We pay while Indians live in luxury

[charter.rights]

Let me be clear you racist idiot, the time has come to face reality. Your race is no longer discriminated against, mine is. Add to that point my sex is now being discriminated against as well. The "white man" is treated as pond scum and moved to the bottom of the pile. That is simply legal discrimination, as is the entire concept of affirmative action. It is wrong, and in my opinion it should be stopped.

The right thing to do is make qualifications and opportunity blind to both race and sex to make an even foundation. That is what the law should do, protect individual rights.

In my opinion rights apply to all, not any specific group because when you enact legislation in that manner you in fact create privilege instead of rights. That is where we are going wrong here!

People of First Nations deserve no more and no less than any other person in this country. The entire concept of doing anything else in in way shape or form is disgusting to me. Yet some here believe otherwise, and for them their ways seem to be superior. I believe that to be a racist attitude.

I must repeat that no citizen in this country should have any more right than another. The concept that natives of the First Nations group should be entitled to own land when no other citizen in this country has that legal right is immoral and fundamentally flawed in my opinion. That is the basis of my argument, the flawed constitutional document that we now have divests all other citizens of this right while it protects the land already in possession of First Nations and leaves the door open for even greater gains for these people while ignoring the rights of the rest of the citizens.

Do I think that natives have been wronged at some point in history, yes. Yet that does not mean that the proper solution to that problem is to punish everyone else forever. It does not mean that this nation should go belly up or kowtow to this group or any other specific group of citizens. It does mean that ALL citizens should have equal rights. I favour native self government, I honestly view that as a form of municipal government nothing more or less. As such they would be granted no more and no less than any other group of Canadian citizens. In my view that is the proper way to seek resolution to the current problem. The entire concept of giving away huge tracts of land is foolish. Enough land to set up and operate a municipality where they can govern themselves is sufficient. As far as hunting and fishing rights go, I believe they already have the right to hunt on crown land and that is sufficient so there is no requirement for lands for this purpose. I truly do want a resolution to the problems we face, yet I am unable to simply give away the farm, not at the expense of others.

POP! Goes the weasel.....

No. Us white guys are not discriminated against. People like you only think we are because the balance of power has shifted and you no longer call the shots!

[Who's Doing What?]

POP! Goes the weasel.....

No. Us white guys are not discriminated against. People like you only think we are because the balance of power has shifted and you no longer call the shots!

Are you blind???

Affirmative action, is just a fancy way of being discriminatory.

[charter.rights]

Are you blind???

Affirmative action, is just a fancy way of being discriminatory.

There is justification in tipping the scales in the favour of minorities in order to restore an egalitarian system. However, the complaints of most Anglo-Saxon white males is one of losing power, not competing on an equal basis for the same jobs. Remove the white male interviewers and replace them with non-white females and it becomes clear that white male privilege was behind most failures of women and brown people to advance within tight corporate and government workplaces.

[DangerMouse]

I've heard that white people are not allowed to take pride in their own race otherwise they be labeled as racist. Also I heard that it appears that whites are systemicly made to feel guilty about their skin colour so resort to taking pride in others race(s) instead of their own.

I could be hearing the wrong things, that's just what I've heard from regular people.

So if he/she throws a spear and uses a bow and arrow; canoes and kayaks; catches salmon and hunts does that mean they are assimilated as aboriginal people and therefore the aboriginal culture is alive and well? Or, does that mean they are recreationalists?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Hey Danger Mouse, good points! I would have to say that the person would be an outdoors person. Lots of those folks around isn't there! I have no problem with those kind of activities at all, probably because that is right up my alley. I hunt with a camera, but I love to fish.

Natives have the opportunity to enjoy these things as much as the next person. I like outdoors folks, they are my kind of people. However I don't like affirmative action, can't say that I like much of the special rights crowd, be they corporate or political or even environmental types. I believe in equality and individual rights and certainly don't have much use for group rights to much extent at all. The individual is the key, and many of them together make society possible. Yet none of them need society to be individuals, if you follow my meaning.

[DangerMouse]

Hey Danger Mouse, good points! I would have to say that the person would be an outdoors person. Lots of those folks around isn't there! I have no problem with those kind of activities at all, probably because that is right up my alley. I hunt with a camera, but I love to fish.

Natives have the opportunity to enjoy these things as much as the next person. I like outdoors folks, they are my kind of people. However I don't like affirmative action, can't say that I like much of the special rights crowd, be they corporate or political or even environmental types. I believe in equality and individual rights and certainly don't have much use for group rights to much extent at all. The individual is the key, and many of them together make society possible. Yet none of them need society to be individuals, if you follow my meaning.

The thing I find amazing is that all the laws were written by whites. Right from the Royal proclamation of 1763 to BNA to the Indian Act! And all the tax laws to boot! SO why are there people in our society that outright hate the indians over white laws? Man that is sick and dozie. In some cases aboriginal people are subject to racism that involves hatred and in extreme cases murder. To those that don't see it--get it through your thick skull that all the laws were written by whites

[WIP]

There is justification in tipping the scales in the favour of minorities in order to restore an egalitarian system. However, the complaints of most Anglo-Saxon white males is one of losing power, not competing on an equal basis for the same jobs.

I've long had a feeling that the complaints of reverse discrimination are rooted in the fear of loss of privilege. If one group (white, english speaking men) has become comfortable being in charge, then reforms intended to assist women and minorities are viewed as attacks on white males.

Remove the white male interviewers and replace them with non-white females and it becomes clear that white male privilege was behind most failures of women and brown people to advance within tight corporate and government workplaces.

At work, we've had an example of how difficult it is to stop a manager from deliberately discriminating against people they don't like. In brief, it was noticed by South Asian employees that since the time our Human Resources manager(who was recently fired) assumed her position about four years ago, no Indians or Pakistanis have been hired, and the ones working for the company who have applied for promotions, have all been denied.

When the union filed a grievance and wanted her hiring methods examined, she had a record of plausible reasons (at least in the eyes of upper management) for every decision she made, so nothing happened - until the smoking gun was found recently in the form of an email that was sent to the wrong inbox, where she confided to a friend that as long as she was in charge of H.R., no "turbanheads" would get through the door!

And that's the problem with claims of having a colour-blind society. If someone is discreet, they can discriminate freely without any proof that there is any misconduct.

[jbg]

There is justification in tipping the scales in the favour of minorities in order to restore an egalitarian system. However, the complaints of most Anglo-Saxon white males is one of losing power, not competing on an equal basis for the same jobs.

The problem with that theory is that the "minority" group members that advance under affirmative action are most likely ones that would have done fairly well anyway. Another problem is that the people themselves that suffered discrimination are not receiving redress but only those who share their skin color. Hardly sensible.

Remove the white male interviewers and replace them with non-white females and it becomes clear that white male privilege was behind most failures of women and brown people to advance within tight corporate and government workplaces.

No, you are replacing one discrmination with another.

[Zachary Young]

The policy of welfare payments based on race is (needless to say) racist and should be ended immediately. No more taxpayer's money going to Native Americans - but as a compromise we should allow anyone with a status card exemption from all taxes for life.

[charter.rights]

The policy of welfare payments based on race is (needless to say) racist and should be ended immediately. No more taxpayer's money going to Native Americans - but as a compromise we should allow anyone with a status card exemption from all taxes for life.

There is no such policy, nor are welfare payments offered based on race. Welfare is need driven, simple and clear.

[Zachary Young]

There is no such policy, nor are welfare payments offered based on race. Welfare is need driven, simple and clear.

You are sadly mistaken sir, there is some ten billion in welfare given to Native Americans every year - and of course this is based on their race, as it is given specifically to Native Americans. You seem to have confused my use of the word welfare. Welfare can refer not only to 'the dole' but also to government social programs i.e. 'the welfare state'.

As for welfare (in the context you are using it) being 'need' driven, that is very idealistic and all, but my last two room mates, young able bodied 28 year old men who enjoyed drinking and smoking pot more than working (as do I! but I'm far too idealistic to ever go on the dole) are proof that this is not the case, as does the group of fourty year old crack heads with which I used to hang (don't ask). All of them were recipients of welfare, all of them could work. It is 'need based' in the sense that it is based on whatever bullshit you can pretend you need.

[DangerMouse]

You are sadly mistaken sir, there is some ten billion in welfare given to Native Americans every year - and of course this is based on their race, as it is given specifically to Native Americans. You seem to have confused my use of the word welfare. Welfare can refer not only to 'the dole' but also to government social programs i.e. 'the welfare state'.

As for welfare (in the context you are using it) being 'need' driven, that is very idealistic and all, but my last two room mates, young able bodied 28 year old men who enjoyed drinking and smoking pot more than working (as do I! but I'm far too idealistic to ever go on the dole) are proof that this is not the case, as does the group of fourty year old crack heads with which I used to hang (don't ask). All of them were recipients of welfare, all of them could work. It is 'need based' in the sense that it is based on whatever bullshit you can pretend you need.

Some of the people on welfare really need it! Of course there is the elements that just ride the system. I know this non-native guy who has been on welfare for years...it's his only option....you bring up alcohol...many in our society don't even realize it but it is one way for the government to get the money back, and I've heard the term "SIN-TAX" used. Ironically, they'll take the $$$ generated from booze, gambling, and cigarettes, and pay the cops wages as one example. We live in a nutty world and Zachary it's not worth it to get hung up on all the BS! Be happy and you'll be a lot better off

[Zachary Young]

Some of the people on welfare really need it! Of course there is the elements that just ride the system. I know this non-native guy who has been on welfare for years...it's his only option....you bring up alcohol...many in our society don't even realize it but it is one way for the government to get the money back, and I've heard the term "SIN-TAX" used. Ironically, they'll take the $$$ generated from booze, gambling, and cigarettes, and pay the cops wages as one example. We live in a nutty world and Zachary it's not worth it to get hung up on all the BS! Be happy and you'll be a lot better off

I agree with you, some people on welfare need help - although I disagree with the implicit statement that they could not get the help they need from the private sector. My mother was a case study in successes in welfare - a single mother, raising three kids. She didn't drink, do drugs, buy fancy clothing... but she did raise her kids, and I guess I'm a little biased but I think she did a great job. The system worked for her. For every success story like that, there are a dozen failures. Another alcoholic who's cheque buys him his beer, another drug user who's cheque bought him an eight ball. I know because I've partied with them.

Your last bit of advice is very solid. I take politics very seriously, but I am a happy person over all - I guess that might not always come across when I am debating

[charter.rights]

You are sadly mistaken sir, there is some ten billion in welfare given to Native Americans every year - and of course this is based on their race, as it is given specifically to Native Americans. You seem to have confused my use of the word welfare. Welfare can refer not only to 'the dole' but also to government social programs i.e. 'the welfare state'.

As for welfare (in the context you are using it) being 'need' driven, that is very idealistic and all, but my last two room mates, young able bodied 28 year old men who enjoyed drinking and smoking pot more than working (as do I! but I'm far too idealistic to ever go on the dole) are proof that this is not the case, as does the group of fourty year old crack heads with which I used to hang (don't ask). All of them were recipients of welfare, all of them could work. It is 'need based' in the sense that it is based on whatever bullshit you can pretend you need.

Nope. You're still wrong. $10 billion (actually it is $8 billion) is the civil service budget of Indian Affairs. $5 billion gets gobbled up in salaries and internal programs. $3 billion is transferred to band governments to pay for things like roads, education, health and band administration. We've already been over these figures an number of times. In transfers from the federal government it adds up to about $1600 per person per year to fund all on-reserve programs. That's just 10% we receive as transfers for our cities from our provincial funders. Last year Six Nations' industries submitted $120 million in excise taxes and their total transfer from the federal government was just over $36 million. By those ratios, it seems that Six Nations is supporting us, not the other way around.

Edited April 20, 2008 by charter.rights

[Wilber]

Last year Six Nations' industries submitted $120 million in excise taxes and their total transfer from the federal government was just over $36 million. By those ratios, it seems that Six Nations is supporting us, not the other way around.

Did they not pass those taxes on to their customers? If so that is like saying the store is paying GST.

[charter.rights]

Did they not pass those taxes on to their customers? If so that is like saying the store is paying GST.

All taxes are eventually passed on to the customer. Income taxes are paid by the company on behalf of the employee. However the salaries that generate that income are passed on to the customer in the price of the product or service. We pay GST but so do the stores when they purchase goods and while they may receive a rebate, the cost of the GST initially gets included in the price of the product.

So what's your point? Nothing, I see.......

[Wilber]

All taxes are eventually passed on to the customer. Income taxes are paid by the company on behalf of the employee. However the salaries that generate that income are passed on to the customer in the price of the product or service. We pay GST but so do the stores when they purchase goods and while they may receive a rebate, the cost of the GST initially gets included in the price of the product.

So what's your point? Nothing, I see.......

My point is that business's are tax collectors for the government, it is not their money. To claim that six nations business's are somehow different from other business's in this respect is dishonest.

[charter.rights]

My point is that business's are tax collectors for the government, it is not their money. To claim that six nations business's are somehow different from other business's in this respect is dishonest.

I never made that claim. The claim I did make was that Six Nations is paying more than their share in taxes and getting only 30% back for operation costs. If we add in the Six Nations trust account worth over $1 trillion alone, the interest on said account basically supports all First Nations across Canada, not us and not our tax money. That is without even considering the royalties that should be paid on resources being extracted from First Nations territories without their consent. We'll save that for another day, though.

If you want to look at welfare then perhaps you should target the Armed Forces, and other corporate entities sucking our tax dollars into the rubbish bin. Subsidies and grants, along with the Armed Forces is a colossal waste of our tax dollars. But then again.....taxes don't belong to us. They belong to the Corporation of Canada to do with what they see fit. We have absolutely no say in that.

Say did you realize that the civil service budget is about $120 billion a year (not including defense spending)?

[Who's Doing What?]

I never made that claim. The claim I did make was that Six Nations is paying more than their share in taxes and getting only 30% back for operation costs. If we add in the Six Nations trust account worth over $1 trillion alone, the interest on said account basically supports all First Nations across Canada, not us and not our tax money. That is without even considering the royalties that should be paid on resources being extracted from First Nations territories without their consent. We'll save that for another day, though.

If you want to look at welfare then perhaps you should target the Armed Forces, and other corporate entities sucking our tax dollars into the rubbish bin. Subsidies and grants, along with the Armed Forces is a colossal waste of our tax dollars. But then again.....taxes don't belong to us. They belong to the Corporation of Canada to do with what they see fit. We have absolutely no say in that.

Say did you realize that the civil service budget is about $120 billion a year (not including defense spending)?

Try re-reading Wilbur's post five or six times and see if his point starts to sink in.

[DangerMouse]

My point is that business's are tax collectors for the government, it is not their money. To claim that six nations business's are somehow different from other business's in this respect is dishonest.

Who wrote those tax laws you freakin bozo? Dishonest! When are you thickheaded clowns going to realize that all the laws, policies and acts were all written by non-natives boneheads like you and to give indians heck over it is childish

[Zachary Young]

"Last year Six Nations' industries submitted $120 million in excise taxes and their total transfer from the federal government was just over $36 million. By those ratios, it seems that Six Nations is supporting us, not the other way around."

Good then, let's abolish the entire budget of Indian Affairs immediately, if we're only giving them $36 million and it's costing us $10 billion.

[Wilber]

The biggest problem with this whole business is that there is no accountability. Tax payers see billions of their money disappearing and are not allowed to see where it goes so they assume there is major abuse, because there very likely is whenever there is no accountability. Make this subject to the Auditor General's scrutiny. If there is abuse, it can be dealt with, if there isn't, the critics will have less to bitch about.

[Riverwind]

Last year Six Nations' industries submitted $120 million in excise taxes and their total transfer from the federal government was just over $36 million. By those ratios, it seems that Six Nations is supporting us, not the other way around.

Excise taxes are paid by the buyers - not the company. You cannot include excise taxes paid by off reserve purchasers of six nations cigarettes as 'taxes paid by six nations'. It is just like GST.

A business that tried to claim that excise taxes were part of its income would be charged with accounting fraud.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Riverwind

[jbg]

Some of the people on welfare really need it! Of course there is the elements that just ride the system. I know this non-native guy who has been on welfare for years...it's his only option....you bring up alcohol...many in our society don't even realize it but it is one way for the government to get the money back, and I've heard the term "SIN-TAX" used. Ironically, they'll take the $$$ generated from booze, gambling, and cigarettes, and pay the cops wages as one example. We live in a nutty world and Zachary it's not worth it to get hung up on all the BS! Be happy and you'll be a lot better off

That's inane. Welfare can be time-limited so that people on alchohol can get off in order to work productively. And as far as people with children, people who can't afford to raise children should spend less time making them.

[Wilber]

Who wrote those tax laws you freakin bozo? Dishonest! When are you thickheaded clowns going to realize that all the laws, policies and acts were all written by non-natives boneheads like you and to give indians heck over it is childish

When are you thick headed clowns going to realize that money your business's collect for government isn't your income anymore than it is any other business's?