We pay while Indians live in luxury

[DogOnPorch]

So what does this prove Dogonporch other than the Natives were fighting to keep their land, is that wrong?

Read the book...it isn't that simple. Never is. Try your local library.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Douglas_(governor)

Edited October 19, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[jefferiah]

Right on Posit, I have heard more garbage cited as Common Sense than I care to remember. I have heard it used to maintain and control lots of situations.

The Controllers?

[margrace]

Read the book...it isn't that simple. Never is. Try your local library.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Douglas_(governor)

Tsk Tsk sarcasm, I retired from my job, I was a librarian. Have you read E. Pauline Johnston?

[M.Dancer]

In elementary.....

[margrace]

In elementary.....

Oh oh the bullys back.

[M.Dancer]

Oh oh the bullys back.

Being a librarian you would know all about the apostrophe and plagiarism.....

[jefferiah]

Right on Posit, I have heard more garbage cited as Common Sense than I care to remember. I have heard it used to maintain and control lots of situations.

Great. Now explain to me how if someone uses the term Indian once in a while, which is still present in cultural memory, how it is an intended insult?

An insult is a deagradation of someone's character right. So when someone calls a native an "Indian" what is the insulting meaning implied?

And even more than this I would like you to explain how the fact that I think getting upset over the term Indian is basically an example of fishing for something to be upset over translates to my trying to maintain and control a situation? What am I trying to control?

[margrace]

Great. Now explain to me how if someone uses the term Indian once in a while, which is still present in cultural memory, how it is an intended insult?

An insult is a deagradation of someone's character right. So when someone calls a native an "Indian" what is the insulting meaning implied?

And even more than this I would like you to explain how the fact that I think getting upset over the term Indian is basically an example of fishing for something to be upset over translates to my trying to maintain and control a situation? What am I trying to control?

What????? I don't remember being involved in the "Indian" discussion but if I was I am sure you will enlighten me.

[jefferiah]

What????? I don't remember being involved in the "Indian" discussion but if I was I am sure you will enlighten me.

Well since you replied to Posit's post which was a reply to my own (concerning this Indian topic) I assumed you were taking his side in the debate. That's my mistake then Margrace, but a natural one don't you think.

[jennie]

Great. Now explain to me how if someone uses the term Indian once in a while, which is still present in cultural memory, how it is an intended insult?

An insult is a deagradation of someone's character right. So when someone calls a native an "Indian" what is the insulting meaning implied?

And even more than this I would like you to explain how the fact that I think getting upset over the term Indian is basically an example of fishing for something to be upset over translates to my trying to maintain and control a situation? What am I trying to control?

Cripes are you still defending yourself about that?

It is inappropriate because it was a dumb Euro mistake in the first place, and it is a label assigned by their oppressors.

It is inappropriate because they say so.

And because we have many citizens who truly are India-n

Is this the first time you have been told that it is not appropriate?

[jefferiah]

Cripes are you still defending yourself about that?

It is inappropriate because it was a dumb Euro mistake in the first place, and it is a label assigned by their oppressors.

So when I am called "English" which is a mistake then it is also a terrible offense?

How does the fact that it is a mistake make it an insult? You still haven't explained the implied insult.

[margrace]

So when I am called "English" which is a mistake then it is also a terrible offense?

How does the fact that it is a mistake make it an insult? You still haven't explained the implied insult.

OOOOH Boy

[jennie]

Because they said so. -end-

[AngusThermopyle]

So I suppose all the bumper stickers referring to "Whitey" are appropriate? And all the times I've walked down the street in this little town and heard the same word from Native mouths were appropriate?

The fact is that saying Indian can quite often be an honest slip or mistake. I don't think the "Whitey" thing can be seen in the same light, not by any stretch of the imagination. Respect is a commodity to be earned, not automatically granted. Didn't you know that?

Actually my friend makes a very pointed distinction between Indians and Natives. He's one of the Daychiefs, a very large familly around here. He go's to school and is on track to join the RCMP, he considers himself to be a Native. In his own words he can't be Indian because he's not a drunk lazy bum, he works and is bettering himself. These are some of the reasons I have a great deal of respect for him.

I never knew this distinction existed until he and others pointed it out to me. Some of them have been Daychiefs, some Bigbears, etc etc. I think you get the picture.

[DogOnPorch]

Tsk Tsk sarcasm, I retired from my job, I was a librarian. Have you read E. Pauline Johnston? (sic)

Sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic...I don't think the book is online so I recommend trying a library. As for Pauline Johnson...you bet. I have a first edition copy of her book Legends of Vancouver. Bound in cowhide with a hand painted cover. Every time I see Siwash Rock I think of her.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

And on the mountain crest the chief's daughters can be seen wrapped in the suns, the snows, the stars of all seasons, for they have stood in this high place for thousands of years, and will stand for thousands of years to come, guarding the peace of the Pacific Coast and the quiet of the Capilano Canyon.

---E Pauline Johnson: The Two Sisters

Edited October 19, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[jefferiah]

OOOOH Boy

Wow. What an argument!

What is insulting about the term Indian? What is the implied meaning?

Edited October 20, 2007 by jefferiah

[jennie]

Wow. What an argument!

What is insulting about the term Indian? What is the implied meaning?

It is just the wrong name! And it was imposed on them by Canada.

It would be like if I insisted on continually calling you a "Yankee" assuming you are Canadian.

It is just dumb. They are not from India.

[jefferiah]

It is just the wrong name! And it was imposed on them by Canada.

It would be like if I insisted on continually calling you a "Yankee" assuming you are Canadian.

It is just dumb. They are not from India.

I am Canadian. Go ahead and call me Yankee. Do you think that is a huge offense?

I am not from England. Some people might call me English.

Edited October 20, 2007 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

It is just the wrong name! And it was imposed on them by Canada.

It would be like if I insisted on continually calling you a "Yankee" assuming you are Canadian.

It is just dumb. They are not from India.

But you do understand that it has been in the cultural dictionary for a long time, and with no intended offensive meaning either, right?

So sometimes people are still going to say it. And they don't mean anything bad by it. Do you think that is an outrage? I know a few small towns that changed their names quite some time ago when they amalgamated. Many people still call those areas by their old names. It sticks.

[jennie]

But you do understand that it has been in the cultural dictionary for a long time, and with no intended offensive meaning either, right?

So sometimes people are still going to say it. And they don't mean anything bad by it. Do you think that is an outrage? I know a few small towns that changed their names quite some time ago when they amalgamated. Many people still call those areas by their old names. It sticks.

I think it is important for everyone to eventually become aware that it isn't appreciated. As with the 'n' word, if they choose to apply it to themselves, usually in fun, that's their choice. However, it isn't appropriate for others to use it to or about them.

The correct term is Indigenous Peoples or people or person, etc. Many urban people call themselves Native so that seems acceptable still. However, there is always some aho around to screech "I have lived here all my life so I am NATIVE too!"

It is just about respect. We are all entitled to be called what we prefer, as a matter of respect.

Got it now, li'l jeffie Yank? jk

Edited October 20, 2007 by jennie

[jefferiah]

It is just about respect. We are all entitled to be called what we prefer, as a matter of respect.

Got it now, li'l jeffie Yank? jk

I disagree. No one is entitled to have power over another person's mouth. We are entitled to have a preference.

For instance people who do not believe in abortion call themselves "pro-life". But if a feminist writes a newspaper article she has a right to call them "anti-choice". It may be a shallow misrepresentation on her part, but she still has that right.

Edited October 20, 2007 by jefferiah

[jennie]

I disagree. No one is entitled to have power over another person's mouth. We are entitled to have a preference.

For instance people who do not believe in abortion call themselves "pro-life". But if a feminist writes a newspaper article she has a right to call them "anti-choice". It may be a shallow misrepresentation on her part, but she still has that right.

That is not quite the same as intentionally making an incorrect reference to someone's cultural group or race, normally known as an 'ethnic slur'.

I am not denying your right to say whatever you want so long as you are not promoting hatred or inciting a riot or any of those illegal things. I am just alerting you to the fact that your choice of terminology is pretty outdated for a young person like you, which suggests you are using it in a derogatory way since you know it isn't desirable. And you will find that some people (like me) will correct you, and others will just avoid you because of your uncouth behaviour, and that is your choice to make.

In other words, yes you have the 'right' to pretend ignorance and disrespect Indigenous Peoples, and I have the right to tell you so: Because you have the right to say it does not mean that others have to accept it. You take the social consequences of talking like a dweeb.

[jefferiah]

That is not quite the same as intentionally making an incorrect reference to someone's cultural group or race, normally known as an 'ethnic slur'.

It is certainly not the same. My example is actually a worse insult.

Allow me to explain.

A slur is usually something insulting. Indian is not intentionally insulting. There is no implied or intended insult when someone calls a native an Indian. It is just a name we know them by. It does not mean a person of bad or good character. And it is certainly not comparable to "nigger" because people do not mean it in the bad way they usually do when this term is used.

Calling a pro-lifer anti-choice is a direct attempt at an insult. It subverts the pro-life meaning to make it sound as if they are actually against women's rights.

Edited October 20, 2007 by jefferiah

[kengs333]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.prairienet.org/prairienations/race.htm

I wonder how many of these terms are still used, despite the fact that they no longer apply to Europeans or mischaracterize them. Also, I wonder how many of these terms referring to physical features had derogatory connotations.

[jbg]

Calling a pro-lifer anti-choice is a direct attempt at an insult. It subverts the pro-life meaning to make it sound as if they are actually against women's rights.

I jokingly used to call "pro-lifers" "coat hanger artists". That is a bit extreme, though it demonstrates one of my reason for keeping abortion legal; people in desperate financial and, yes, social situations will get them anyway. A distant deceased relative made a fortune during the 1950's and 1960's on illegal abortions in New York and New Jersey. He was decidedly not a nice person.