Alliance PC Merger Discussion

[theWatcher]

Harper follows MacKay onto plane to confer

Sean Gordon

The Ottawa Citizen

Thursday, October 09, 2003

An air of "vaudevillian" farce descended on merger talks between the Canadian Alliance and Progressive Conservatives during a hectic day that saw Alliance leader Stephen Harper chase Tory leader Peter MacKay to Toronto.

In what was perhaps the strangest development yesterday in an already bizarre day, Mr. MacKay found himself on the same late-afternoon flight as the Alliance leader.

The two men conferred briefly in an airport arrival lounge, Alliance officials said, and agreed to try to set aside time for a more formal discussion later in the evening.

Mr. Harper's trip was an apparent bid to force a last-ditch meeting between the two leaders, and bring about a resolution to the impasse that has halted the talks.

Late Tuesday, Mr. MacKay offered to meet with Mr. Harper to sort out the differences that divide the two parties. Then he appeared to back away yesterday morning after Mr. Harper suggested they invite an "impartial intermediary."

Mr. Harper then said he'd be willing to meet "anywhere, any time," and when Mr. MacKay begged off, blaming a partisan event at Woodbine racetrack in Mississauga. Mr. Harper booked his flight to Toronto.

"The Alliance antics are almost vaudevillian. ... I keep waiting for the crook to appear from behind the curtain," said a Tory official.

Despite Mr. Harper's trip, there were no indications the Tory side was prepared to hold a meeting last night, with Mr. MacKay saying he had "no plans" to meet with Mr. Harper while in Toronto. However, he said he is "still prepared" to meet with the Alliance leader.

"We've said we're willing to meet to resolve this impasse. And at some point, you ... say 'OK, there are no more excuses, if we're serious about getting this done, let's get it done'," said Alliance spokesman Jim Armour.

The negotiations lurched to a stop on Tuesday when the six emissaries appointed by the parties found themselves at odds over the method by which to pick a leader for the new party.

Newfoundland MP Loyola Hearn, one of three Tory negotiators, said the impasse is "a philosophical difference."

The Tories want a new leader to be selected at a delegated convention where each riding is represented equally. The Alliance wants a weighted system where the ridings with the most members have more heft. Still, both sides insist their positions aren't incompatible.

"I don't think the deal is broken, it just needs more massage and manipulation," Mr. Hearn said, and Mr. Harper insisted there is "a very small gap on paper" between the two parties.

© Copyright 2003 The Ottawa Citizen

[Mr. Chater]

heh, well the story kind of changed there, somewhat.

[westcoast99]

Both CBC and CTV reported they met last night, and Mr. MacKay confirmed it.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Neal.F.]

They will. they must. or they will hang side by side on the gallows of political history.

[dnsfurlan]

My sense here is that Mackay is playing coy. I don't think he has ever wanted a deal. And, as he did last week, he's trying to make it look like he's open to a deal. But his caucus is still angry at the thought of any merger.

From my reading of the reports, the Alliance has compromised on one-member, one-vote. I haven't seen any compromise from Mackay.

There is so much jockeying and positionig going on here. Its hard to make out what is really going on.

[theWatcher]

My opinion all along is that Mr Harper is trying to make a deal and Mr. Mackay is having meetings to see if they should have a meeting to make a plan to make a deal.

Now who is really trying to make a deal, and who is just trying to save face?

[dnsfurlan]

Seems to me that the PCs are stuck in the same frame of mind they've been in for the past ten years - waiting for the day when Canadians return to the fold.

The problem with that attitude is, of course, that they may never be back. Also, CA members were once part of that fold. And I doubt they'll be coming back if some of the open hatred of them is seen to scuttle these talks. But sometimes I get the feeling that the PCs don't care. They would rather die believeing they were right then change their attitudes towards anything.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope these merger talks weren't an exercise in showmanship - by either party. But what I see from the PCs isn't inspiring. I see Gerald Keddy referring to us as a "Pit of Snakes" and I see Mackay doing everything he can to play the clock out. He's even declared Thanksgiving as the final buzzer. And he seems more than content to hear it ring and end a process which would see him lose his job, or get the PCs to embrace something new for a change.

Again, I hope I'm wrong. The next few days should be telling.

[dnsfurlan]

You see - this is what Mackay had to say about the prospects of a merger:

Earlier this week MacKay said there is real fatigue on both sides and he doesn't know if there is room to bridge the gap. "It might have to wait until after an election," said MacKay.

Alliance, PC merger talks may resume next week

The guy already can't wait for the clock to run out, so that he can get a crack at running as leader of the PCs in the next election.

The ONLY alternative explanation I can see here is that he is looking as though he is fighting the good fight before any inevitable merger does materialize. It also might explain why he's in the talks in the first place.

That's part of the puzzle here. On the one hand, his actions seem to suggest he's looking to squirm out of merger. On the other hand, he has come to the table, at the very least to look like he wants merger. But how can he have it both ways - wanting merger and not wanting merger?

Is he coy, or simply out of the loop?

[dnsfurlan]

I think Stephen Harper seems to agree with me:

Chances of uniting right dim, memo says

In the article, a leaked memo reveals Harper's view that Mckay has not offered any compromise in the talks, and that any progress made so far looks better on paper than it does in reality.

Get this beauty from Mackay. I can't believe he actually said it:

Mr. MacKay also rejected the notion that his party has not compromised, noting that it has agreed to drop the word "progressive" from its name.

Hey, with compromises like that, it should take until about the twenty-third century for this merger to take place.

[Neal.F.]

These Tories seem to like being big fish in a small pond. And there is a wind named Martin about to blow over the land that will leave the pond dry with 15 fish writhing on dry land gasping for life, which they will not find.

And I remain convinced that the result of failure will mean an even larger Liberal majority that may not be unseated for generations, if ever... "after all, who else is there to vote for?"

MacKay will then have the distinction of being an even worse leader than Kim Campbell.

[westcoast99]

There is a reason why he has continued these discussions for weeks now. He does want a merger. But not one that will compromise on key issues in the PC constitution.

MacKay wants to be a bridge builder. The challenge he faces is that he must satisfy those who are deadset against a merger (for example, his good friend André Bachand) and at the same time those who do want a merger. (Bill Casey, Loyola Hearn, Rex Barnes.)

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Neal.F.]

I could not agree with you more Gugsy, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations, MAcKay has so badly damged his own creidbility that he actually stands to lose some members such as those you named, Mssrs. Casey, Barnes and Hearn. Possibly a few more as well, when the see the writing on the wall.

Who cares about the Red Tories anyway? Why does a conservative party want members who support gay marriage, abortion and other such liberla causes? They are a liability.

all it takes is for 4 Tories to join the Alliance, and the PC caucus loses party status....the only bright spot is that they will not be 5th party... they just won't BE a party.

Their delusions are beyond belief. They have a massive debt, which the new party would retire (from Alliance funds) with a merger. Without a merger, they'll fight the next election with one hand behind tied behind their backs again. Fortunately for them, it will be their last one as they go the way of Social Credit. And they will. Even though I disagree very strongly with joe Clark on just about every social issue, he lent the party a measure of credibility, which is something peter MacKay cannot do.

As it stands today, Bay street and other donors have turned off the taps to both parties, until they can work out a merger. If they get it together, we have a contest. If not, the PCs are certainly doomed to oblivion and the Alliance will be left a shadow of its former self.

However, if Peter pumpkin-eater keeps playing silly games, and 3-4 PC members from downeast DO cross the floor and thelp form a new "Conservative" Party, it would show that they are the clear alternative on the right, the money taps just might be turned on, with respect to how Harper and his people have handled things, and the fact that the party would have a beachhead in the east.

However, the best scenario does remain that a deal is struck as per the discussions of the last few weeks. Less messy. Let Joe Clark retire, and Bachand, Brison, borotsik me in a party that favours gay marriage and abortion. That will add up to 10 new members and ONE common front for the next election.

[westcoast99]

Joe Clark brought honesty, trust, and credibility to the PC Party.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Neal.F.]

Totally agreed.... My mind's eye has also conjured up pre-election ads that say "Peter Mackay...Not up to the job..." ;-)

That said, it is crucial that should the Reds exert too much pressure on MacKay and he balks, I hope that at least 4 Atlantic Tories DO cross the floor, and put a final end to the farce, so that all attenetion and energy can be devoted to promoting the real conservative alternative, so that Canadians can "choose change" .

[Alliance Fanatic]

I think that Harper just announced that he is willing to compromise on leadership selection in order for a merger to happen. I am dissapointed however, because I strongly believe in the process of one member, one vote. Ah well.

I'm surprised that Gugsy is actaully considering throwing away his membership.

-The Alliance is currently running pre-election ads in Atlantic Canada.

[westcoast99]

-The Alliance is currently running pre-election ads in Atlantic Canada.

If they merge, they could realistically take 30-50 Liberal seats in Ontario. The PCs are doing well in Ontario now, who knows if they will hold iup. Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[dnsfurlan]

I think you guys have raised an interesting point as it relates to Mackay's handling of this whole affair, especially if you want to look at all of this from a broader perspective.

Unlike Gugsy, I question Mackay's sincerity in these talks. I think Harper does too, which is why I think Harper started leaking to the media a couple of weeks ago. He wanted to call Mackay's bluff. I think he has.

So, if it is true that Mackay has simply been trying to run out the clock, and that he will be seen as the reason for no merger, what then? Will there be serious consequences for his apparrent obstruction?

Neal raised the possibility of some PC MPs crossing the floor, and of financial taps being turned on for a Canadian Alliance/Conservative party entity.

I guess I just wonder how realistic such an outcome might be.

My sense has been that Mackay has been forced into these talks to give the appearance of wanting unity. If he doesn't convince the right people of his sincerity, will we see some kind of exodus to a Canadian Alliance centred conservative party on the Right?

And I'll even throw in a doozy. Is there the possibility that Brian Mulroney would endorse some kind of exodus to the Alliance, or some hybrid thereof?

I'm just wondering how significant the consequences are of Mackay's perceived insincerity.

Because the current status-quo seems impalatable to many. So, would such a drastic possibility in fact become reality? Could we see a shift of power over to the Alliance in the wake of Mackay's bungling? How realistic is this?

Otherwise, all these talks were an exercise in futlility, thanks to Mr. Mackay. I wonder how many people will be satisfied with this state of affairs.

[westcoast99]

I doubt Tory MPs will cross the floor.

I don't think creating another party without the PC's will do anything either. That's what the Canadian Alliance is.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Neal.F.]

I think Harper has indeed called the bluff. And that the bluff will be the coup-de-grace for the PC party... but I also think that unless those Tories who see the writing on the wall get on board and cross to the CA, they will go down with the ship, and the CA itself mauy not really gain out of this. However if they cross, then I think the dynmaic has indeed shifted.

[dnsfurlan]

We've got to merge. No other option as far as I'm concerned.

MacKay is done for, if he does not merge then Harper will lead the alternative in the next election.

I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. You say there is no other option to merger. But, if Mackay is seen as the spoiler, does the Alliance become that option? And how viable an alternatve would it be?

You see, there are many people who seem to want this thing to happen. If it doesn't, will they say "the heck with it" and go Alliance?

I would like to think that all of this has not been an exercise in futility. If merger doesn't happen, will a rally around the Alliance be the consolation prize?

I just wonder how realistic that possibility is.

[Neal.F.]

If Mr Harper plays his cards right, and doesn't EVER play the obstructionist, and Peter Pumpkin-eater keeps playing the fool, there might be a reluctant shift to the Alliance, but certianly not the seismic shift that is needed to change the whole dynamc. At minimum, Harper needs to score a handful of members in the Atlantic.

If he can succeed in that, not only does he kill the PC party once and for all by robbing them of party status, but he effectively silences all the Red Tories like Clark, Borotsik, Bachand and Brison as they are consigned to the status of independent.

What an ignominous end for a career such as Joe Clark who once sat in the PMO, and was a Very prominent Cabmin in the Mulroney govt.

What's MacKay worried about? The handful of Red Tories that won't come along? Is he worried that he'll be a mere MP, while Brison leads the charge of the light brigade?

[Goldie]

The PC constitution sates to ;

"2.2.1 Build a national coalition of people who share these beliefs and who reflect the regional, cultural and socio-economic diversity of Canada;"

Is Peter Mackay in breach of this principal when he states that he does not want to give one member one vote because it would be weighted in favour of Alberta.

Tell me, any PC member, what is equal about a Nova Scotia riding with 200 members and Calgary center with 2000 members? This would be a complete injustice to tell 1800 members in Calgary that they don't count, their void in picking the leader and forming policy. This is not democratic and exactly why we in the west feel alienated. The strongest conservative base is alberta, they should a greater say in a National Conservative party .

The Liberals would say this is why Ontario and Quebec have a greater say in confederation. So Mackay beleives what is good for central Canada, being heavily weighted in parliament, is not good for the Conservative Party in giving the greater ridings more or greater input into the formation and leadership choice.

Just as Ontario and Quebec have the greatest say in who becomes PM. So by Mr. Mackays reasoning in dealing with Harper as applied to confederation all 10 provinces should elect say 25 PMs and what? 5 from the territorries based on the percentages of votes received in each of the 25 ridings.

There sure as hell would be alot of pointless voting in Ontario and Quebec. Imagine 100,000 votes for a single Liberal in Toronto would be heading to the same place as the Conservative from Saskatchewan with 10,000 votes, But what the hell it would be equal. Really Mackay!