Re-newal of the Liberal Party

[gc1765]

Didn't they promise more before....and delivered what? So as far as their track records for "action"....you only see action prior to election time.

But by not saying anything about it suggests what? That nobody wants to take that bold step to make it a policy...because they know there's never going to be any change in that section? That it's a foregone conclusion...and in a sense, acceptance of the truth...that their party is prone to corruptions?

In other words it seems to say: "Corruptions and the Liberal Party come as a package. Here's what we are, the way it is, and ....take it or leave it."

I guess they figured they do not have to change their spots, thinking people would vote Liberals anyway just to get rid of Harper. Why do they have to make any more compromises?

Because it goes without saying. I don't rememeber Harper specifically saying that, if elected, he would not eat babies. That does not mean I believe that Harper is going to eat babies. Even if Dion does not specifically say he won't steal money, does not mean I believe he is going to steal money. But hey, if you want to judge politicians on their words alone, and not on their actions, you can continue believing that Dion is a thief and that Harper eats babies.

[MightyAC]

It seems to me that the renewal of the Liberal party is going quite well. Many, myself included, thought that it would take years before the Liberals had any chance whatsoever of winning an election. Then in one short year they are back in the game. Not too shabby.

This thread started on the topic of accountability but despite the scandal of the decade that is no longer an issue. I guess Liberal supporters can thank Steve-O for dropping the ball so badly on that topic. Emerson, Fortier, Income Trusts, Garth, forced votes, gag orders, Quebec a nation...it's been a rough year for the CPC faithful.

[Saturn]

It seems to me that the renewal of the Liberal party is going quite well. Many, myself included, thought that it would take years before the Liberals had any chance whatsoever of winning an election. Then in one short year they are back in the game. Not too shabby.

This thread started on the topic of accountability but despite the scandal of the decade that is no longer an issue. I guess Liberal supporters can thank Steve-O for dropping the ball so badly on that topic. Emerson, Fortier, Income Trusts, Garth, forced votes, gag orders, Quebec a nation...it's been a rough year for the CPC faithful.

Add to that raising income taxes, Rona, gaffes on the international stage and giving multi-billion dollar military contracts to conservative insiders...I guess he can't lose much time stuffing his friends' pockets cause he's going to be out the door in a few months.

[betsy]

Because it goes without saying. I don't rememeber Harper specifically saying that, if elected, he would not eat babies. That does not mean I believe that Harper is going to eat babies. Even if Dion does not specifically say he won't steal money, does not mean I believe he is going to steal money. But hey, if you want to judge politicians on their words alone, and not on their actions, you can continue believing that Dion is a thief and that Harper eats babies.

Harper has no need to say he promise not to eat babies anymore! He never did eat babies!

But the Liberals were caught with their hands in the cookie jar...several times!

With all their loud noises right after the election about re-newing the party and to clean it up from top to bottom....then suddenly total clam-up about the whole thing...without any policy at all it seems to directly address that very issue (that incidentally caused them to lose)...is indeed worrisome!

"Worrisome," exact word used by Layton today on MDuffy Live, wondering about the very same thing lacking from the candidates' speeches!

No I don't judge politicians by their words alone. But we know politicians make a lot of promises, and a lot of promises are broken. But at least, some have been kept!

But if there is no promise made at all...then there is nothing to expect! Nada! Zip.

[gc1765]

Harper has no need to say he promise not to eat babies anymore! He never did eat babies!

Exactly. And Dion never did steal money. Unless of course you have some evidence you'd like to bring forth? Don't hold back, if he's guilty, I'd like him to be prosecuted as much as anyone. If not, then don't accuse him of things he didn't do. We both know that the people who had their hands in the cookie jar are no longer part of the Liberal party. Why do you blame Dion for the mistakes of others who are now history?

With all their loud noises right after the election about re-newing the party and to clean it up from top to bottom....then suddenly total clam-up about the whole thing...without any policy at all it seems to directly address that very issue (that incidentally caused them to lose)...is indeed worrisome!

"Worrisome," exact word used by Layton today on MDuffy Live, wondering about the very same thing lacking from the candidates' speeches!

What, in your opinion, should Dion have said that would satisfy you? What sort of policy are you looking for?

But if there is no promise made at all...then there is nothing to expect! Nada! Zip.

Harper never promised not to eat babies, I guess I can't expect him not to eat babies.

[betsy]

Exactly. And Dion never did steal money.

But there's the question of mis-appropriated funds for the environment. To the tune of $400 million dollars.

We both know that the people who had their hands in the cookie jar are no longer part of the Liberal party.

We BOTH know? That's news to me. I know no such thing!

The only thing I assume, the Auditor general is still doing her clean-sweeping....still turning and looking under rocks. Of course, there must be a lot of scurrying going on, as soon as they get a whiff of her heading towards their direction.

What, in your opinion, should Dion have said that would satisfy you? What sort of policy are you looking for?

Can't you at least guess?

Harper never promised not to eat babies, I guess I can't expect him not to eat babies.

That doesn't sound right.

Harper was never known, nor even suspected of having eaten babies, therefore you wouldn't be expecting him to eat babies.

Whereas the Liberal Party is neck-deep in corruptions...and discoveries are still being made! The last being that of the Environmental Ministry of Dion. There's the question of $400 million dollars in mis-appropriated funds!

So, we've ended back right where we started.... full circle, gc....just as I feared. This merry-go-round makes me dizzy. Bye.

[gc1765]

Exactly. And Dion never did steal money.

But there's the question of mis-appropriated funds for the environment. To the tune of $400 million dollars.

Show me proof that Dion was involved in misappropriation of $400 million. Do you have a link?

We both know that the people who had their hands in the cookie jar are no longer part of the Liberal party.

We BOTH know? That's news to me. I know no such thing!

The only thing I assume, the Auditor general is still doing her clean-sweeping....still turning and looking under rocks. Of course, there must be a lot of scurrying going on, as soon as they get a whiff of her heading towards their direction.

Chretien and Gagliano were the ones named by Gomery. If you didn't know that they are no longer MPs, I'll tell you now that they are not. Now we both know. As for Dion and the rest of the Government:

On the evidence there is no basis for attributing blame or responsibility

to any other Minister of the Chrétien Cabinet, since they, like all members

of Parliament, were not informed of the initiatives being authorized

by Mr. Pelletier and their funding from the Unity Reserve. Mr. Martin,

whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision

of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers

in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness

or misconduct.

Link

Perhaps you have more evidence than what was presented during the Gomery inquiry? If you do, please speak up.

What, in your opinion, should Dion have said that would satisfy you? What sort of policy are you looking for?

Can't you at least guess?

If you can't have an intelligent debate, don't waste my time.

Harper never promised not to eat babies, I guess I can't expect him not to eat babies.

That doesn't sound right.

Harper was never known, nor even suspected of having eaten babies, therefore you wouldn't be expecting him to eat babies.

Whereas the Liberal Party is neck-deep in corruptions...and discoveries are still being made! The last being that of the Environmental Ministry of Dion. There's the question of $400 million dollars in mis-appropriated funds!

So, we've ended back right where we started.... full circle, gc....just as I feared. This merry-go-round makes me dizzy. Bye.

Dion is not suspected of stealing money either (at least not by any credible source I've seen). If you want to make a wild accusation that Dion stole money, I can make just as wild of an accusation that Harper eats babies. It doesn't make either one of them true.

[betsy]

Well gc, I can't find a link...but the pundits and strategies were talking about the $400 million dollars misappropriated from environment budget.

However, I stumbled on something that is also interesting while searching for that link. I'm posting it as a separate topic.

[betsy]

For all these attempt at muddling the main issue in this topic, the fact remains: Nothing was said about integrity and corruptions, and the "culture of entitlement" the Liberals are perceived to have....that's the main reason why they lost the election.

That's what they talked of fixing right after their defeat in the last election. How they'll clean up from the top down! So of course people who are concerned about their corruptive nature as a party would want to hear what their plans are? Some had detailed plans envisioned for making "megatons of money" as part of their environmental plans...so what about corruptions and this culture of entitlement? Not even a whiff of it!

If they can include environmental plans, social justice, unity, etc., in their policies....why would the most important contributing factor of their loss suddenly be excluded?

[watching&waiting]

That is an easy answer, because they have done nothing more then hide the same old back behind the scene people in a better hidden place, Then they picked a person who was not dented as much by the Gomery and have made him their poster boy. Never mi d that his English os very bad, and that he also has had 4 billion dollars during his term as envoronment minister and it did nothing but increase our emmissions, and now there is $400 million that seems to be misappropriated, by this same person.

The Liberals sure think that people are shoort sighted, and stupid. Otherwise they would not have been so obvious in picking their new leader, someone that will say the same old crew are alive and well. Dion will not unite the party and it looks like if anything he will again appoint the old guard picks for his inner cabinet. So it will be interesting to watch. I do not see anyone other then Harper himself as being capable of calling an election and benefitting from it.

[MightyAC]

If they can include environmental plans, social justice, unity, etc., in their policies....why would the most important contributing factor of their loss suddenly be excluded?

As I mentioned before the CPC has killed the accountability/honesty issue by proving that they are neither. The apathetic masses also know as Canadian voters really thought the CPC was going to be different. They were promised honesty, accountability a listening ear. That along with a $100 per month per child incentive bought many votes. Unfortunately the honeymoon is over. The floor crossing, the clean air flop, the big income trust lie and the Quebecois as a nation plan really hit home with people in my neck of the woods. The masses are disillusioned now that captain accountability turned out to be just another lying politician. The apathy is back and the masses are chanting "same shit different party".

The next election will be fought and won with a new set of issues. The environment will be a front line battle this time and with accountability dead in the water, I'm willing to bet that many Canadians will return to the dark side and vote red. They are the natural governing party for a reason...

They only saving grace for all of us is that so far it looks like another minority is on its way, so we should be spared the full wrath of either major party. Hopefully, electoral reform will be well under way before we experience a false majority again.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Neither party is "clean". Having a government agency clear you of repsonibilty does little to convince me of your innocence. Remember the Airbus issue? This stuff goes on with any group of politicians in a partisan environment, unfortunately I believe it is expected.

This nation is failing. It is doing so because it is trying to be all things to all people. Utterly lacking in vision and determined to retain power, knowing no limits to its authority with no fixed election dates and no term limits is an open invitiation to belly up to the trough. There is no means of removing corrupt politicians like a form of recall legislation and therefore there is no means of creating accountability. I now hope it fails and that some more just form of democratic authority will rise from the ashes. Citizens deserve justive and democracy. They deserve a say in how their representatives act on their behalf. These things are lacking in this nation and because of it the spread of the democratic disease of apathy is crippling our nation. For those of you who can see this I say take care in how you form political opinions, and for those that cannot see this I say let this nation rest in peace.

[MightyAC]

For those of you who can see this I say take care in how you form political opinions, and for those that cannot see this I say let this nation rest in peace.

For those of you that can see this I say get involved in the electoral reform process. If you live in Ontario, BC, New Brunswick or PEI, the ball is already rolling, jump on and give it a push. In Ontario the citizens committee that will decide if we need electoral reform in Ontario and if so what form, is on tour right now asking for public input. Whether you feel changes are necessary or would like argue on behalf of the status quo get out and be heard. The work done at the provincial level will result in a public education process that will no doubt lead to an electoral reform push at the federal level. You can even submit your comments in writing via the web; they say every submission will be read by the committee.