Liberals poll even with Conservatives

[Cameron]

What makes you think the Cons. are "Pretending to care about the environment"? I see more action than the Libs EVER did.

What I see in this environment bill is one that balances economics and the environment. If you just slap restrictions on businesses, they are going to find a way to make up for the loss. That usually comes in the form of less services for the same amount of money, and layoffs.

Politics is about balance. You can't have all the cake and not expect to stay thin.

[jdobbin]

The only two Liberal leadership candidates I would consider voting for are Kennedy and Marth Hall Findlay. Unfortunately neither one will win. The only problem with Kennedy is that his french isn't good enough and he never got enough support in Quebec. But I'd think he would be better then the alternatives.

But needless to say, the Liberals need to be set straight. They think they have a god given right to govern this country due to percieved arrogance. They need to sit the next four years out. The sky isn't falling like many lefties say it is, and the current government is doing just fine. No deficit, thats about all it takes for Canadian's to not kick out a government. It's worked for the past 14 years.

I like Hall Findlay as well. I'd like to see her win a seat, learn her French and see her perform. She could be one to watch.

I rated the government a B+ a few months ago. I said Afghanistan would be an issue. I've been told that is non-sense. Well, now the support for the mission is 44% and 54% of people don't support the foreign policy of the government. It has hurt the government.

I don't know that people have been able to warm to Harper the man. This is what Martin's problem was. People supported him so long as he showed some competence. The months before the election and the election itself showed the drift and people gravitated towards Harper's confidence and simple message of a few choice promises.

Heathcare is the number 1 priority according to the latest poll commissioned. Afghanistan is number 2. The environment has jumped to number 3. Environics says the Liberals and Conservatives are in a dead heat.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/08/poll-support.html

[gerryhatrick]

1,026 Canadians, wow....that's a lot. Wonder if they called a bunch of Liberals.

I have to laugh when people mock polls because there's only 1 or 2 thousand people questioned.

[jdobbin]

You know, this is what gets me....The Cons. have been in power since Jan, not even a year. Everyone wants them to pull a miracle out of their ass. The Libs were in for 14 years and accomplish some things, and didn't accomplish others. All of a sudden the Cons. are in power and everyone wants the country to change overnight.

Policy takes time. And it's even more difficult working with a slim minority. If you want the Cons. to show some results, give them a four year term.

I don't care who runs the Liberals, it's still filled with bad apples. They need to sit out the next few.

The Conservatives will have to offer a winning domestic and foreign policy then. The majority won't be handed to them just because the Liberals are thought to need a four year break.

[jdobbin]

I have to laugh when people mock polls because there's only 1 or 2 thousand people questioned.

The CBC has a poll out today as well as the CP poll.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/08/poll-support.html

[jdobbin]

I disagree. Let the provinces spend it as they wish. Their voters will deal with them provincially.

What happens is the provinces cry for more money and then blame the Feds for waiting lists. The provinces always seem to do well blaming the provinces.

[gerryhatrick]

You know, this is what gets me....The Cons. have been in power since Jan, not even a year. Everyone wants them to pull a miracle out of their ass. All of a sudden the Cons. are in power and everyone wants the country to change overnight.

I don't want these rightwing ideologues to pull anything out of their ass, thanks!

And don't change the Country either. It's a good Country, just needs a little tweaking. It's not some "second-tier socialistic Country" trying to "mask it's second-rate status". as our dear PM said not all that long ago.

Nope, just move 'em on down the road as far as I'm concerned.

[Cameron]

Afghanistan, Afghanistan. The problem with this little war that is going on, is the Canadian Media and their move toward sensationalism. I have a brother training to Afgh. and he tells me the media is just crap when reporting on what's going on over there.

The mission is multi-dimensioned. You have warlords, Taliban, civilians, etc. There needs to be infrastructure built for people, but you have to provide security before you can build that infrastructure. The taliban is not a group that you can sit down and have tea with and talk about the future (a la, Jack Layton).

On the other hand, we need the government to come out with a clear plan and to reinforce the notion of security and the need for Canada to continue on with the mission.

This is something that I think Canada is not getting the news it needs to hear. The MSM is all about what will sell ad spots and slots in papers. The government needs to consistently tell us what's going on and to bring to light the progress that IS being made over there.

[Cameron]

You know, this is what gets me....The Cons. have been in power since Jan, not even a year. Everyone wants them to pull a miracle out of their ass. All of a sudden the Cons. are in power and everyone wants the country to change overnight.

I don't want these rightwing ideologues to pull anything out of their ass, thanks!

And don't change the Country either. It's a good Country, just needs a little tweaking. It's not some "second-tier socialistic Country" trying to "mask it's second-rate status". as our dear PM said not all that long ago.

Nope, just move 'em on down the road as far as I'm concerned.

You frustrate me sometimes Garry. Substance, substance....and this IS some second-tier socialist country. In my opinion, of course.

[jdobbin]

Afghanistan, Afghanistan. The problem with this little war that is going on, is the Canadian Media and their move toward sensationalism. I have a brother training to Afgh. and he tells me the media is just crap when reporting on what's going on over there.

The mission is multi-dimensioned. You have warlords, Taliban, civilians, etc. There needs to be infrastructure built for people, but you have to provide security before you can build that infrastructure. The taliban is not a group that you can sit down and have tea with and talk about the future (a la, Jack Layton).

On the other hand, we need the government to come out with a clear plan and to reinforce the notion of security and the need for Canada to continue on with the mission.

This is something that I think Canada is not getting the news it needs to hear. The MSM is all about what will sell ad spots and slots in papers. The government needs to consistently tell us what's going on and to bring to light the progress that IS being made over there.

It is up the government to sell the mission to Canadians not the media. Perhaps if they let Canadian senators and MPs go to Afghanistan, they could see what is happening. Canada's Parliamentary committee has never been there even though they keep asking the government. Every other NATO country has sent tonnes of people.

[geoffrey]

Gerry,

The areas we lack are productivity and education. Not social conditions, not social services, nothing... productivity. We still have a disgusting unemployment rate nation wide and Ontario is losing jobs quite quickly.

How will your non-CPC government deal with these issues? I definitely don't trust the NDP with productivity or unemployment. I like Kennedy on productivity and enterprise. What's your take? How much of an election issue can these critical issues be?

Does anyone get productivity outside of the economics sphere?

[Cameron]

Does anyone get productivity outside of the economics sphere?

I get it....

[geoffrey]

Does anyone get productivity outside of the economics sphere?

I get it....

And how is raising taxes on income trusts fixing it?

[Cameron]

Does anyone get productivity outside of the economics sphere?

I get it....

And how is raising taxes on income trusts fixing it?

Because the government was set to loose BILLIONS in tax revenue because of the switch. The taxes don't come into effect until 2011, so it's down the road. What I've been reading through the business journals is saying that it maybe a shock to the system, but the economy will recover. IT were not good for the government and revenue. People may take a hit, but the market will recover.

But again, I'm not the expert. A life and death situation for Canada, no.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The Conservatives will have to offer a winning domestic and foreign policy then. The majority won't be handed to them just because the Liberals are thought to need a four year break.

Fair enough. It's another minority unless we earn a majority. We can live with that...

[geoffrey]

Because the government was set to loose BILLIONS in tax revenue because of the switch. The taxes don't come into effect until 2011, so it's down the road. What I've been reading through the business journals is saying that it maybe a shock to the system, but the economy will recover. IT were not good for the government and revenue. People may take a hit, but the market will recover.

But again, I'm not the expert. A life and death situation for Canada, no.

The government losing tax revenue?!?! GREAT!!! FANTASTIC!!! That means Canadians have more money!!

There is no such thing as corporate taxes, you and I pay them all, less of them is a victory for us.

There is a productivity argument to taxing income trusts, but lost government revenue isn't it.

[Ricki Bobbi]

There is no such thing as corporate taxes, you and I pay them all, less of them is a victory for us.

If there is no such thing as corporate taxes then how come you hae tried to turn eery thread over the last week into an attack on the Conservatives for raising taxes...

[August1991]

I'd love a majority either way. I'm kind of sick of election time posturing non-stop.

Given this latest poll and the CBC poll, it looks like we're in for minority governments for the foreseeable future. Chretien's majorities were based on a split Tory vote. The BQ makes it impossible to get a majority.

There is a productivity argument to taxing income trusts, but lost government revenue isn't it.

Agreed.

But look Geoffrey, when managers and lawyers spend their time figuring out ways to set up an income trust and then this trust distorts investors' decisions, this is not good for a country's productivity measures. A country doesn't get rich when people's efforts are devoted to running around in circles merely to avoid taxes.

----

This thread is interesting because of gerry's remark that Canada is ok, it just needs some tweaking. I don't agree.

Canadian GDP per capita is now about 80% of US GDP per capita and that wasn't the case 25 years ago. Worse, this country is performing below potential.

I think it's because we have too much of the wrong kind of government. From pay equity to teachers' unions, from bad refugee policies to government-financed lobby groups on through a health system that is divorced from a price mechanism and EI that is anything but insurance, it all adds up to a huge deadweight dragging us all. This kind of government, when it was new in the late 1960s and 1970s, worked more or less. It doesn't anymore. And no one really knows how to fix it. Trying to fix it is a political minefield. Most people tolerate the burden because the country is rich enough to give them a decent living.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Given this latest poll and the CBC poll, it looks like we're in for minority governments for the foreseeable future. Chretien's majorities were based on a split Tory vote. The BQ makes it impossible to get a majority.

We are a long way off from the next election.

The Conservatives control the timeline and will focus their attacks on the new Liberal leader when he is chosen.

One of the Conservative's greatest regrets is they didn't have the time to use their huge advantage in fundraising with a massive pre-writ ad blitz.

The Conservatives still have a huge lead over the Liberals in fundraising. They have far more control over the timing of this election than they did over the January election.

Their numbers will go up before the writ is dropped.

[Canadian Blue]

If the conservatives bring out a new policy on the environment which the majority of Canadian's accepts, as well as fix the fiscal imbalance, then we could see a majority in the next election. I think the two areas the conservatives need to work on are the environment, and the fiscal imbalance.

[Ricki Bobbi]

If the conservatives bring out a new policy on the environment which the majority of Canadian's accepts, as well as fix the fiscal imbalance, then we could see a majority in the next election. I think the two areas the conservatives need to work on are the environment, and the fiscal imbalance.

Income trusts gives the Conservatives the money to *solve* the fiscal imbalance.

Environment is a tough nut to crack, but it is doable if they can work with the opposition parties to create an 'actual' made in Canada plan.

I do agree though, if the Conservatives can accomplish those two things a majority is in their grasp.

[geoffrey]

There is no such thing as corporate taxes, you and I pay them all, less of them is a victory for us.

If there is no such thing as corporate taxes then how come you hae tried to turn eery thread over the last week into an attack on the Conservatives for raising taxes...

What are you talking about? That's my problem. You can't tax a company. Your taxing investors, which is, you and I. Every single possible tax in existance is taxing us. No exception, you pay it ALL.

I'd love a majority either way. I'm kind of sick of election time posturing non-stop.

Given this latest poll and the CBC poll, it looks like we're in for minority governments for the foreseeable future. Chretien's majorities were based on a split Tory vote. The BQ makes it impossible to get a majority.

Damned Quebec, always creating a hassel for the rest of us. Maybe we could split the Tory vote again, I'll take up one half?

There is a productivity argument to taxing income trusts, but lost government revenue isn't it.

Agreed.

But look Geoffrey, when managers and lawyers spend their time figuring out ways to set up an income trust and then this trust distorts investors' decisions, this is not good for a country's productivity measures. A country doesn't get rich when people's efforts are devoted to running around in circles merely to avoid taxes.

The productivity issue with income trusts is that the company doesn't retain earnings. There is no money to invest in R&D and growth. That is the real issue, anything else is smoke and mirrors. It wouldn't be an issue if the government got out of the business of justifying taxation by putting a 'corporate' in front of it.

This kind of government, when it was new in the late 1960s and 1970s, worked more or less. It doesn't anymore. And no one really knows how to fix it. Trying to fix it is a political minefield. Most people tolerate the burden because the country is rich enough to give them a decent living.

Your right August, the productivity gap between Canada and the US (and even the EU) is growing. One reason might be that our corporate tax structure smells like something cooked up in the 1910's. There is a good first step... Ireland revitalized their economy quickly by decreasing barriers to foreign investment such as corporate taxes. We can do the same. I hate to agree with Harper on this, but Canada is becoming a second-class country quickly... it's not too late to turn that around though.

We are no longer competitive in the business world on the international stage. All that is keeping us off life support is the massive resource base out west. Ontario has dropped jobs this month again. Wake up, now is the time to be cutting taxes like crazy. Tons of revenue ($13b surplus?!?!) and dropping economic growth. Every economist would be all over a MASSIVE tax slash and burn right now.

Income trusts gives the Conservatives the money to *solve* the fiscal imbalance.

By collecting more tax the Fed solves the imbalance? Nope. By collecting more tax it inflates their surplus which most Canadians wrongly believe is a sign of fiscal competence. Solving the fiscal imbalance would be getting out health care and education, cutting 50% of the tax base and transfering the tax room to the provinces.

Environment is a tough nut to crack, but it is doable if they can work with the opposition parties to create an 'actual' made in Canada plan.

I do agree though, if the Conservatives can accomplish those two things a majority is in their grasp.

Where do they get seats? 416? No. Montreal? No. Hmmmm... maybe 4 seats up for grabs? Tough luck my friend.

[geoffrey]

Oh and August... a further note on the avoidance being a negative factor on productivity.

I agree to an extent. It's also a troubling sign however when a government over taxes businesses to the point where they need to construct elaborate taxation schemes to avoid punitive taxes.

Income Trusts would be permissible in many countries under their laws, it's as simple as setting up a limited partnership (well...). It only ever took off in Canada. Why? Why do companies in Canada invest more in avoiding taxes than elsewhere?

It's a great sign that we need a massive tax reform. As in 0% corporate tax ASAP.

[normanchateau]

Given this latest poll and the CBC poll, it looks like we're in for minority governments for the foreseeable future. Chretien's majorities were based on a split Tory vote. The BQ makes it impossible to get a majority.

We are a long way off from the next election.

The Conservatives control the timeline and will focus their attacks on the new Liberal leader when he is chosen.

The Opposition controls the time line in a minority government. Paul Martin ultimately discovered that.

You are correct that the Conservatives will focus their attacks on the new Liberal leader since the alternative would be touting their failed policies and broken promises. Poor Harper, just a few short months in power and already he's raised personal income taxes on those earning the least, betrayed and slapped an export tax on the lumber industry and broke his promise to seniors not to tax the income trusts. But I think the failed Afghanistan mission might do him even more harm as will his perceived link to the gasping Bush administration, now repudiated by a majority of Americans.

[MightyAC]

What makes you think the Cons. are "Pretending to care about the environment"? I see more action than the Libs EVER did.

Do you see "action"? Do you also see ghosts, leprechauns, elves and dwarves? I saw a proposed, lack luster, bill that bombed. I then saw Harper and Layton expertly bury it in committee where it will stay until after the election. Black Jack Layton can tell his supporters that he is setting the agenda and saving the world. Steve-O Harper can pretend to be doing something about the environment as well as use this as an example of cooperation. In the end nothing has happened but two politicians have gained brownie points with their followers.

Keep in mind that Harper could advocate for the eradication of seals in Canada and you'd be on here the next day telling us that Steve-O has done more to save the Cod stocks than the Libs ever did.

The point of my post is that despite the many blows to its image lately, Harper and the CPC will be strong in time for an election.