We pay while Indians live in luxury

[JCAN]

So what are you whining about? you and countless others who say the natives have it good loaded down with cash? Such sweeping generalizations by narrowminded rightwingers who haven't a clue what they're talking about....what about Bill-C31? Non-Status? You probably havent heard of that before rambling your lightbulb yap off...it would be just like me making the sweeping generalization that all women married to rightwing men live in danger because deep deep down in that so-called man lurks another scott peterson...

C-31 is about non status because they lost their status due to things like marrying non Native men and Those who lost their membership in a band through sexual discrimination in the past, can apply to regain membership. that is a fact so read on instead of as usual seeing only what you want to.

I guess I forgot that there has never been an example of wife abuse in the native culture HA HA HA! pick up a paper go to a reserve or walk down main street Winnipeg. You are farcical, and if it wasn't for your red skin you might see your red neck.

[DangerMouse]

C-31 is about non status because they lost their status due to things like marrying non Native men and Those who lost their membership in a band through sexual discrimination in the past, can apply to regain membership. that is a fact so read on instead of as usual seeing only what you want to.

I guess I forgot that there has never been an example of wife abuse in the native culture HA HA HA! pick up a paper go to a reserve or walk down main street Winnipeg. You are farcical, and if it wasn't for your red skin you might see your red neck.

List all the other ways status was lost Mr Lightbulb?

[charter.rights]

List all the other ways status was lost Mr Lightbulb?

Let's start him out....

Status was lost because:

The government told people they no longer had status they wanted to work off the reserve, go to post secondary school, or wanted to enter into a professional organization. It was also lost by children of women who married non-natives as was mentioned, in addition to the children of men and women who could not prove through government documents that they were born on a reserve. Given that many natives in the early 1900's were born at home with midwives and were never registered with government birth certificates a large lot were enfranchised. Status was also lost by moving to the US to work, unless there was a continuous remider they were members of the reserve and listed on the band rolls during census. Many natives managed around this by making sure their names were listed. Lastly natives were enfranchised because they did not have the correct blood-quantum.

By enfranchising natives the government essentially was telling them that they were no longer native. That is tantamount to handing a piece of paper to a black man and telling him he could no longer call himself black. Fortunately this kind of racist policy was reversed under Bill C-31. Being a native has nothing to do with status and everything to do with who you are, and where you are from. I even know some non-native people that have status because of who their married.

[JCAN]

Let's start him out....

Status was lost because:

The government told people they no longer had status they wanted to work off the reserve, go to post secondary school, or wanted to enter into a professional organization. It was also lost by children of women who married non-natives as was mentioned, in addition to the children of men and women who could not prove through government documents that they were born on a reserve. Given that many natives in the early 1900's were born at home with midwives and were never registered with government birth certificates a large lot were enfranchised. Status was also lost by moving to the US to work, unless there was a continuous remider they were members of the reserve and listed on the band rolls during census. Many natives managed around this by making sure their names were listed. Lastly natives were enfranchised because they did not have the correct blood-quantum.

By enfranchising natives the government essentially was telling them that they were no longer native. That is tantamount to handing a piece of paper to a black man and telling him he could no longer call himself black. Fortunately this kind of racist policy was reversed under Bill C-31. Being a native has nothing to do with status and everything to do with who you are, and where you are from. I even know some non-native people that have status because of who their married.

This did not start out trying to pick apart bill c-31 it was a simple statement that within the bill and the bands there is discrimination of Natives by Natives due mostly to gender and how some like to ignore this fact. and it is still happening today. The main difference between being an African American or even Native American and being Native Canadian is that the African American's and Native Americans is they get nothing beyond what they earn themselves it is interesting because yet they seem to do well.

The fact is is that Natives are more responsible for keeping the public out look on them the way it is not the white male and they need to accept responsibility for it.

My point is and has always been there were wrongs done hundreds of years ago but not by any one living today and we have paid all that needs to be considering there is no proof of ownership to this land by the natives. It is fact that they did not originate here either.

If I was here first is the argument it is no better then I took it and you cant take it back. So we all need to be realistic about a solution to this problem and to continue this 2 tiered system is not. The simple solution to ending the racism is to treat all people the same, most of the animosity towards Natives is because of the benefits that are given them and not the rest of the Canadians regardless of race or gender.

I have said it before and I am saying it again they should be happy and appreciate what they have now because if it gets pushed to much further the rest will get fed up the Asian's, African's, and the whites of Canada because like it or not they will loose it all.

If they realize it or not it is all races of Canada paying for them and it is simply not right. If it were, there would be families perpetually put in jail for a murder or a theft 1 person committed.

Edited May 21, 2008 by JCAN

[charter.rights]

This did not start out trying to pick apart bill c-31 it was a simple statement that within the bill and the bands there is discrimination of Natives by Natives due mostly to gender and how some like to ignore this fact. and it is still happening today. The main difference between being an African American or even Native American and being Native Canadian is that the African American's and Native Americans is they get nothing beyond what they earn themselves it is interesting because yet they seem to do well.

The fact is is that Natives are more responsible for keeping the public out look on them the way it is not the white male and they need to accept responsibility for it.

My point is and has always been there were wrongs done hundreds of years ago but not by any one living today and we have paid all that needs to be considering there is no proof of ownership to this land by the natives. It is fact that they did not originate here either.

If I was here first is the argument it is no better then I took it and you cant take it back. So we all need to be realistic about a solution to this problem and to continue this 2 tiered system is not. The simple solution to ending the racism is to treat all people the same, most of the animosity towards Natives is because of the benefits that are given them and not the rest of the Canadians regardless of race or gender.

I have said it before and I am saying it again they should be happy and appreciate what they have now because if it gets pushed to much further the rest will get fed up the Asian's, African's, and the whites of Canada because like it or not they will loose it all.

If they realize it or not it is all races of Canada paying for them and it is simply not right. If it were, there would be families perpetually put in jail for a murder or a theft 1 person committed.

No. The point is you haven't a clue about what you are talking about. WE keep natives in the spotlight because those among us like to pick on someone with a different skin colour.

Do natives have problems? Yep. But they are simply a mirror of what is wrong in our own society amplified by poverty and the residential school syndrome that has wrecked generations. There is no more discrimination among First Nations than there is in our own towns and cities. Your believing there is, is only a result of your detached and uninformed backward opinions.

[JCAN]

No. The point is you haven't a clue about what you are talking about. WE keep natives in the spotlight because those among us like to pick on someone with a different skin colour.

Do natives have problems? Yep. But they are simply a mirror of what is wrong in our own society amplified by poverty and the residential school syndrome that has wrecked generations. There is no more discrimination among First Nations than there is in our own towns and cities. Your believing there is, is only a result of your detached and uninformed backward opinions.

You should remember just because you say it does not make it so. You can argue the point all you want but I am as informed if not more so then you.

You seem to base your opinion's on wrongly interpreted things you read I am talking about what is actually happening things me and people like me see without own eyes, hear with our own ears. I am neither racist or backwards but I also refuse to take racial slurs from natives or any other race and not say something back.

There are plenty of Native and people of other races with the same opinions and views on these subjects.

you can continue to believe what you want but at the end of the day the facts will come out.

-Natives have no more right to this land then anyone else

-They did not originate here

-they are given special rights that they abuse

-they are as racist as any other race

-they blame the white man for the problems they create

-the rest of the races in this country all get along hard to cry racism

-they will always hire 5 under qualified Natives before they hire 1 qualified white male

-we owe them nothing

-YOU IGNORE THE BASIC POINTS PUT FORWARD BY ALL THAT YOU CANNOT REFUTE.

[charter.rights]

-Natives have no more right to this land then anyone else

You might want to read the Charter of Rights and Freedoms sect. 35. It proves you wrong.

-They did not originate here

You might want to study a little archaeology. The earliest evidence of aboriginal occupation of that Americas dates back 40,000 years. There is likely going to be earlier finds since for a long time anthropologists believed that aboriginal people migrated here across the Bering Strait, or the Beringer Land link. However, since finding older sites they have generally modified their base belief and have started looking for more sites to confirm earlier occupations did in fact exist. Native people are as much "from this place" as Europeans are from Eurasia.

-they are given special rights that they abuse

Aboringal rights are "inherent" and "apparent" They wer not given those rights by us. The Charter recognizes those rights as being peremptory to our laws and customs.

-they are as racist as any other race

No. This is a failed argument of most racists. Native people do exercise their rights against the Anglo-European white male cadre, but this does not make them racists.

-they blame the white man for the problems they create

Since you have obviously never met a native person, this statement makes me laugh. They don't blame the "white man" for all their problems. They do blame colonialism, residential schools and cultural genocide for a great majority of social-psychological problems in their communities. HOwever, the majority of native people are as responsible and self sufficient as anyone of us.

-the rest of the races in this country all get along hard to cry racism

This very statement points to a strong indication that you are in fact a racist.

-they will always hire 5 under qualified Natives before they hire 1 qualified white male

Another racist statement not worth responding to.

-we owe them nothing

Yep we do. We owe them the cash we have been holding onto all these years, royalties on resources we have stolen on unceded lands and cash in lieu of land claims. We also owe them land that was never ceded to the government as required by the Royal Proclamation 1763 (legitimized by the Charter). So again you are so wrong that you make a liar look like a sweet lady.

-YOU IGNORE THE BASIC POINTS PUT FORWARD BY ALL THAT YOU CANNOT REFUTE.

You lose, loser.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The simple fact is that the mouth pieces speaking on this forum in favour of the native position have misrepresented the entire case. They come across as racist little brats drunk on the greed of their own delusions. To argue that one group should have any more rights than another in this country is a fools errand. The citizens of this country are a hell of a lot smarter then some on this board would seem to think. Even the elected representatives of this nation have more intelligence than some folks on this board would give them credit for. No representative will ever give away the farm, if for no other reason we can afford to bribe them more than the natives can. In addition no judicial panel or appointed arbitrator will ever rule in favour of displacing citizens ever again in this country. The politicians won't sign the deal and the courts will not take away the lands. Only a fool would ever believe otherwise.

What myself and many other citizens would like to see is an equitable solution, but that won't happen either because of people like some on this board who would serve to cause public unrest through their political positions.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Jerry J. Fortin

[AngusThermopyle]

You might want to study a little archaeology. The earliest evidence of aboriginal occupation of that Americas dates back 40,000 years. There is likely going to be earlier finds since for a long time anthropologists believed that aboriginal people migrated here across the Bering Strait, or the Beringer Land link. However, since finding older sites they have generally modified their base belief and have started looking for more sites to confirm earlier occupations did in fact exist. Native people are as much "from this place" as Europeans are from Eurasia.

You might also want to do so. Actually your time frame appears to be out since the latest evidence would indicate one wave of imigration was the Solutrean migration, this is thought to be about 50,000 years old. There is strong evidence that they influenced and bred with the other waves. One very compelling piece of evidence is that Solutrean stone tool working techniques are almost identical to Clovis techniques, just far older. DNA evidence indicates that the Solutrean migration originated in Europe.

Recent DNA evidence also indicates migrations from Africa, Polynesia and Tahiti. The North American natives have been traced back to Siberia, it is believed that apart from some limited breeding with the denizens of South America they are pretty much confirmed as being of Siberian origin. This migration is commonly accepted to have occured far later than the Solutrean, African and South Pacific migrations.

So the question of who was here first (a juvenile question) is rather moot as there were at least several migrations from various parts of the world. This more recent information does however show the "name" First Nations to be somewhat misleading and innacurate.

Niow I'm going to be really nice to you and do something you are incapable of doing, I'm going to provide you with a link to a highly reputable source. If you spend time here you can learn far more than I have time to talk about.

Good Source

Edited May 21, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[charter.rights]

You might also want to do so. Actually your time frame appears to be out since the latest evidence would indicate one wave of imigration was the Solutrean migration, this is thought to be about 50,000 years old. There is strong evidence that they influenced and bred with the other waves. One very compelling piece of evidence is that Solutrean stone tool working techniques are almost identical to Clovis techniques, just far older. DNA evidence indicates that the Solutrean migration originated in Europe.

Recent DNA evidence also indicates migrations from Africa, Polynesia and Tahiti. The North American natives have been traced back to Siberia, it is believed that apart from some limited breeding with the denizens of South America they are pretty much confirmed as being of Siberian origin. This migration is commonly accepted to have occured far later than the Solutrean, African and South Pacific migrations.

So the question of who was here first (a juvenile question) is rather moot as there were at least several migrations from various parts of the world. This more recent information does however show the "name" First Nations to be somewhat misleading and innacurate.

Niow I'm going to be really nice to you and do something you are incapable of doing, I'm going to provide you with a link to a highly reputable source. If you spend time here you can learn far more than I have time to talk about.

Good Source

Ya ya ya. There are some anthropologists who suggest that migration actually happened the other way from Alaska to Bering to Siberia.

Also using mitochondrial haplogroups as a basis for migration is extremely suspect. The theory put forth suggests that because some guy in India had red hair and blue eyes and another in Mongolia had red hair and blue eyes, the Mongolian must have migrated from India. It isn't very accurate and a pretty wild "out there" theory.

New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago

The occupation of the Americas still beats the occupation of Europe.....by nearly 10,000 years.

Prehistoric Bones Point to First Modern-Human Settlement in Europe

Modern humans began moving into Europe about 40,000 years ago. At the time, the Neandertals (also called Neanderthals) were still present in Europe. The two groups lived alongside each other until the Neandertals disappeared around 28,000 years ago.

[JCAN]

You might want to read the Charter of Rights and Freedoms sect. 35. It proves you wrong.

You might want to study a little archaeology. The earliest evidence of aboriginal occupation of that Americas dates back 40,000 years. There is likely going to be earlier finds since for a long time anthropologists believed that aboriginal people migrated here across the Bering Strait, or the Beringer Land link. However, since finding older sites they have generally modified their base belief and have started looking for more sites to confirm earlier occupations did in fact exist. Native people are as much "from this place" as Europeans are from Eurasia.

Aboringal rights are "inherent" and "apparent" They wer not given those rights by us. The Charter recognizes those rights as being peremptory to our laws and customs.

No. This is a failed argument of most racists. Native people do exercise their rights against the Anglo-European white male cadre, but this does not make them racists.

Since you have obviously never met a native person, this statement makes me laugh. They don't blame the "white man" for all their problems. They do blame colonialism, residential schools and cultural genocide for a great majority of social-psychological problems in their communities. HOwever, the majority of native people are as responsible and self sufficient as anyone of us.

This very statement points to a strong indication that you are in fact a racist.

Another racist statement not worth responding to.

Yep we do. We owe them the cash we have been holding onto all these years, royalties on resources we have stolen on unceded lands and cash in lieu of land claims. We also owe them land that was never ceded to the government as required by the Royal Proclamation 1763 (legitimized by the Charter). So again you are so wrong that you make a liar look like a sweet lady.

You lose, loser.

You can study archeology all you want it does not change the origin no matter when it happened or weather the Natives came from Africa through Asia or Europe they did not originate here.

I grew up in North Western Ontario around plenty of reserves went to school with plenty of native people hell I live in Winnipeg for Christ sake so I will bet I know more Native people then you do

As for all your counter points they were lame and unfounded as usual so your childish insults bother me not.

[gc1765]

-Natives have no more right to this land then anyone else

-They did not originate here

You didn't originate here either...so can I have your house?

[charter.rights]

You didn't originate here either...so can I have your house?

Exactly. And by rights he didn't originate in Europe either. Must of been one of those late blooming knuckle draggers from Ethiopia.

[charter.rights]

You can study archeology all you want it does not change the origin no matter when it happened or weather the Natives came from Africa through Asia or Europe they did not originate here.

I grew up in North Western Ontario around plenty of reserves went to school with plenty of native people hell I live in Winnipeg for Christ sake so I will bet I know more Native people then you do

As for all your counter points they were lame and unfounded as usual so your childish insults bother me not.

Actually that amply explains why you make racist statements.

BTW All those lame counter points proved you wrong. So you might want to re-examine your arguments if lame counter points can still prove you wrong. Doesn't say much for you point of view now does it.....

Edited May 22, 2008 by charter.rights

[gc1765]

Exactly. And by rights he didn't originate in Europe either.

True. Perhaps we should head over to Europe and declare the land as ours, since the people who live there didn't originate there and therefore don't have any claim to the land.

[JCAN]

True. Perhaps we should head over to Europe and declare the land as ours, since the people who live there didn't originate there and therefore don't have any claim to the land.

You are more than welcome to try but I might remind you that you could not keep your own land so good luck.

I will also remind you that it is stupid thinking and comments like that that you all resort to once you have been proven wrong on to many of your points. So get over it and move on to something productive.

[JCAN]

Actually that amply explains why you make racist statements.

BTW All those lame counter points proved you wrong. So you might want to re-examine your arguments if lame counter points can still prove you wrong. Doesn't say much for you point of view now does it.....

they did not prove me wrong that is why they are lame. get a clue before you open your mouth.

[JCAN]

Exactly. And by rights he didn't originate in Europe either. Must of been one of those late blooming knuckle draggers from Ethiopia.

you might want to watch that racist tone Mr holier than thou. I never said I originated from Europe and I have never asked them or anyone else to support me either. once again you fail with a weak attempt.

[JCAN]

You didn't originate here either...so can I have your house?

If you paid any attention you would no we are past that about 200 years or so but if you would like to come and try to take it I welcome you. but I really don't think you need it because I am probably already paying for the one you are in.

I would think the difference today is societal evolution but that topic seems to have a tough time here due to a lack of understanding of the concept

[DangerMouse]

If you paid any attention you would no we are past that about 200 years or so but if you would like to come and try to take it I welcome you. but I really don't think you need it because I am probably already paying for the one you are in.

I would think the difference today is societal evolution but that topic seems to have a tough time here due to a lack of understanding of the concept

Ahh another lil kid rightwinger emerges---jst after Borg graduated from 40 watt lightbulb to 60 watts and lil night light like JCAN comes along The cycle of idiots continue

[Who's Doing What?]

You might want to study a little archaeology. The earliest evidence of aboriginal occupation of that Americas dates back 40,000 years. There is likely going to be earlier finds since for a long time anthropologists believed that aboriginal people migrated here across the Bering Strait, or the Beringer Land link. However, since finding older sites they have generally modified their base belief and have started looking for more sites to confirm earlier occupations did in fact exist. Native people are as much "from this place" as Europeans are from Eurasia.

40,000 or 500,000 years doesn't change the fact "Natives" did not originate here.

Aboringal rights are "inherent" and "apparent" They wer not given those rights by us. The Charter recognizes those rights as being peremptory to our laws and customs.

No. This is a failed argument of most racists. Native people do exercise their rights against the Anglo-European white male cadre, but this does not make them racists.

This is just funny. I went to a pow wow a fwew years ago and all I heard was about the "red path" being the "right path" and how the "white Path" was evil and other garbage. Natives are at the very least among the most racist groups in Canada.

Since you have obviously never met a native person, this statement makes me laugh. They don't blame the "white man" for all their problems. They do blame colonialism, residential schools and cultural genocide for a great majority of social-psychological problems in their communities. HOwever, the majority of native people are as responsible and self sufficient as anyone of us.

So the ones who chose to join society instead of bitching from the sidelines are doing well? GO FIGURE!!!!!!!!

This very statement points to a strong indication that you are in fact a racist.

Another racist statement not worth responding to.

Funny to hear someone who is advocating one race's rights over the rights of all others, scream the term racist at every opportunity.

Yep we do. We owe them the cash we have been holding onto all these years, royalties on resources we have stolen on unceded lands and cash in lieu of land claims. We also owe them land that was never ceded to the government as required by the Royal Proclamation 1763 (legitimized by the Charter). So again you are so wrong that you make a liar look like a sweet lady.

So let's go through the books.

Every dime ever spent on anything Native against every dime ever owing to a native. My bet is that the difference is minimal and almost non-existant.

[charter.rights]

40,000 or 500,000 years doesn't change the fact "Natives" did not originate here.

This is just funny. I went to a pow wow a fwew years ago and all I heard was about the "red path" being the "right path" and how the "white Path" was evil and other garbage. Natives are at the very least among the most racist groups in Canada.

So the ones who chose to join society instead of bitching from the sidelines are doing well? GO FIGURE!!!!!!!!

Funny to hear someone who is advocating one race's rights over the rights of all others, scream the term racist at every opportunity.

So let's go through the books.

Every dime ever spent on anything Native against every dime ever owing to a native. My bet is that the difference is minimal and almost non-existant.

What a joke. Wake up!

Oh..and let me explain to you the significance of the "red path" versus the "white path". A native tradition the Medicine Wheel has 4 primary colours: white at the top representing the north, cold, individuality, the physical aspect of self and a whole lot more. At the right is the colour yellow representing the the east, water, the emotional aspect of self etc. On the bottom is the colour red which represents the south, sun, warmth, social interaction and the thinking aspect of self etc. And lastly on the left is the colour black (sometimes deep blue) which represents the west, death, the spiritual aspect of self etc. When one follows the "red path" they are walking in warmth using thinking to guide them and gather others on their journey towards enlightment. Going on the "white path" which has nothing to to with race, is about being a loner, walking in coldness and living by physical means. The paths are polar opposites with one representing walking away from life and the other embracing it. Your understanding of that teaching is about as perverse as your terribly vitriolic thinking.

If you do that math, by the time stolen land is paid for, misappropriated trusts are returned and royalties on stolen resources are paid, there isn't enough money in Canada to repay them. Getting peanuts over the years from our government hardly even makes a dent in what we owe. That for you is the sad reality. Too bad you can't accept the fact.

In the legal scheme of things, you are right. Going back 40, 000 or 50,000 years doesn't matter. Natives only need to go back 400 years to prove they were here first and all the land is theirs. And here's were it gets sticky for us because according to the law, we have to prove we legally obtained the land - not stolen, not cheated and not borrowed and never returned. That in itself is all the proof they need.

However, the argument that JCAN was making was that natives are not from here. In fact there are more from here than we are from Europe. So in that context he is wrong and so are you. Being here 50,000 years ago forward is considered "being from here" anyway you slice it. Hell immigrants children that came here only 20 years ago are considered "being from here" today.

Edited May 22, 2008 by charter.rights

[AngusThermopyle]

If you do that math

Rather ironic when in another thread you proved that you don't even have a basic grasp of "sandbox" math. You should try to stay away from mathematical arguements.

In the legal scheme of things, you are right. Going back 40, 000 or 50,000 years doesn't matter

Okay, lets take that as a given.

However, the argument that JCAN was making was that natives are not from here. In fact there are more from here than we are from Europe. So in that context he is wrong and so are you. Being here 50,000 years ago forward is considered "being from here" anyway you slice it. Hell immigrants children that came here only 20 years ago are considered "being from here" today.

It would appear you contradict yourself directly at this point. So, does it matter or not? Who set the time as 50,000 years for something to "matter", I've looked but can't find any such statement from any reputable source.

Another irony is the fact that you discredit a source then turn around and use the same source as your proof of statement, not really a technique designed to garner credibility for yourself.

Actually the Geographic DNA project is recognized as ground breaking, a Rossetta stone if you will. Because you have no understanding of the Genome project does not discredit it, in fact the use of Human DNA as an identifier has become pervasive in not just our society but our entire world. As always it is based on the Scientific Method and as such will withstand scrutiny by the finest minds on the planet, much less the scrutiny of yourself.

Edited May 22, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[charter.rights]

Rather ironic when in another thread you proved that you don't even have a basic grasp of "sandbox" math. You should try to stay away from mathematical arguements.

Okay, lets take that as a given.

It would appear you contradict yourself directly at this point. So, does it matter or not? Who set the time as 50,000 years for something to "matter", I've looked but can't find any such statement from any reputable source.

Another irony is the fact that you discredit a source then turn around and use the same source as your proof of statement, not really a technique designed to garner credibility for yourself.

Actually the Geographic DNA project is recognized as ground breaking, a Rossetta stone if you will. Because you have no understanding of the Genome project does not discredit it, in fact the use of Human DNA as an identifier has become pervasive in not just our society but our entire world. As always it is based on the Scientific Method and as such will withstand scrutiny by the finest minds on the planet, much less the scrutiny of yourself.

No. Being that M.DNA is recognized as "ground breaking" means that people are jumping on the band wagon without proper scientific discrimination. And like I suggested it is no more valuable than connecting 2 dots and believing that the rest of the universe is connected in the same way.

There is no contradiction. The "their not from here" argument was raised by JCAN. I merely proved him wrong - that being from here was as valuable to the argument as suggesting that Europeans weren't from Europe either. Either you can accept both premises or discount both. LIke I said the only important legal argument is who was here before the settlers.

[JCAN]

No. Being that M.DNA is recognized as "ground breaking" means that people are jumping on the band wagon without proper scientific discrimination. And like I suggested it is no more valuable than connecting 2 dots and believing that the rest of the universe is connected in the same way.

There is no contradiction. The "their not from here" argument was raised by JCAN. I merely proved him wrong - that being from here was as valuable to the argument as suggesting that Europeans weren't from Europe either. Either you can accept both premises or discount both. LIke I said the only important legal argument is who was here before the settlers.

The fatal flaw in that statement is the the Europeans are not asking the other inhabitants to pay them any sort of restitution, the Natives are.