

[jdobbin]

I'm not sure how many people, including Liberals have underestimated how far left Dion is. I believe he would like to get rid of any liberals who might tend to be socially conservative on some issues e.g. SSM and doesn't tolerate different opinions.

He has said that the upcoming vote on SSM will be a whipped vote, which means some of his MPs have to decide whether or not to vote their concience or be 'whipped' into submission. If they do vote for the motion will he kick them out of the party I wonder?

Are the Conservatives going to make it a whipped vote?

[Argus]

GH, and the Liberal's aren't partisan Liberal's. I haven't heard anything coming from their camp trying to reach out to Western Canadian's voters by giving their interests a place at the table.

Western Canadian voters will never be satisfied - especially Albertans. Even if Dion crawls on the floor, kisses their feet and gives them everything they claim they want, they will still hate the Eastern bastards. Hopefully Dion is smart enough to know that and he won't try to waste his time with westerners (like that fool Martin did. Or Mulroney). See, westerners have nothing to offer and hopefully Dion will concentrate his effors where it matters - Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces. If he does, Harper will be gone in no time.

Why do you hate Westerners? And if you hate Westerners do you hate Quebecers, too? Do you hate all Canada except that area around Toronto?

[Argus]

The GTA has twice the population of Alberta.

Ah, no, nowhere near twice. On the other hand, Alberta has many times as many Canadians as the GTA - more than half of whom are foreign born.

To say that the tories have seats in Toronto is like saying that the NDP have seats in Alberta cause they have some in BC.

You never took geography in school, did you?

[scribblet]

Any large area's with at least 30% visible minorities vote liberal. The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine. The Reform party of Canadad that supported immigration only when needed and a two tier helth care system was probably the first and last modern right wing party in Canada.

Toronto is by far more than 30% visible minority, in fact, City of Toronto website, says "43% of Toronto's population (1,051,125 people) reported themselves as being part of a visible minority."

So if we factor in other "ethnics" which would include for instance Portuguese, Italian, Greek or Polish people, then the percentage would be around 70%. In otherwords anyone not Anglo, French or Aboriginal.

I wouldn't consider the CPC centre left, but they have definity under Harper, moved towards the centre, in fact they are more like Liberal lite now. The few social conservatives are not too happy with the leftward move, but have no options really unless they go to the Christian Heritage party. Economic issue are far more important to Harper than any 'so-con' issues, thats for sure.

To Jdobbin: it is my understanding the CPC will not make it a whipped vote, but if the other parties are (NDP are too) I'm not sure what might happen. It is not a money issues so not a confidence matter.

[Argus]

Dion is a leader that's just not going to win anything in the west, and his selection appears to be a sign that the Liberals don't even intend to try. We're "fly over territory" again, and people aren't going to be happy about it.

As someone pointed out earlier, you would rather drink poison than vote for any party other than the Conservatives. Martin put so much effort in appeasing Alberta that he just broke his neck banging his head against the "western alienation" wall.

Can you give us any citations, any list of policy initiatives, any evidence at all that Martin tried so hard to appeal to the West?

Or like almost everything else you post, is this just the figment of your odd imagination?

[Argus]

I dont know why you have to pander these things.

Any large area's with at least 30% visible minorities vote liberal. The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine. The Reform party of Canadad that supported immigration only when needed and a two tier helth care system was probably the first and last modern right wing party in Canada.

There are no large areas with 30% visible minorities in Canada.

There are many, especially in and around Toronto - in fact, Toronto itself has a higher percentage. So do many areas of BC.

But you don't appear to know very much about this country. Nor about debating without looking like a fool.

[Argus]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

Not true. Alberta produces more greenhouse gases than Ontario (despite it's much smaller population). This is largely due to the oil patch.

I find this rather hard to believe. Not saying it's wrong but I'd like to see evidence.

[Argus]

There are no large areas with 30% visible minorities in Canada.

Lol!!!

Where on earth do you live??? Hehehehe..

Go do your research.

Go check your head. There are far more white immigrants in this country than visible minorities.

Wrong.

Immigrants are overall better educated than the Canadian born population

Wrong.

and our economy needs them.

Wrong.

Immigration provides a steady inflow of grown educated people, who didn't cost us a penny to raise and educate.

Immigration provides a steady stream of illiterates with no job skills too. And they cost us plenty.

Without them our population and our economy will be shrinking substantially.

Wrong also. Google demographics sometime.

The fact that you are picking on immigrants and on non-white immigrants in particular shows that you are a racist xenophobe and gives your argument no substance whatsoever.

Reported to moderator.

[Argus]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

LOL!!! And the Europeans emit less GHGs because they use diesel, which doesn't produce GHGs. LOL! Anti-environmentalists just shine with their brilliance.

How is this answer related to the statement of the previous poster?

[mikedavid00]

It depends on your reference point. They're not left-leaning or even centrist by contemporary Canadian standards.

True...

[Argus]

That's why the "only national party in Canada" doesn't have a single vote in urban Ontario, Montreal or Vancouver.

Actually, that's a good point. Why is it that no seats in Alberta is not a national party, but no seats in Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal is? There's almost as many people in the GTA as Alberta, so what makes Alberta a "region" but not Toronto? (or Vancouver & Montreal)

A better point is why do people keep talking about "national parties" without ever mentioning that there are vast areas of this country where the NDP have never and will never elect anything, or even come close?

[kimmy]

The auto industry in Ontario produces more GHG's than the oil patch. Yet who get's the government subsidies? A head scratcher ain't it?

LOL!!! And the Europeans emit less GHGs because they use diesel, which doesn't produce GHGs. LOL! Anti-environmentalists just shine with their brilliance.

You might want to recheck your information there, because that tidbit demonstrates your own, uh, "brilliance."

As someone pointed out earlier, you would rather drink poison than vote for any party other than the Conservatives. Martin put so much effort in appeasing Alberta that he just broke his neck banging his head against the "western alienation" wall. Dion is smart enough to realize that no matter what he does, he can never expect any kind of positive return on effort in Alberta. Either way you are not going to be happy, so it's your own fault that you are so rigid in your opinions that you've pulled yourself out of the game altogether.

hmm? What was all this "effort" that Paul Martin put into appeasing Alberta?

If he "almost broke his neck" addressing western alienation, it must have been by slipping on some cow-shit at a ranch photo-op, because it wasn't from hard work or daring policy. Aside from saying "I want to address western alienation," and showing up at a ranch wearing denim with a bunch of cameramen, what can you actually point to as an example of this "appeasement" of Alberta?

Of course it is highly desirable to reach out to everyone but do you have any suggestions on how to reach out to Albertans without having your hand bit off?

How about

* real action on parliamentary reform, senate reform, and transparency and accountability in government.

* backing off on centralist, interventionist rhetoric and policies. Rediscover respect for provincial jurisdiction.

* be honest and fair. For instance, if you're going to say "greenhouse gas emissions are too important, and we have to take action even if it hurts us economically" ...then don't start off your implementation talk by promising carte-blance exemption for Ontario auto-manufacturers.

* don't start fake conflicts with Alberta for the sake of scoring political points back in central Canada, as Stephane Dion did a few years ago with his open letter to Ralph Klein.

-k

[Argus]

Canadian Metropolitan Populations

I don't want to get into my specific personal experiences with people across this country, but bar none the ones who think they are getting screwed the most and complain about it the loudest and most often are Albertans.

What, more than Quebecers? Including those millions who want nothing to do with this country?

Next time your Cattle industry goes down the tubes, you can keep your mad cow beef. I have never heard anyone say thanks for accepting tons of it in Toronto, and Southern Ontario.

The problem we had with mad cow disease is largely due to lax federal standards, inspection and laws.

A year before we ate the BSE Crisis beef, eastern Canada helped keep it alive during the last drought. Sending thousands of bales of hay out west to help farmers in need.

http://www.tdc.ca/hay.htm

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-70-1407-9044/...gedies/drought/

So the next time you want to get on your soapbox and cry about how the rest of Canada doesn't care about Alberta why not try this first.

You want Albertans to be on their knees in gratitude because of minimal aid after a disaster largely caused by federal incompetence? Every part of this country has gotten aid due to emergency situations. Think of all the money that continues to go to pay off fishermen on both coasts after the feds mismanaged the fishery industry.

Do you think money is what makes people love their country? If so, why would you think Albertans, who pay much more than they get back, should be so grateful?