We pay while Indians live in luxury

[White Doors]

So now Europeans are a disease?

If one were to call anyone else besides Europeans a 'disease' surely they would be banned, but it is ok to be a filthy racist when you are being racist against whites?

What is this garbage and why is it tolerated?

Therefore we only need to point to the colonization of a place by Europeans (since they are the most prevalent disease).....

Why is this acceptable?

[DangerMouse]

So now Europeans are a disease?

If one were to call anyone else besides Europeans a 'disease' surely they would be banned, but it is ok to be a filthy racist when you are being racist against whites?

What is this garbage and why is it tolerated?

Why is this acceptable?

Well they did jump off the boats and spread their diseases to millions of aboriginal people...yes gentle caucasian reader--great gramm and pappa were murderers

[AngusThermopyle]

Well they did jump off the boats and spread their diseases to millions of aboriginal people...yes gentle caucasian reader--great gramm and pappa were murderers

So inaccurate and untrue that it isn't even worth consideration, as usual.

[White Doors]

Well they did jump off the boats and spread their diseases to millions of aboriginal people...yes gentle caucasian reader--great gramm and pappa were murderers

why the need for insults? Do you think being racist and casting insults is the way to go?

Don't you have anything concrete and factual to say?

[Rue]

64 pages later and we have someone allegedly native engaged in a moral debate as to whether he has more of a claim to Canada then a Jew does Israel? This is what it comes down to?

A true aborginal would never insult his own heritage and ways questioning the spiritual link of a Hebrew to Israel and speak of it using the exact same reference non native Canadians use to deny the aboriginal peoples as a collective indentity with a spiritual link that predeceases those Canadians of other ancestry.

This has become nothing more then an exchange of intolerance.

Grow the f..ck up all of you spewing these intolerances.

Here is the point. Aboriginal people have a spiritual collective and a spiritual link to the land which predeceases the cultures of Canadians who came after. Part of that is now recognized in legal treaties the Canadian confederation agreed to recognize.

Hebrews have a spiritual link to the land of Israel no different then aboriginals may have with North America or any other land. It is absolutely no different.

To suggest Moses is a colonizer who invaded Israel is as idiotic as saying the aboriginal peoples who came across the Bering Straight invaded Canada.

The point is Palestinians and Israelis have equally as valid claims. The point is Jews, Christians and Muslims have equally as valid claims in the Middle East.

The fact is we define all peoples in Canada, aboriginal, French, English, European, what-ever entitled to the same fundamental rights of respect and dignity.

The point is any of you who forget you are a human first and what-ever else the f..ck you are second means you have lost touch with the most basic rules of nature.

Your collective identity is no excuse to hate, and use it as a weapon to allege superiority whether that be moral, political, religious, cultural or what-ever.

Now shut the f..ck up and get along from where I sit you are all a bunch of jibbering primates sticking out your inflammed buttoxes at each other.

try behave like whales for a change.

[AngusThermopyle]

try behave like whales for a change.

Thats no fun, Whales don't have inflamed buttocks to stick out at each other.

[JCAN]

64 pages later and we have someone allegedly native engaged in a moral debate as to whether he has more of a claim to Canada then a Jew does Israel? This is what it comes down to?

A true aborginal would never insult his own heritage and ways questioning the spiritual link of a Hebrew to Israel and speak of it using the exact same reference non native Canadians use to deny the aboriginal peoples as a collective indentity with a spiritual link that predeceases those Canadians of other ancestry.

This has become nothing more then an exchange of intolerance.

Grow the f..ck up all of you spewing these intolerances.

Here is the point. Aboriginal people have a spiritual collective and a spiritual link to the land which predeceases the cultures of Canadians who came after. Part of that is now recognized in legal treaties the Canadian confederation agreed to recognize.

Hebrews have a spiritual link to the land of Israel no different then aboriginals may have with North America or any other land. It is absolutely no different.

To suggest Moses is a colonizer who invaded Israel is as idiotic as saying the aboriginal peoples who came across the Bering Straight invaded Canada.

The point is Palestinians and Israelis have equally as valid claims. The point is Jews, Christians and Muslims have equally as valid claims in the Middle East.

The fact is we define all peoples in Canada, aboriginal, French, English, European, what-ever entitled to the same fundamental rights of respect and dignity.

The point is any of you who forget you are a human first and what-ever else the f..ck you are second means you have lost touch with the most basic rules of nature.

Your collective identity is no excuse to hate, and use it as a weapon to allege superiority whether that be moral, political, religious, cultural or what-ever.

Now shut the f..ck up and get along from where I sit you are all a bunch of jibbering primates sticking out your inflammed buttoxes at each other.

try behave like whales for a change.

Whales, primates, monkeys, or humans it does not matter neither does the spiritual connection to this land or any other. Moses, Jesus or any other person in history you want to name has no good original claim for their land either. I do not care what country it is the only one you can link to all of us is Africa because that is where all our ancestors started out from anything past that is a migration invasion or immigration of some sort so all other arguments about some special link to any other land is crap.

Every nation on this planet has been conquered by another at one time and every one of the treaties put in place at the time has been broken as well it did not just happen to the the natives.

If you want every one to get along then all will have to be treated equally not give one segment special rights or deal with them in a sensitive manor for they might put up a blockade, if any one else tried that in Canada they would be knocked down and hauled away. and if you don't think so I suggest you get some friends and try.

quit trying to be idealistic and get back to reality this situation is not so simple and it will not be solved simply by holding hands and complementing each other their is heavy resentment by a lot of the populace because it is not just the Europeans supporting them it is every other race that has immigrated here since and the Asian and Africans had no part in the taking of this land.

So in answer Shut up and go f@$k the whales you are so fond of.

[NativeCharm]

WOW.

Long time, same stuff. Think we might actually be getting somewhere?

I sure missed everyone.

Love the title of the thread btw. Hah, THAT is the kind of nonsense that leads to stereotyping. Im thinking its time to start a REAL thread, just wish we could pre qualify the posters.

Please, carry on. I'm only here to observe for a couple days and if anyone wants to pick a fight with me, Ill be over there watching the "lets keep the thread focused show". JK! Popcorn anyone?

[Smallc]

Six Nations have been here in Canada / Ontario for more than 1000 years. They were known as the Northern Iroquois and were Confederacy Nations of Mohawk, Seneca and Cayuga. They expanded their territory in the early 1600's (over 100 years before the British arrived) to include areas as far north as the Ottawa River, Lake Nippissing, Lake Huron and all points south.

No lands in Canada were won by the British or any other colonizer. You'll find that the legal possession of land is underwritten by the very treaties and agreements protected under the Royal Proclamation 1763. In doing so the Natives exercised their right to continuous possession even after the settlement began.

Native society is communistic by nature..... Another incredible ignorant opinion devoid of the facts. Six Nations holds the longest running democracy on earth. Even today as liberal a society we believe we live in, we still haven't achieved the kind of participatory democracy that the Confederacy guarded when our forefathers first stepped off their boats. And just to make the fact complete, the British peasants who arrived here came from oppressive monarchies full of poor hygiene related diseases and poor hygiene habits that saw them bath but once a year and drink beer and wine because they had pissed and crapped in their drinking water so much it was polluted beyond recovery. Even a simple illness like scurvy might have killed them if not for the medicinal knowledge of First Nations.

I would suggest that you read a book. Your thinking about this kind of stuff and forming ignorant opinions really doesn't make good discussion...even though it gives us tremendous entertainment value, laughing our asses off at you.

I don't know if this has been brought up to you yet, but there is one thing that really negates most things you say.

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

Rights and freedoms in Canada 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Smallc

[charter.rights]

I don't know if this has been brought up to you yet, but there is one thing that really negates most things you say.

Maybe you should read the part where it says:

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

and,

PART II

RIGHTS OF THE ABORIGINAL PEOPLES OF CANADA

35. (1) The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.

(2) In this Act, "aboriginal peoples of Canada" includes the Indian, Inuit, and Metis peoples of Canada.

(3) For greater certainty, in subsection (1) "treaty rights" includes rights that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired.

(4) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, the aboriginal and treaty rights referred to in subsection (1) are guaranteed equally to male and female persons.(17)

That kills any argument that we can ignore treaties, the Royal Proclamation1763, or pre-existing aboriginal rights.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I can't believe that this thread is still alive! Lets solve this once and forever, give the First Nation folks sovereignty on their existing lands and cut them off the tax payers money. Let them govern themselves in the manner they desire, since we seem to be doing such a lousy job of it.

[Wild Bill]

I can't believe that this thread is still alive! Lets solve this once and forever, give the First Nation folks sovereignty on their existing lands and cut them off the tax payers money. Let them govern themselves in the manner they desire, since we seem to be doing such a lousy job of it.

You've put your finger on the heart of the argument. It's important to remember that not all bands/natives are the same but there ARE some natives and some bands that live a lifestyle that is not self-sustaining. They survive on government money and believe that due to history they are entitled to it. The amazing thing is that if the white man ever pulled out and left them they would likely starve.

This is also what causes the lack of respect and resentment of taxes from the non-native community. Sadly, they are often making the mistake of thinking that every native and every band is like this. It's a generalization and like all generalizations it's not true, including this one!

We did it to them by setting up a reserve system of welfare in the first place. Then we allowed social engineers full of socialist claptrap to use native communities as their personal political laboratory. Is it any surprise that we see so many things that cannot survive without "free" money pumped in? Imagine a couple of centuries of a system run by David Miller, the mayor of Toronto.

I don't have a magic solution but when you're in a hole the first step is to stop digging. Paying huge settlements would be proven by future history to be a waste. What happens when the money is eventually gone? Yes, some bands will be sensible with it but they are not the problem. We'll still have to deal with those that are left.

It all starts with individual choices. We don't really have much choice about the cards that life deals us but we have total choice with how we play them.

In too many cases the Indian Act and its bureaucracy is just one big "enabler".

[Smallc]

Maybe you should read the part where it says:

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

and,

PART II

RIGHTS OF THE ABORIGINAL PEOPLES OF CANADA

35. (1) The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.

(2) In this Act, "aboriginal peoples of Canada" includes the Indian, Inuit, and Metis peoples of Canada.

(3) For greater certainty, in subsection (1) "treaty rights" includes rights that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired.

(4) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, the aboriginal and treaty rights referred to in subsection (1) are guaranteed equally to male and female persons.(17)

That kills any argument that we can ignore treaties, the Royal Proclamation1763, or pre-existing aboriginal rights.

IT was known that there would be conflict in some of the charter decisions. That is the reason that sections 1 and 33 were created. What is says in the charter in every other section is not the final word, it is those two sections that hold the real power. Giving away all of the land or paying trillions of dollars as you earlier suggested, would not be justifiable in a free and democratic society because it would severely impact the lives of the rest of the population.

Even the charter is not in black and white.

[charter.rights]

IT was known that there would be conflict in some of the charter decisions. That is the reason that sections 1 and 33 were created. What is says in the charter in every other section is not the final word, it is those two sections that hold the real power. Giving away all of the land or paying trillions of dollars as you earlier suggested, would not be justifiable in a free and democratic society because it would severely impact the lives of the rest of the population.

Even the charter is not in black and white.

You might want to read the Charter.

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

This means that aboriginal rights trump the remainder of the rights anywhere else in the Charter.

It also means that when the Royal Proclamation 1763 set out the way that lands and resources were to be acquired by us, anything else is illegal. It also means that the rights to land that were not properly ceded to the Crown as described in the Proclamation, belong to First Nations.

The trillions of dollars that is owed to First Nations is the result of the mishandling of trusts that the Government of Canada inherited. It is a legal duty imposed on government to take care of and pay interest on an account, in every way that they have the same responsibility to manage EI or Canada Pension, which we all contribute to.

Beyond the Charter right that trumps all the rest of our rights, this mostly boils down to a legal issue since the Royal Proclamation 1763, treaties and toerh agreements have been entrenched in the supreme law of Canada. We are bound at the highest level to return land and compensate for misplaced trusts.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That is crap! Those are all your opinions, and those all all in debate before the courts. You need to get off the glue dude. Reality may be scary for you but lets not try to go attempting human flight.

Get a grip on reality dude. The nation neither has trillions to give away nor are they likely to forfeit the land titles of citizens to your cause on your say so.

[AngusThermopyle]

We are bound at the highest level to return land and compensate for misplaced trusts.

So do you honestly believe that we're going to dissolve Canada by bankrupting it and handing it all over to one small group?

If you do then I hate to tell you that you and your friends are in for a very major disapointment, it just aint going to happen.

So just suck it up buttercup, your shrill whining is not going to produce the results you fantasize about.

[charter.rights]

So do you honestly believe that we're going to dissolve Canada by bankrupting it and handing it all over to one small group?

If you do then I hate to tell you that you and your friends are in for a very major disapointment, it just aint going to happen.

So just suck it up buttercup, your shrill whining is not going to produce the results you fantasize about.

A trust is a trust. It exists and is accruing interest by the day. Why would you think that a trust can just be wiped out without an account and interest paid?

Do you think for a minute that if the government suddenly said "whoops! we no longer have any money in EI or Canada Pension and you lose..." that we would stand idle on it? And do you think the courts would accept that they no longer have an obligation to us under either program just because they say so?

[AngusThermopyle]

Do you think for a minute that if the government suddenly said "whoops! we no longer have any money in EI or Canada Pension and you lose..."

Actually thats pretty much what would happen. the liberals lifted millions from EI and never repaid it, nor will they.

So you do believe that the government will destroy Canada in order to appease a handfull of people. Dream on. Like I said, it's not going to happen.

It's taken months but I'm glad to see you showing your true motives, the destruction of Canada. I knew you would eventually.

[charter.rights]

Actually thats pretty much what would happen. the liberals lifted millions from EI and never repaid it, nor will they.

So you do believe that the government will destroy Canada in order to appease a handfull of people. Dream on. Like I said, it's not going to happen.

It's taken months but I'm glad to see you showing your true motives, the destruction of Canada. I knew you would eventually.

Stopping running the Chicken Little racket.

Interest on all trusts, can be paid out yearly, monthly or weekly without breaking the bank. The trick is to pay what is owed on the interest- forever if need be - and quit underpaying the trust interest. By underpaying the government gets us further in debt, which is the reason the trust is so big in the first place. Had previous governments paid off interests as they were accrued wth actual trust would not have been out of control.

The reality is that if the government paid natives the interest that is owed, it is likely that natives would not be the burden they are today. Instead they would have modern infrastructure, health and educational systems, self-sustaining and self perpetuating. They would be contributing to our local and national economies to the tune of hundreds of millions every year. They would be involved in resource exploration and extract, not as workers but as owners and investors.

But no. The evil colonial empire can not stand to see native people at par with ordinary Canadians. They would rather make them subservient and dependent. They prefer them under educated and under employed.

Why? Because it is easier to steal more land and resources and keep the interests on trusts if natives haven't the means to prevent the government from their policies of continuing genocide and assimilation. Seems you like what the government does. Makes me wonder why you would willingly be a member of the Armed Forces defending freedom when the very government you defend is pursuing oppression.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Nobody stole anything. Natives gave away their lands and their culture. Now they want these things back. Ever hear the phrase Indian giver?

[AngusThermopyle]

forever if need be

Once again you reveal your true motivation, not to mention disconnection from reality.

Do you honestly think anyone would pay another group "forever"? Whats wrong with the other group motivating themselves and making improvements to their lives? Why must they be paid "forever' in order to survive or prosper? Has there never been another group of people at a severe disadvantage who have managed to prosper without the benefit of handouts "forever"?

If you think any sane person in this country would agree to pay another group of people "forever" then you really are severely disonnected from reality.

[Oleg Bach]

Once again you reveal your true motivation, not to mention disconnection from reality.

Do you honestly think anyone would pay another group "forever"? Whats wrong with the other group motivating themselves and making improvements to their lives? Why must they be paid "forever' in order to survive or prosper? Has there never been another group of people at a severe disadvantage who have managed to prosper without the benefit of handouts "forever"?

If you think any sane person in this country would agree to pay another group of people "forever" then you really are severely disonnected from reality.

The more clever tribal leaders are gangsters and rich - the average Indian is an intergenerational prisoner of war that did not take well to captivity and is dying.

[AngusThermopyle]

the average Indian is an intergenerational prisoner of war that did not take well to captivity and is dying.

I agree with you to a degree in that statement.

Not all of them are dying though. Many times in the past I've mentioned that I work with some really great ones, have quite a few who are good friends and know others that I have great respect for.

These are my "token Native friends" (as another poster has claimed) the one thing they all have in common is a desire and the motivation required to better themselves and improve their lives. They don't sit around wallowing in self pity, they get out there and do what they have to do in order to improve their lives, and they are succesfull.

Those are the ones who aren't dying, they're embracing the future and moving into it instead of clinging to a dead past that no longer exists and actually can not exist any more.

Unfortunatelly they appear to be quite outnumbered by the ones who want to be paid "forever" and live in the past "forever".

[Smallc]

You might want to read the Charter.

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

This means that aboriginal rights trump the remainder of the rights anywhere else in the Charter.

It also means that when the Royal Proclamation 1763 set out the way that lands and resources were to be acquired by us, anything else is illegal. It also means that the rights to land that were not properly ceded to the Crown as described in the Proclamation, belong to First Nations.

The trillions of dollars that is owed to First Nations is the result of the mishandling of trusts that the Government of Canada inherited. It is a legal duty imposed on government to take care of and pay interest on an account, in every way that they have the same responsibility to manage EI or Canada Pension, which we all contribute to.

Beyond the Charter right that trumps all the rest of our rights, this mostly boils down to a legal issue since the Royal Proclamation 1763, treaties and toerh agreements have been entrenched in the supreme law of Canada. We are bound at the highest level to return land and compensate for misplaced trusts.

And again: 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

I can do it too, over and over and over.

[charter.rights]

And again: 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

I can do it too, over and over and over.

And again... nothing can abrogate native rights - not even reasonable limits set out in Sect. 1, or those set out in law.