Decriminalizing Marijuana

[JMSTRFNK]

I am young, and a vivid anti-pot person, thats all I have to say!

[Neal.F.]

I've seen the results and consequences of pot. They are in cemeteries, mental hospitals, public housing, welfare rolls, and on the streets. People I knew.

Pot was not the final cause, but I guarantee you it was the gateway to other things.

As I pointed out, potheads I knew are now on welfare, because they have been made lazy, slovenly, and even brain damaged. IT COSTS SOCIETY MONEY to have pot legal, as it does for it to be illegal.

Drug dealers have the same morals as murderers. They have absolutely NO conscience. They should have the booknthrown at them. I don't have a problem with what China does with them. And I have zero sympathy for them either. I'll be damned before I will regard a piece of s*** like a drug dealer as a respectable business person.

[Black Dog]

Pot was not the final cause, but I guarantee you it was the gateway to other things.

Is that your scientific opinion? The gateway drug premise confuses correlation with causation. Fact is, in cases where people started with pot and moved onto "hard" drugs, there were other factors (usually socio-economic) at work that influenced their choices.

As I pointed out, potheads I knew are now on welfare, because they have been made lazy, slovenly, and even brain damaged. IT COSTS SOCIETY MONEY to have pot legal, as it does for it to be illegal

The fact is, these people were likely lazy and slovely (BTW, pot doesn't cause brain damage) before tehy got into weed. I know lawyers, accoutants and scientists who smoke pot regularily and function better than most "lucid" individuals.

In cases where pot becomes a problem (because there is certainly such a thing as too much) it should be regarded as a medical condition, and not a criminal matter.

[theWatcher]

Here is my propblem with what the government has proposed:

By decriminalizing the possession of small amounts of marijuana they are in effect telling Canadians it is ok to smoke it.

This will increase demand and consumption will rise.

The only real way to get it is to buy it from a dealer, and dealing it is still illegal.

So in effect the goernment is giving more money to the drug dealers. More untaxed unGSTeed money.

Even dealers can use the new proposal to their advantage, they just can't carry very much of it at any single time. Take a pound split it up between 50 people and they can walk freely down the street without fear of incarceration.

So if they are not going to prosecute you for smoking it, why the heck can't you grow it?

I am predicting consumption rates as high as 10 times the current rate and all of that dope has to come from somewhere and make someone a profit, a tax free profit none the less.

Think the streets are not violent now? Wait till drug operations have doubled or tripled, and see what happens then.

Pot should either be legal or illegal. If it is legal then regulate it and tax it, just like tobacco. This would eliminate or at least severely reduce the criminal element.

[Neal.F.]

Pot was not the final cause, but I guarantee you it was the gateway to other things.

Is that your scientific opinion? The gateway drug premise confuses correlation with causation. Fact is, in cases where people started with pot and moved onto "hard" drugs, there were other factors (usually socio-economic) at work that influenced their choices.

As I pointed out, potheads I knew are now on welfare, because they have been made lazy, slovenly, and even brain damaged. IT COSTS SOCIETY MONEY to have pot legal, as it does for it to be illegal

The fact is, these people were likely lazy and slovely (BTW, pot doesn't cause brain damage) before tehy got into weed. I know lawyers, accoutants and scientists who smoke pot regularily and function better than most "lucid" individuals.

In cases where pot becomes a problem (because there is certainly such a thing as too much) it should be regarded as a medical condition, and not a criminal matter.

You sound like one of those Ivory tower left wingers who equate poverty to drug use.. the same people who have turned poverty into an industry.

I've known people who were good students, athletes and involved, who sudden;ly changed once they started smoking the ganja.

As I said, I would have no problem with giving the death penalty to the predators that sell drugs.

As for your assertion that you know accountants , lawyers, and scientists that smoke this lowlife product...

Are you insinuating that because they are members of a profession that they are better than the rest of us? I wonder what their prodfessional asscoiations would think of their members who smoke this stuff?

Hmmmm Lawyers.... enough said!!!!

Accountants... aren't these the same guys who're getting nailed for cooking the books?

Scientists.... the same bunch of loons who promote condoms as safe sex? and perform abortions?

I'm not saying all ,members of these professions are bad, far from it. Just that because someone has a certain degree does not make them any better. These people you know may be "functional" but there's more to the picture than meets the eye.

The pot issue makes me almost as, if not more angry than the gay marriage one.

[Black Dog]

I get what you're saying, Watcher, but I don't believe decriminalization will significantly increase demand. It's already so easy to get pot that anyone who wants to smoke it can. Those that don't won't suddenly start sparking up simply because it'll only get you a ticket.

Canada needs to explore Amsterdam's model.

As for your assertion that you know accountants , lawyers, and scientists that smoke this lowlife product...

Are you insinuating that because they are members of a profession that they are better than the rest of us? I wonder what their prodfessional asscoiations would think of their members who smoke this stuff?

Nope. Just countering the implication that every pot smoker is a lazy, welfare-collecting layabout.

Hmmmm Lawyers.... enough said!!!! 

Accountants... aren't these the same guys who're getting nailed for cooking the books?

Scientists.... the same bunch of loons who promote condoms as safe sex? and perform abortions?

That has got to be the single dumbest "argument" I've read on this board.

These people you know may be "functional" but there's more to the picture than meets the eye.

Uh...huh.

[Cameron]

A little story from me.

My cousin came down to Halifax awhile back looking for better work. He is a big pot head. And I can say from talking to him, hanging out with him is that I think it affects his behaviour (This is nota proven scientific fact). He was always mopey and didn't always want to do stuff, or he always needed to roll a joint and get high before attempting anything. He would come home from work and light up a joint, when he would go out with me and my friends, he was always stoned. This has turned me off from pot all together. I didn't like what it was doing to him and I will never do pot again (yea, I used to be a casual smoker). I have a future, I don't know about him....

[Mr. Chater]

no....

..no comment for the time being..

[Ronda]

I've seen the results and consequences of pot. They are in cemeteries, mental hospitals, public housing, welfare rolls, and on the streets. People I knew.

I have seen the same thing myself. Not in the "gateway drug" way, however. My mother was a social worker and doing quite well for herself and she started hanging around with ppl who smoked up all the time. She started when I was about 4-5yrs old and it was awful. She became intensely moody and smoked around 6 joints a day. I was always walking on eggshells, not sure if she'd hit me or laugh when I did something wrong. I could never have friends over because they might see or smell something. She, on many occasions, viciously accused me of stealing money and pot from her (even when I was as young as 10). It's gotten far worse as the years go by. She quit her social work when I was around 7 and went on welfare, where she's been ever since. She sits around all day, every day, smoking pot and watching tv. I've seen similar things happen with other ppl I know.

In short, it is not harmless and "natural". I read some moron in a 'letter to the editor' talking about how pot is less harmful than table salt - absolute bull. It's not harmless. It's pretty stupid of the gov't anyway, to be making light of pot with good ole Jean talking about how he's going to have a joint once it's decriminalised etc. Look at their attitude when it comes to cigarettes. At least cigarettes don't turn you into a paranoid schizophrenic. Oh, and they also have filters.

The fact is, these people were likely lazy and slovely (BTW, pot doesn't cause brain damage) before tehy got into weed.

Yeah, and alcoholic wife-beaters likely beat their wives and lost their jobs before becoming alcoholics too. I'm not saying there cannot be contributing factors but what you are saying above is wrong.

As for the brain damage, I found this info:

http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/brain-d...e-marijuana.htm

Permanent brain damage is not necessarily present but behavioural changes certainly are. In my own experience, having lived with someone for 12 yrs who was chronic, it can cause a LOT of behavioural changes. My mother finally agreed to go to a very reputable psychiatrist in Toronto a few years back and he told her that her problem was the drug. That she needed to get off of pot in order to function properly and correct the personality/emotional issues she was/is having. She refused, of course, and he refused to continue to treat her.

I would also point out that not a lot of studies, particularly long term, have been done with marijuana so we really don't know. Maybe it's not a fantastic idea to portray alcohol as dangerous, cigarettes as deadly and pot as "natural" and harmless? Furthermore, inhaling smoke, in any form, is not a good idea.

[Cameron]

What are some of your views on casual smokers. People that smoke once a week or less?

[Lost in Manitoba]

After high school, I found out that two of my best teachers were members of the legalization of mj leauge (can't remember if this is the actual name of it). They were discreet with this fact because they were teachers, but I guess their peers all knew of it. Then in University, I would say, a good half of all my proff's smoked pot, if only in the past or just on a casual basis. Now these were good teachers, they inspired and cared about their students. What a loss it would have been if they had been sentenced jail time or refused the job because of a criminal record.

As for only lazy low-life welfare kind of people...... if they couldn't find weed, they would just find another drug or chemical to meet their needs. In my city, you see the trash buying whiskey, cigs, and puffing on reefers on welfare day and the following week. After that you see them buying little bottles of listerine or aftershave, and picking up cigarette butts and putting them in a empty bread bag so they can reroll them later. (This is completely true, I see it all the time!)

[KrustyKidd]

Picture a check stop at Xmas time and a guy pulls up inebriated. The cop makes him blow into a breathalizer and it comes out postive. "Yes, Mr so and so has in fact consumed alcohol within the last 90 days. We have no idea if he is drunk now though as our testing does not allow us to know that so we'll just have to let him go." Mr so and so drives on and laughs at the close call. He whistles a tune happily while he thanks his lucky stars that blood tests are not constitutional.

The cop on the other hand knows that sooner or later Mr so and so or Mrs whatnot are going to take out some kid.

Sounds messed up doesn't it? Yet this is reality for law enforcement and employers. It is the factor that makes me against legalizing the stuff. When they come up with a roadside or workplace administered test to determine if a driver or heavy equipment operator is high AT THAT MOMENT then I'm sure more people will be receptive to legalization. Frankly I don't care if the smoker makes himself turn into a camel but when he can get into a position where he can hurt others and not be detected, that is scary. I know that is still happening but legalization would almost give it a stamp of approval.

[SirRiff]

i'd like to know why people think its pot that bring down people, and not people who are much more likely to bring down themselves.

some people have self destructive personalities. if its not drugs, it will be alcohol, or tobacco, or guns, or sex, or crime, or whatever.

there are plenty of acceptable behaviors, that if abused, will ruin you. eating is one of them.

you cannot blame alcohol, or tobacco, or pot if some yahoo wants to abuse it. they should be regulation, and taxed to hell to make them accessable to only people who really want them. but you cant babysit every single person.

alcohol, tobacco, and guns, harm FAR MORE PEOPLE then pot EVER will.

SirRiff

[theWatcher]

I get what you're saying, Watcher, but I don't believe decriminalization will significantly increase demand.

Thats not what the Americans think ...

John Walters, director of National Drug Control Policy Office, said Mr. Chrétien was being irresponsible when he said last week that he might try marijuana when he leaves office next February.

Canadians "are concerned about the behaviour of their Prime Minister, joking that he is going to use marijuana in his retirement," Mr. Walters told the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

"They're ashamed."

Canada is "the one place in the hemisphere where things are going the wrong [way] rapidly," he added. "It's the only country in this hemisphere that's become a major drug producer instead of reducing their drug production."

[Black Dog]

Canada is "the one place in the hemisphere where things are going the wrong [way] rapidly," he added. "It's the only country in this hemisphere that's become a major drug producer instead of reducing their drug production."

You mean the man who's job it is to wage the war on drugs is oppossed to liberalized pot laws? I'm shocked....

[Neal.F.]

As far as waging war on drugs goes, We should be taking a page from the CHINESE book. Send users to mandatory rehab, and send the dealers to the town garbage heap, with a bullet in the nape of the neck.

But since we don't have the death penalty in canada, a life sentence with no possibility of parole would be warranted. These people are dangerous offenders.

[Black Dog]

As far as waging war on drugs goes, We should be taking a page from the CHINESE book. Send users to mandatory rehab, and send the dealers to the town garbage heap, with a bullet in the nape of the neck.

But since we don't have the death penalty in canada, a life sentence with no possibility of parole would be warranted. These people are dangerous offenders.

Sounds like you and the Taliban would get along.

As the past 100 years of drug prohibition have demonstrated, harsh penalties don't solve the problem. Drug addicition is a medical, not a criminal problem and should be treated as such. And if you really want to put drug pushers out of business, you'd call for legalization.

[Morgan]

Black Dog,

I believe law enforcement officers might disagree with your theory that "legalizing pot will put pot pushers out of business." Police officers feel that lax pot laws have done enough damage as it is and want the existing laws toughened up.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentSe...ol=968793972154

"Drug war spills onto east-end streets: One 'soldier' killed during gun melee outside marijuana grow operation" by Curtis Rush Oct.22, 2003

Toronto could become like Chicago in the 1920s with organized gangs shooting up the streets if "lax legislation" continues to allow illegal marijuana grow operations to escalate, Toronto police say.

Staff Inspector Gary Ellis made the comments after revealing that a weekend murder was the result of a gunfight between competing gangs in a sleepy Scarborough neighbourhood.

In another case last week, $2.5 million in marijuana plants was discovered in an industrial unit on Finch Ave. E.

"This is an emerging trend we have to be aware of," Ellis said. In the shooting in Scarborough on Sunday, there were 13 combatants, Ellis said.

"There were enough weapons to arm an army," said Ellis, who added that these people are "soldiers." The victim didn't have any family in Canada and he had no known job or place of residence.

The arsenal included firearms, machetes, clubs and a whole range of weapons.

Ellis hopes legislators do something to toughen up the laws because Canada is becoming a haven for these operations, he said.

"Canada is known as a soft country on cannabis-type drugs," he said.

The drugs from these operations are often shipped out internationally and millions of dollars are at stake, Ellis said.

[daniel]

If and when pot will be legalized, the first to jump on the bandwagon will be cigarette companies. They already have the connections to smuggle cigarettes across the border. So I wouldn't doubt they would have connections to existing pot growers.

[SirRiff]

criminalizing pot does not seem to be worth its cost in resources to society.

people are actually dying of treatable disease and social violence. there is no way to justify locking up 18 yr olds for a joint when we still have other problems.

and there are several european nations that can handle pot being legal. no reasons we cant.

alcohol, tobacco, and guns kill more people then pot ever will.

SirRiff

[Black Dog]

Black Dog,

I believe law enforcement officers might disagree with your theory that "legalizing pot will put pot pushers out of business." Police officers feel that lax pot laws have done enough damage as it is and want the existing laws toughened up.

No surprise there. The war on drugs means money for police.

Toronto could become like Chicago in the 1920s with organized gangs shooting up the streets if "lax legislation" continues to allow illegal marijuana grow operations to escalate, Toronto police say.

My emphasis.

If it ain't illegal, how then would such operators stay in business, pray tell?

criminalizing pot does not seem to be worth its cost in resources to society.

Exactly.

[On Guard for Thee]

It's as simple as this: decriminalize pot and you take the pot market away from the criminals. I recall our illustrious leader Stephen Harper telling Peter Mansbridge that "when you buy that marijuana cigarette you aren't buying it from your neighbour, you're buying it from the Mexican drug cartels." That's quite true, and it will continue to be true with Stevie at the helm. I'd rather have people buy it from their neighbour. One way or the other they are going to get it. The latter scenario is much more friendly don't you think? There would be a whole lot less people in jail which would take a lot of strain off us taxpayers, But nope, Harper seems to want to build more jail cells and so he has to find more 20 year old dope smokers to throw in them. Get your wallets out, this is going to be costly. The Mexican drug lords must love Harper.

[guyser]

It's as simple as this: decriminalize pot and you take the pot market away from the criminals. I recall our illustrious leader Stephen Harper telling Peter Mansbridge that "when you buy that marijuana cigarette you aren't buying it from your neighbour, you're buying it from the Mexican drug cartels." That's quite true,

The first part is true, the take away from criminals, but there is very little to none involvement of MExican cartels up here.

Too easy for them to grow it themselves without the hassle

[On Guard for Thee]

I suspect you are correct about the Mexican involvement up here. After all we have that BC bud stuff up here so who needs the Mexican cartels. As someone on here has already mentioned, it ain't hard to find a joint if you want one. As with many issues of this nature, probably smarter to spend the money on prevention and education before the fact, than on jail cells after.

[AlienB]

.I don't consider marijuana or any other non processed natural plant to be "criminal" afterall god made it. None the less I do think that not giving people informed consent on other drugs is an issue I think the government should regulate "serious" drugs more, register dealers and insure they have an adequette knowledge of those drugs and require them to be insured like doctors. As for pot no, its nothing you can't get out of a bottle of alchohol or a pack of cigarettes. What I was concerned about was the radiation held in cigarette out of all that, it was equal to 100x the amount of radiation people get. So 140rads for 1 year o smoking vs 1.4 for a normal year exposure. in mSv, which may have to do with the cancer issues. As 140 x 10 is 1400 rads and 30 years of smoking is close to the lethal radiation exposure limit at about 10,000 rads.I'm not sure how pot smokes up but it seems that its not how much tar that is the real issue, the problem may be how much radioactive particles are in it.

None the less I'm not sure the amount of post, none the less, killing dealers is problematic, but i if they make manslaughter but don't have an intent to kill then I wouldn't think death would be the right sentence, however I would still consider it a 6 month to 5 year type issue if they were breaking the law and as a result killed someone. That is 6 month to 5 year in a labour camp in the north. Probably 6 month on first offence and 5 year or more if they went back to illegal activities.

None the less the amount of focus on drug is problematic in some respect it fuels the rebel bad boy image. Part of the problem is open season health insurance provided by the state, if people had to declare their drug use, and lost their coverage if they lied about it, and they paid for it, I think more people would be honest about it, and more health insured drug rehab, treatment or education, or prescription based programs would exist or the issue.

A lot of people really dont understand the effects of drugs, and that is the problem.

1. Realistic drug laws to fall in line with the realities of Drug Use in Canada, currently it is only fueling crime by making people criminals for acts that shouldn't be criminal, thus making people illegal and more prone to break the law because they are already leading an illegal lifestyle.

mandatory education programs to legally buy drugs should exist, so that more people are exposed to materials and they are tested on that knolwedge to facilitate lawful purchase.

points of sale monitored controlled substances so people who consume more drugs than is safe are both noted for instance purposes, and programs, as well as health monitoring for research statistic purposes and potential resale.

The government should set a rate of sale which is seen as non lethal.

There are some drugs that are serious health damagers, such as PCP, drugs with latent after effects and life long or terminal effects. Those are the drugs that need to be combated. Minor drugs such as Pot and MDMA, and Mushrooms are not so serious that limited controlled use with proper chemistry would create health risks. If drugs are managed properly and addiction is prevented recreational drugs should not be illegal. The seperation of lower schedule drugs from very serious drugs may prevent people from doing those more serious drugs rather than just lumping them in with the lightweigths. The current system supports a culutral gateway to substances abuse rather than substance management.

Doctors prescribe drugs that if used properly have some adverse health effects but if used properly can be not seriouslly harmful or jepordizing to health.

Their drug management systems are needed to create an alternative to the criminality of an act that over 50% of the population of Canada has partaken in.

Frankly due to the means of the current justice system I cannot advocate for a forced death sentence, I can only support a death sentence with consent of the person being held, after a public process. Such as death in court. IMO if its not so serious to kill the person on the spot why kill them, if they are a danger later why arn't they a danger now.

However I think hemlock is much better than a bullet because it is easier to manufacture. None the less for most current drug offences I think that the penalties are too heavy and it is just a wrong culture. It is doing more harm than good.

People seem to be ignoring the ionizing radiation issue of tobacco.

The 'way' some drugs are being used currently is just not the best way for health and safety of users.

A good drug strategy should address that through harm reduction by still giving people access to the drugs but also the implements to reduce harm by offering implements that reduce the health dangers and they are many, but not often easily associated with common street dealers. The government should be offering safer drugs and safer methods of dosing.

If we can remove ionizing radiation from grow ops,and we can implement tar free pot brands the health dangers to pot will drop.

Likewise we need to do the same with tobacco. We are radiating people and that is what is increasing cancer rates, chemical additives and ionizing radiation.

Pot doesn't contain even close to the amount of Radiation as tobacco.

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/radioactive-tobacco.2012-07-15

THC also opens up neural pathways that arn't often opened. Making the brain more active is good it makes humans more mentally active. An active mind is a healthy mind.

Edited July 18, 2013 by AlienB