PM Harper and the GST

[SamStranger]

Well, whether their is a spring election or not- Harper is going to come under some heat about the GST...

During the last election, a poll showed that 75% of Canadians supported a GST cut because they believed it would lead to eventually abolishing it. Now, a few days ago Harper gave a speech saying "The GST will not be cut again next year- We never said that. We said we would cut it by 1% in the first budget (which we did) and cut another 1% in 5 years"

Sadly, cutting it by 1% in 5 years won't bring us any closer to abolishing it. Now, I am a Tory and I supported Stephen Harper 100% in the last election- BUT... I think that instead of cutting $22 billion dollars worth of taxes and tax incentives (2006 spring budget) they should have cut the GST from 7% to 5%, then put foward leglislation that abolishes the GST by 2010. Make sense?? I like the idea of a tax credit of Tradespeople tools, juniour sports, $80 for shool book, transit pass credit... but a GST overhaul would be much better politically, and for all us hardworkers.

Now, anyone who says "we need the GST" are bullshiters. The Liberals PROMISED to "eliminate the GST" in the 1993 election, but never did. Now 13 years later, it's time to cut it (like the tories did) and put us on the path to elemintate it. Realistically, if they put forward leglislation that Abolishes the GST by January 1st 2010, all they have to do it cut spending by 2% each budget to pay for the missing gap of the GST. As long as they dont cut Health Care, Millitary, or Crime- and don't raise other taxes, im fine with it!

[SamStranger]

[Riverwind]

Harper should raise the GST to 10% and bring in a flat tax.

[SamStranger]

Harper should raise the GST to 10% and bring in a flat tax.

Are you ignorant...??? Government spending has gone up 40% in the last 20 something years, thats why were paying these damn high taxes- and you want to raise it more!? If our society was more CONSERVATIVE we would be able to cut taxes dramatically without having a bad effect. Im assuming you share the NDP mentality of "tax and spend". Well im sorry- the conservative way is much better. Decrease government activity and spending and lower taxes. Thats much better Jack.

[Riverwind]

were paying these damn high taxes- and you want to raise it more!?

No I want to raise the GST and cut income taxes. The GST is too low, income taxes are too high.

[SamStranger]

were paying these damn high taxes- and you want to raise it more!?

No I want to raise the GST and cut income taxes. The GST is too low, income taxes are too high.

That doesnt make much sense. Cutting sales tax (GST) will encourage more spending- therefore will help the economy. I admit Income Taxes are criminally high (almost 40% of my grosse) but the GST is much bigger enemy. Id rather have Income Taxes taken off then when I go to buy a $20 CD is end up paying $2,$3,$4,$5,$6 in tax...

[Riverwind]

Cutting sales tax (GST) will encourage more spending- therefore will help the economy.

Our economy has a saving problem - not a spending one. Cutting income taxes will increase savings and would likely increasing spending as well since people with more disposable income spend more.

Taxation is nothing but a choice of poison. Value added taxes like the GST are a less harmful poison than income taxes. Eliminating the GST would require income taxes to rise or at least stay the same. Therefore eliminating the GST is a really dumb idea.

[leonardcohen]

Well, whether their is a spring election or not- Harper is going to come under some heat about the GST...

During the last election, a poll showed that 75% of Canadians supported a GST cut because they believed it would lead to eventually abolishing it. Now, a few days ago Harper gave a speech saying "The GST will not be cut again next year- We never said that. We said we would cut it by 1% in the first budget (which we did) and cut another 1% in 5 years"

Sadly, cutting it by 1% in 5 years won't bring us any closer to abolishing it. Now, I am a Tory and I supported Stephen Harper 100% in the last election- BUT... I think that instead of cutting $22 billion dollars worth of taxes and tax incentives (2006 spring budget) they should have cut the GST from 7% to 5%, then put foward leglislation that abolishes the GST by 2010. Make sense?? I like the idea of a tax credit of Tradespeople tools, juniour sports, $80 for shool book, transit pass credit... but a GST overhaul would be much better politically, and for all us hardworkers.

Now, anyone who says "we need the GST" are bullshiters. The Liberals PROMISED to "eliminate the GST" in the 1993 election, but never did. Now 13 years later, it's time to cut it (like the tories did) and put us on the path to elemintate it. Realistically, if they put forward leglislation that Abolishes the GST by January 1st 2010, all they have to do it cut spending by 2% each budget to pay for the missing gap of the GST. As long as they dont cut Health Care, Millitary, or Crime- and don't raise other taxes, im fine with it!

One thing to keep in mind,once the government taps into such a revenue boon like the GST they are never going to give it up.Never.

[fellowtraveller]

We live in a workers paradise, and all this frivolous chat about cutting taxes is unpatriotic.

[SamStranger]

Cutting sales tax (GST) will encourage more spending- therefore will help the economy.

Our economy has a saving problem - not a spending one. Cutting income taxes will increase savings and would likely increasing spending as well since people with more disposable income spend more.

Taxation is nothing but a choice of poison. Value added taxes like the GST are a less harmful poison than income taxes. Eliminating the GST would require income taxes to rise or at least stay the same. Therefore eliminating the GST is a really dumb idea.

If our budget was $150 billion a year, apposed to $250 billion a year how it is now- we could afford to eliminate the GST and mabye some income taxes. Cutting spending is the direction we need. No more social programs. Health Care, Millitary, Infastructure and Crime should cover the $150 billion a year-

Have you been brainwashed by the lying liberals and NDP? They voted AGAINST the GST in parliment in 1990, and now they are the champions of the GST. The GST should NEVER have been brought it. Mulrooney had to get the queens permission to appoint 8 Progressive Conservative Senators so that the bill would pass. It was a crime. The GST should not exsist.

[geoffrey]

GST and VAT's of all sorts are regressive, everyone pays an equal amount. Any credit program just makes them an income based tax anyways.

Eliminate the GST and put in a small flat-tax. Then have the government cut and cut to prevent too great a deficit (they look ugly in Canada). Then we'd all be much happier.

Or even better. Have the Fed nearly cut taxes completely and get out of the delivery of provincial programs like health and education. Our Federal tax shouldn't go much beyond military and foreign affairs. The rest essientially is a provincial matter... but our current tax system doesn't reflect that.

That leaves us with places like Newfoundland, where they blame Ottawa for not giving enough (ridiculous) instead of blaming their provincial officals for poor management of their economy. If their provincial politicans had to tax them at the massive rate to sustain their frivalous spending programs, they'd be quickly booted out of office and more competent people brought in.

[Riverwind]

Have you been brainwashed by the lying liberals and NDP?

Hardly. I fully supported Mulroney when he brought in this essential reform to our tax system. I critized the Liberal plan to scrap the tax in 1993 as well.

Bottom line: consumption taxes are good. income taxes are bad. People who think consumption taxes are worse than income taxes do not look at the big picture.

Incidently, there is no magic bullet that will reduce gov't spending much less than what it is today. There are some wasteful programs but cutting these would only bring in limited savings. The vast majority of public spending is on programs that the majority of the population consider to be essential.

[Hydraboss]

Have you been brainwashed by the lying liberals and NDP?

Hardly. I fully supported Mulroney when he brought in this essential reform to our tax system. I critized the Liberal plan to scrap the tax in 1993 as well.

Bottom line: consumption taxes are good. income taxes are bad. People who think consumption taxes are worse than income taxes do not look at the big picture.

Incidently, there is no magic bullet that will reduce gov't spending much less than what it is today. There are some wasteful programs but cutting these would only bring in limited savings. The vast majority of public spending is on programs that the majority of the population consider to be essential.

Agreed and disagreed. Taxes are a reality. Consumption taxes are the closest thing we have to voluntary taxes. Don't want to pay the tax? Don't buy the item. There can always be exempt items...milk, bread, children's clothes.... Buy a $50,000 truck, pay $5,000 in taxes. Simple really.

Right now, I don't have the option of whether or not I pay income taxes, and right now I pay a huge amount. Flat income tax is a more fair way of distributing the burden. Consumption taxes make up the balance.

(And, no, I haven't changed my mind. Only the provinces should be collecting taxes.)

I do believe that HUGE savings could be realized by cutting uneccessary spending at all government levels.

[geoffrey]

Bottom line: consumption taxes are good. income taxes are bad. People who think consumption taxes are worse than income taxes do not look at the big picture.

They are very regressive in nature, rich people love VAT's... you don't pay anything on those massive investments and money pooling in your accounts.

[August1991]

Right now, I don't have the option of whether or not I pay income taxes...

Yes you do. You could stop working. And that makes about as much sense as your suggestion to avoid the GST by not buying stuff.

There is an argument in favour of the GST over income tax but it is not the one you make.

[Renegade]

Harper should raise the GST to 10% and bring in a flat tax.

Not only that, he should eliminate exemptions on the GST. When you say "flat tax", I assume you mean a flat income tax at lower rates. I agree.

[Renegade]

you don't pay anything on those massive investments and money pooling in your accounts.

While it is sitting in your investments and pooling in your account, it is doing something useful for society (ie investing in it). By taxing consumption, you are taxing at the time it realizes value to the individual. So consumption taxes don't exempt those with investments, they simply defer when they are applied.

[geoffrey]

you don't pay anything on those massive investments and money pooling in your accounts.

While it is sitting in your investments and pooling in your account, it is doing something useful for society (ie investing in it). By taxing consumption, you are taxing at the time it realizes value to the individual. So consumption taxes don't exempt those with investments, they simply defer when they are applied.

What about foreign investors drawing income in Canada? What about foreign workers drawing T4 income in Canada, but sending money home to be spent abroad?

[Topaz]

The real question is...how are we going to pay for this war, which the government is now expanding?? The government boost about paying the debit down but the debt will go up in time because of this war. Harper has ordered equipment that hasn't been paid for yet, but, will in the short term and then taxes will be going up or more social programs will be cut again. The minister of defense said the war will come out of the "general fund" where now excess IE funds go.

[Renegade]

What about foreign investors drawing income in Canada? What about foreign workers drawing T4 income in Canada, but sending money home to be spent abroad?

What of it? Tax is withheld from investment income in Canada earned by foreign investors so it is not like they completely avoid taxation. By keeping taxes on investment income low, it encourages foreign investors to keep investment funds in Canada. For foreign workers who spend that income abroad, why should they be taxed on those funds here? The percent of the money they send abroad, consumes foreign infrastructure so the taxes should be directed there.

I can equally ask, why is income earned abroad in the hands of Canadian residents taxed in Canada? Canada has done nothing to provide infrastructure enabling earning of that income.

[SamStranger]

It's so amusing when over-taxed citizens debate which taxes should be cut, and which should be raised...

Just because one tax is cut, why does another have to be raised? Well, it all comes back to spending. Its simple math. If you spend less, you can tax less. If we eliminate the GST by 2010, the 2011 fiscal year will probably have a roughly $40 billion dollar hole- that hole doesnt need to be filled by raising income tax, it can stay a hole. Just lower spending! Its so simple.

For anyone thats still confused Ill put it in simple terms:

If i have a jug of orange juice (entire budget) and theirs 5 glasses on the table (social programs, health care, millitary, all exspences... ect. ect.)

do I... A) Fill all 5 glasses and empty the jug (future deficeit)

B- Fill all 5 glasses halfway and have a bit left (surplus)

C) Pour some juice out- then fill 5 glasses 1/4 full (cut some taxes, lower spending)

D) Take away the 5th glass and fill the other 4 up (cut spending, eliminate the GST )

Now, after I cut spending (took away 5th glass) and abolished the GST

do I... A) Fill the Jug Back Up (raise other taxes, i.e. Income Tax)

B- Leave the Jug as it is, even if its halfway (keep spending low, so no tax hikes will be needed)

How did I do? Convinced?

[apollo19]

It's so amusing when over-taxed citizens debate which taxes should be cut, and which should be raised...

Just because one tax is cut, why does another have to be raised? Well, it all comes back to spending. Its simple math. If you spend less, you can tax less. If we eliminate the GST by 2010, the 2011 fiscal year will probably have a roughly $40 billion dollar hole- that hole doesnt need to be filled by raising income tax, it can stay a hole. Just lower spending! Its so simple.

You don't need to cut the GST specifically to achieve a $40 billion hole in the budget, so that forced spending cuts would be implemented. With respect to the original question, I am of the view that the GST should be raised, with income and corporate taxes cut accordingly. There is not a lack of spending in the economy, yet there is a problem with productivity and efficiency -- these should be the priorities in the time period looking towards 2010, not looking at how to increase spending in a country where so many young people are living off of credit and so many old boomers are sitting on mountains of savings.

[Renegade]

It's so amusing when over-taxed citizens debate which taxes should be cut, and which should be raised...

Sam, your explaination doesn't change the nature of the debate. Even if we accept that spending can be cut by the required amount, there is still a decision to be made on whether the amount saved should be applied to income tax cuts or the GST or potentially some other tax.

[SamStranger]

It's so amusing when over-taxed citizens debate which taxes should be cut, and which should be raised...

Sam, your explaination doesn't change the nature of the debate. Even if we accept that spending can be cut by the required amount, there is still a decision to be made on whether the amount saved should be applied to income tax cuts or the GST or potentially some other tax.

Your missing my point! Howcome when you mention cutting a certain tax, you automatically fire back with a tax hike!? Is it not possible to totally ABOLISH the GST, and not raise any taxes? Yes, it is possible- ill say it again- cut spending, so a $40 billion dollar hole remains a hole.

Now, I see your other point. Your saying to cut Income and Corporate Taxes aswell. Thats a good idea, but why would you suggest to raise the GST??? If we turn the table, and say it costs $50 billion to cut Income and Corporate Taxes- why do we have to fill the hole by raising the GST? Lets just leave the hole, and cut spending. Thats the (REAL) Conservative way.

ps: Ive come to realize that the Tories in Britain are much more fiscally conservative than here.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

WE need to convert to a fair tax system. The only definition of a fair tax is one that is equally applied. To that end a system of taxation needs to be created that provides a sufficient revenue stream for the government to pay for existing programs and debt repayment while at the same time being made equal in cost to all tax payers. Since there are two categories of tax payers; business and personal, any new system must be applicable to both.

In my opinion the first consideration should be the application of taxation. Some things need to be considered exempt from taxation, those things can be described as basic needs. The government ought not to impose tax on basic needs because this has a detrimental impact to the least affluent of citizens. That impact would comprimise the ability of the citizen to acquire basic needs and therefore a floor must be designed in which a citizen can acquire the goods and services necessary to sustain their basic needs.

The second consideration should in my opinion should be the level of taxation. The government ought not to be able to levy taxes without cause and therefore budgets need to be designed to provide cause. In this type of environment nether surplus nor deficit can be considered normal or acceptable. Contained within each budget must be a levy sufficient to cover a large unplanned expenditure equal to the historical record one time expenditure. If this is not required by the end of the fiscal year those funds ought to be utilized to pay down the national debt. The balance of the budget must be sufficient to cover all normal operating expenses of government without addition. The level of taxation applied to the tax payer is then equal to the budget divided by the number of tax payers, that number provides a personal tax load. The means that the government must use to acquire those sufficient funds to operate society is absolutely key to the success of the endeavour.

To date the most successful means of tax collecting has been the GST. The government spends very little to collect these funds unlike their costs to collect income taxes which are extensive. Using this model makes the most sense then. That in turn dictates a system of taxation that is based upon transactions and not income, it is not personal just business. This system is completely blind in its application.

A fair tax system that provides for the equal application to all citizens is a desireable an achieveable goal.